The friday night passed I stopped by a bar, to see a friend in Melbourne, Australia. ( 161 ) On leaving the premises, the security stopped me and tried to physically take my M6, when I refused they became abusive and rough. "You won't leave with that camera....F.. this..F that, etc." Their reason, paranoia, from the drug activity, ego, who knows, if they knew it was a leica, perhaps I could see their point. No, just a camera, or me I guess. I'm not realy a physical person, but I stood my ground, I've been in worse situations and darker cities than this, to lose it to these two. I was assaulted, beaten, kicked and thrown onto the street. Real animals. When the police arrived there were no witnesses, just two smiling security guards and one laughing door bitch, who told police it was others outside the bar who attacked me. (Nice) When should a photographer give up his camera. Has anyone had similar incidents. What would you do now. The police say I have no evidence, other than bruising and cuts. Any ideas. And no, although I tried, only one photo was taken, and it is black.

-- 161 (161@hotmail.com), June 03, 2001

Answers

A very tough situation, and you have my sympathy. It sounds as if you managed to keep the camera. I wonder if offering to provide the film from the camera would have appeased them, and been not too bad on your side, if there were no priceless frames. I had a friend relieved of his Leica at knifepoint in New York City, but that was simple robbery. I don't understand your comment "if they knew it was a Leica, perhaps I could see their point." When it's your Leica or your life, obviously you give up your Leica. I frequently carry my camera under my armpit, under a jacket, with the strap on the opposite shoulder. I also have a Canonet and Yashica T4, both of which can capture great images in dicy situations. In this country (USA) you could go to the considerable expense of bringing a civil action which would also cost your assailants some time and money defending; but I really don't encourage escalation of this skirmish into a war. You might contact the owner of the establishment, who may be equally thuggish, but under legal doctrines which I believe are common to both of our countries, is responsible for the conduct of his employees. So you could see a local attorney, or just consider it some kind of lesson learned, and move on with your life.

-- Phil Stiles (Stiles@s-way.com), June 03, 2001.

Have to agree with Phils answer. Unless I was being highly paid to be in a dangerous situation (and even then I'd let the camera go and try to salvage the film, which is what I would be being paid to bring back), I'd let the camera go in an instant. That's what insurance is for, and you could always pursue it afterwords with their management. If in one of the falls you sustained, you could possibley have cracked your head, and heaven forbid died (it happens more often than you imagine). What use would your camera be to you then.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), June 03, 2001.

Thanks Phil, I'm still learning that lesson, somtimes I think I should have some how calmed the whole situation down, and other times I feel angry that I didn't defend myself and my rights more. There was simply no time to even consider giving them the film, ( there was no communication other than f..c..a..etc ) they relished the power. But yes, perhaps that would have calmed them, things happen so fast that the mind goes into self defence mode. As for claiming damages, yes that could also end up with me paying alot in court costs if I lose. That comment about seeing their point, sarcasm. We all love leica, if only they did. I have to laugh, otherwise I'll start to think really nasty things.

-- 161 (161@hotmail.com), June 03, 2001.

I agree Bob. But how much is your leica worth to you. If I felt mortally endangered I would let them take it, for sure. It was such a sudden and violent attack, it seems in retrospect almost surreal. But I see photos and read stories of photographers who risk alot more than me, what is that line, and when should you cross it. It's a very grey area. Shouln't we photograph what we want, ( does everyone ask for permission ), do we photograph first and deal with the consequences later. Perhaps it all comes down to experience, and everyone gets that education on a very personal level.

-- 161 (161@hotmail.com), June 03, 2001.

Were there no other witnesses at all? You could sue the bar and and the security guards. It may be difficult to have charges laid as you have to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt but in a civil case, you do not have the same burden of proof. You only have to prove that it was likely that they caused your injuries. Personally I would offer the lawyer all the monies recovered so that they would go the extra mile to bring some measure of justice to the situation. If you do decide to go this route, it is important that you document your injuries now while you still can.

Not so cheerily,

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), June 03, 2001.

1981, on the way to the stadium for a Rolling Stones concert in early afternoon. Assaulted by a small group of photogenic punks because I had taken their pictures without asking for permission!!! They wanted the camera, I offered to give up the film, opened the camera and pulled it out. I was suddenly hit on the face by something sharp (knife? ring? I don't know), saw my blood dropping on my hands and ran away as fast as I could. Never thought I could run so fast with an open camera banging against my chest. A little scar on my cheek still reminds me how careful I should be.

Maybe I should have given up the camera at once. Anyway, it was stolen a couple of years later.

-- George (gdgianni@aol.com), June 03, 2001.

Unfortunately John, the only other witness was the considerably large but silent dint and scuff marks in a car door, that I was thrown at, and curled up against while I was kicked. The police are suspicious, but without real proof the police beleive it to be heresay. My word against theirs. It's crazy really, and sickening.

-- 161 (161@hotmail.com), June 03, 2001.

Sorry to hear about such an unfortunate, horrible incident. To me, no "thing" is worth your life.

If I were in your shoes and had an open pocket book, or just wanted satisfaction, then I would hire a good local lawyer with references in that area. Afterwards, I would ask that attorney to find a private investigator (preferably an ex-police officer) to find out who these "low lifes" were. I have a childhood friend who has who is head of security for some Fortune 500 companies (ex- narcotics detective) and close FBI friend who believe this is the way to go in these kinds of situations. Then I would sue the bully personally and the bar for damages. Even if I lost, I would make them spend money. You would be doing a good deed for humanity.

This sort of animal has always been afraid to get hit in their pocketbook. And the bar should do a background check on who they hire. Next time, this low life bully will think twice about his actions. That's what I would do. I detest a bully.

I hope you are doing better and sincerely hope that this does not leave a mental scar in your life.

Eddie

-- Edward Steinberg (es323@msn.com), June 03, 2001.

What the hell were you doing in a dive like that? And with a camera yet! If it was to take pictures: 1) it was stupid, and 2) you were invading the privacy ot the other patrons in private property -- I think they had every right to demand your camera. Your additional act in not complying was even more stupid. I hope you weren't hurt too badly, and that you learned something from the experience.

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), June 03, 2001.

It would be interesting to know if the police would be interested in going back and doing the whole thing over again, but with a couple of them quietly hanging around to watch and intervene. It sounds like the kind of place that would be stupid enough to do the same thing twice.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), June 03, 2001.

I Hope you are doing OK. How are your injuries? I too have faced hostile people, crazy people and have been mugged before and it was always very disturbing.

"When should a photographer give up his camera?"

A photographer should give up his camera whenever he/she feels physically threatened.

When I am not taking pictures I am a dedicated martial artist. I train five to six days a week for mental and physical exercise and for self defense. The more power and skill I develop the more I realize how easy and how seriously we can be injured. It only takes a few seconds for the whole thing to start and finish with someone on the floor needing an ambulance. It doesn't matter how skilled I am because I know I could be faced against someone better. I could also have had a few drinks (in a bar) or I could be sick or injured to begin with--there are too many factors to the outcome. No camera, watch or wallet is worth the risk.

You were extremely lucky. Though I can understand if you don't feel that way right now. What happened to you was wrong. It was unjust. It wasn't fair. You didn't deserve it. What happened was wrong and what also could have happened could have been a tragedy. You were able to leave and tell about it instead of being in a hospital in Melbourne. You were lucky.

I don't care if other photographers fought so and so and survived this or that and got a Nobel Prize photo. Your life, your health, and your ability to survive and care for the people you love is more important. I do admire people who are willing to risk their lives for a cause greater than themselves. But recklessly risking your life for a camera isn't worth it.

What would I do now? I would try to find a positive result from the negative event and learn from the situation. That is how we gain wisdom and find meaning to the events in our lives. I would try to be grateful that I wasn't more seriously hurt. I would try to understand my priorities in life and in a conflict situation. I would examine how I behave, feel, and react in a conflict. The aspects of self defense are not limited to a mat, a gym, or a dojo. They include an awareness of your surroundings and people as well as communication skills for angry and hostile people in conflict resolution. I think everyone should learn these skills.

I would not seek vengeance. I have a policeman in my family and I know that they wouldn't have done more than what they did for what was in their eyes just a bar fight resulting in a few cuts and bruises. Police don't go looking for more confrontation if everything has already settled down and ended. I believe lawyers probably cannot help you also because you have no witness and the police report was useless. I am sure there are lawyers reading who could offer better advice though. Anyway, the more you seek vengeance the more you can't let go, and the more they will continue to hurt you. If you really want revenge then let them continue being the way they are and have their lives suffer for it. Those two guys and the "door bitch" will get theirs. Don't waste more of your life on them.

There was no glory in standing up to them and becoming their standing target. The little red dot isn't your family crest and you don't need to protect Leica's honour with you life. Almost everyone who has responded has told you to give up your camera. The only time I would fight is if my loved ones were in danger or if they give me no other option. Lord have mercy on MY soul if that happens.

Sincerely, Bill Lee

-- (Bill_Lee@telus.net), June 03, 2001.

It's true Bill. Thanks for the advice. The more I think of it, the worse it becomes. Letting go, moving on and learning a valuable lesson in the process. I thought I had fairly good conflict resolution skills, but that wasn't a factor, because I simply didn't feel seriosly threatened until I was hit. I was shocked. Someone is always faster, stronger etc. The mind gets confused, mistakes are made.

-- 161 (161@hotmail.com), June 03, 2001.

Of course, none of us can condone the abuse that you received, but really, taking photos surreptitiously in a dark bar....Well, I can think of several reasons why the patrons, who the security probably serve, would not want their faces taken in a pix. Rather than viewing the situation as unlucky, you should think that indeed you were quite lucky, because if drugs or other issues were involved, you could be dead.

-- Paul Nelson (clrfarm@comswest.net.au), June 03, 2001.

Bill, your answer comes pretty close to what we counselors call "blaming the victim." He may or may not have used the best judgment in taking the camera into the bar, but no one deserves to be assaulted. He didn't say he was taking pictures in there, as I read it. Anger is a perfectly normal first reaction to being bullied and threatened. It's easier to be rational for those of us who weren't there. Besides, he didn't feel significantly threatened until he got hit. You wouldn't give up your M6 to just anyone who asked for it, would you? I think maybe the question was not whether or not to give up the Leica, so much as, at what point or under what circumstances, is it appropriate to do so? "161" seems to be in conflict over whether he did the right thing in refusing to be an overly willing victim.

To 161, I would say that I think you did as well as most of us could have in such an unstructured and unexpected situation. If you find yourself having any bad dreams, distressing recollections of it, flashbacks, sleep difficulty, or appetite loss any these symptoms go on for more than a week or 10 days, you ought to see a mental health professional because this is a very treatable condition you can move on from. email me if you like for more info on that. As the wise man said, this too shall pass . . .

Sincerely,

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), June 04, 2001.

Bob is absolutely right. You are not to blame for what happened because under no circumstances should a person be assaulted and battered. I am sorry if any part of my response came accross as blaming you. You did just fine since you were able to leave and talk about it. I also agree with Bob's advice about seeking help if you continue to be troubled by the event. In the past I rehearsed the events of when I was physically confronted over and over again to analyze what I did wrong too. It is normal to do that, but sometimes it is helpful to have a professional help us figure things out. "Maybe I should have done this, or said that..." You didn't ask for it to happen and was able to get out in one piece so over all you did really well. I would bet my house that half the martial artists that I train with would have done worse--and that's being conservative.

Sincerely, Bill Lee (not Bill Mitchell)

-- (Bill_Lee@telus.net), June 04, 2001.

Thanks Guys. It's difficult to understand. I'm getting over it, but I do see it again and again, playing over in my mind. Sometimes the memory of it changes, I see a different face, hear someone else. I feel jumpy. And avoid eye contact with strangers, where before I would examine. I felt the adrenaline, and then it was beyond me as things escalated. Right and wrong. What is it. I simply take my Leica with me everywhere. I wasn't intending to photograph, it was more instinctive. Perhaps I was too certain of myself. I wouldn't give tmy M6 over to anyone, (unless they had a weapon) and l'll still take it with me. Perhaps l'll camoflage it more, or hide it on my person. It's already taped up. This is very a steep learning curve.

-- 161 (161@hotmail.com), June 04, 2001.

This is why I respect good documentary photographers. There is always a danger going into situations dealing with strangers, one never knows what one may come up against, or how someone is going to take their personal lives being intruded upon. Though documentary is not my forte, I have been working on a three year project portraying the goings on in local pubs, cafes, etc. Though I've gotten a few "NO'S" I usually ask someone in management before hand if they mind my shooting. I've found that often if they say 'no' it's because they know their clentelle enough to know they won't appreicate being photographed. '161' your statement that you'd not give up your Leica unless someone had a weapon - remember you talking the chance the weapon is concealed (most lowlifes don't actually advertisedat they are carrying), setting yourself up for the weapon being drawn when tempers are already hot. No camera is worth you life.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), June 04, 2001.

I had an similar experience several years ago. Not nearly as violent, just some thugs who thought I had taken their picture. They didn't want the camera (luckily a not so expensive point and shoot) but demanded the film, and broke the camera getting it.

The experience played over and over in my head, like a movie, with variations about what I should have, or might have, done. I was embarrassed, humiliated, angry, frightened, I suspect you know the mixture of feelings. I never told anyone about it, and I find I am still uncomfortable doing street photography, which used to be my main interest.

I would urge you to find someone you can talk to, professional or not, and talk about it as much as they can stand, before it "sets".

-- Scott Paris (asparis@ix.netcom.com), June 04, 2001.

,There is a tendency to feel embarrassed, ashamed, and humiliated over being a victim, whether of a mugging, sexual assault, or other type of victimization. The victim believes it is his or her fault, and that if s/he tells, someone will criticize or tell the victim it was her fault, or his fault. This actually happens, as when lawyers ask rape victims in court what they were wearing, and weren't they really "asking for it." The shame and guilt, and the fear of being further shamed, keep the victim silent. That's why kids don't tell anyone they were molested, until they are 30 or 40. "161" did the right thing by telling, and so did Scott. Telling is when healing begins.

The nervous system is designed to predispose the body for fight or flight in an emergency, and not for rational thought. The hypothalamus tells the pituitary to release ACTH, which tells the Adrenals to release adrenalin. Fight or flight. That's that. With experience, we can intervene in the process, and make alternative choices. But how many of us have experience in such matters? I think hurt pride in being bullied, having one's power taken away plays a part, interfering with ratioanl thought. 161, now that you have had this experience, what do you think you would do if it ever happens again? That's what counts.

Sorry, I forgot there were two Bills. I only meant Bill Mitchell.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), June 04, 2001.

It's difficult to say Bob. Perhaps I would avoid confrontation, try to calm everyone down. Perhaps explain a mistake has been made. Or I'd run really fast. I wouldn't stand my ground unless I could support it. The anger I feel will pass, alot of people support me, and I'm better for it. I won't let those thugs dictate my actions or my way of life.

-- 161 (161@hotmail.com), June 05, 2001.

No camera is worth your life. Act responsibly.

Godfrey

-- Godfrey DiGiorgi (ramarren@bayarea.net), June 05, 2001.

Yes, but Godfrey, he didn't know he was in danger. Envision the following scenario:

Security: "You're not leaving with that camera"

You: "Oh, OK. Here you are. All yours. Enjoy."

I DON'T THINK SO! You would protest, wouldn't you? You'd question, argue a bit. I think that's all "161" did. So let's not make a victim feel bad for doing what anybody would have.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), June 05, 2001.

Bob I think here your being a bit simplistic and trying to avoid the 'victim guilt' syndome at all costs. I've been in one or two situations that could have led up to what happened to 161. Often there is an escalation of tempers that is quite recognizable, and it is at this point one makes the decision - am I going to be a hero over my cameras, or do I say "screw it, that's what I pay my insurance company for". In my opinion the only time it is worth taking a chance of getting beat is when you or your family is at risk. I feel badly for 161 and what happened to him, but many times the 'victim' does get to share a bit of the guilt. If we weren't taught in out society that 'things' were so important, we'd maybe not have this thread at all.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), June 05, 2001.

161 has never said exactly what the bar situation was, but I'll bet it wasn't his grandmother's 80th birthday tea party. One must be prepared to take responsibility for his actions, and if he goes into a biker bar, or a gay bar, or a hangout for lowlifes, or lots of other places and tries to take pictures of the patrons he should expect trouble. What is done to him may be highly illegal, but having legal recourse for getting his head bashed in is of little comfort if he's brain-damaged or dead. Better to avoid situations in the first place, but judging from his subsequent posts, I question whether 161 has learned.

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), June 05, 2001.

Learning Bill. Learnt. Being a photojournalist I simply take my leica with me eveywhere. Bars, boardrooms, protests, factories, hospitals etc, etc. I took my new digilux into some real trouble recently and not a word, from really scary guys. People simply didn't understand it. Maybe thats what the early leica users felt. I felt camoflaged. But I really can not afford to avoid taking a camera with me. I have to, I love making images, but it's also my job. I'm no papparazzo, but I know where they are coming from. It's what I do. If they had asked for the film, I probably would have protested too, maybe now I'd approach that situation a little more precaution. I think the security guy wanted to be a hero and pull the film out in front of me, and say there you go son, and get out of here with good speed.(But I doubt he would have known how to open an M6 and just thrown it against the floor and said ooopps.) Just imagine if he got fustrated. Bill, what is a dangerous situation. At home, at work, at play. Anything and everything has that potential. We all have choices, be they war zones or playgrounds. I'm learning to read and evaluated, adapt and possibly overcome obstacles. Your lifestyle can not be negotiable, otherwise imagine the world we would live in. We are given freedoms, we take it for granted, but there is a big differnece between restricting it and manipulating it to suit yourself. I take responsibilty for my own actions, if I put myself in a dangerous situation so be it, that doesn't make me wrong for protecting my rights or myself. It is complicated, but I feel justified in saying I won't let thugs dictate what I do.

-- 161 (161@hotmail.com), June 06, 2001.

161, unfortunately the above post was the first time you have stated that you were 'working' (unless by photojounalist you mean that is your hobby). Yes this does make a difference, and I've stated before that one of the only times you would be justified for what you were doing was if you were being highly paid to be there. But that is why there are books like 'Requiem' out there (the book of all the photojounalists from southeast Asia that didn't come back). But if that is the case, then I actually feel a little less sympathy for you. IF you were being paid, you probably knew the risks (or should have). Under those circumstances you really don't have a right to complain. As someone stated earlier (and I have been in instances like this), if you end up in a biker bar, a club where drugs may be dealt, or some such thing, pretty well anyone is going to realize their 'personal' rights will fly out the door

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), June 06, 2001.

Bob, few photojournalists I know are - highly - paid individuals. Try wedding photographer. You'd be lucky to pull an average wage after a year producing stories. Those stories are highly researched pieces, for publication. ( Not candid snapshops, for my own pleasure) And your rights should never be discounted, regardless of the situation. No one is above the law. You may pay a price as the consequences of your actions, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, like I was. But that doesn't justify what happened. ( That I knew what would happen ) . You might as well say, single women shouldn't go anywhere alone, or it's okay for a prostitute to be raped. Its disgusting to say you have no right to complain, that you got what you deserved. No one deserves to be treated like that.

-- 161 (161@hotmail.com), June 06, 2001.

Some very useful advice for everyone here and some interesting points, so thank you 161 for having the courage to talk about such a horrid experience; you have raised very valid issues for a lot of people. I hope too you will find the strength and support to move on. Not everyone is a sadistic moron after all. But it does take time. Being assaulted is scary. When someone attacked our car with a baseball bat some years ago, having mistaken us for someone else, that was scary. Don't worry too much about getting even; just thank God you are still alive. The first thing is to get out. Don't worry about property. Things can generally be replaced. People can't. However, try to spot useful details that you could describe to police later on. The second point is that violence can happen anywhere, even in a genteel town like Melbourne. But exercising caution and not taking an expensive camera into a likely trouble spot - or indeed going there at all - seems prudent too. Doing a self-defence course might be a good idea. It would help you come to terms with what happened and teach you valuable skills. You would hope never to need them, but it would be nice to have them anyway. Finally, few people seem to have mentioned the vulnerability or otherwise of Leica. In my experience, few people apart from other photographers (not usually regarded as an especially dangerous and desperate bunch of cut-throats) actually recognise an M series Leica. Most people think it just looks like an old-fashioned camera. Big SLRs and camera bags, video cameras, and digital cameras (which may cost more than an M6 anyway) appear to be more tempting targets for thieves. So don't be scared about taking your Leica out and about. Just watch how you go! And Vaya c

-- David Killick (Dalex@inet.net.nz), June 07, 2001.

Some useful points to ponder here for everyone, so thank you 161 for having the courage to talk about such a horrid experience; and I hope you find the support and strength to move on. But it takes time. Being assaulted is scary. When someone assaulted our car with a baseball bat a few years ago, having mistaken us for someone else, that was scary. The first thing is to get out. Things break and can usually be replaced. People break and can't. Don't worry about getting even, just thank God you are still alive. However, try to spot details that you could describe to police later on. Doing a self-defence course might help you come to terms with what happened and give you useful skills. You would hope to never need them, but it would be nice to have them. The second point is that violence can happen anywhere, even in a genteel town like Melbourne. Don't let one bad experience sour you. Not everyone is a sadistic moron after all. But exercising caution and not straying by yourself into a likely trouble spot with an expensive camera - EVEN if you are a highly paid pro _ would seem prudent too. The pros at my newspaper don't. It's just not worth it. Few people seem to have raised the vulnerability or otherwise of Leica. In my experience, few people apart from other photographers (not generally regarded as an especially dangerous and desperate bunch of cut-throats) actually recognise an M series Leica. Big SLRs and gadget bags, video cameras, and digital cameras (which may cost more than an M6 anyway) seem more tempting targets for thieves. So don't worry about going out and about with your Leica. Just watch how you go. And vaya con Dios

-- David Killick (dalex@inet.net.nz), June 07, 2001.

One final though 161 (then I'll leave this thread as it seems to be going round and round). Yes, what happened to you was terrible and above the law. But if you are a photojounalist (and know what you are doing), then you do have some responsibility. Are women who are attacked to blame? Of course not! But if a woman chooses to hitchhike, at 3:30pm, in 'hooker alley' (this happened in our city a couple of months ago), gets driven into the country and raped.....by no means did she deserve it, but I would accuse her of really, REALLY poor judgement. As for your statement of what happened not being within the law......again as a photojounalist, if you go to a war zone, get shot (which is usually against the law), you made the choice. The problem I have is that in your first post you didn't say you were in a nice 'mom and pop' establishment, but in a place where you say there is security (what for?), and that maybe the drug dealing caused some of the paranoia. Come on......if you couldn't see that you were taking a risk photographing in a place like that, then maybe you should try weddings. As a note, I of course do not kwow what the laws are in Australia, but in Canada and most of the U.S. it is illegal to photograph without permission in a bar. Anyone knows that people tend to do stupid things when drunk, and if you take a photo of them doing said stupid thing (maybe out boinking the secretary), your going to be hasseled.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), June 07, 2001.

Geez, 161, I'm really glad that you're not too badly hurt; never mind the Leica, it's your life that matters. If, for any valid reasons (such as for a news story), you have to do this again, have a friend or a hired bodyguard who's big and menacing and preferrably trained in martial art to shadow you quietly while you're doing you work. And when in trouble, the best defence is to run like crazy! Please take care of yourself.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), June 10, 2001.