Hello, I have been searching the net, and the archives and need a little more information on CL. 3 days ago I desperately bought a milking alpine doe as company for my too loud dairy doe and her kid who I've only had 3 weeks and needed a herdmate. The herd thing is working fine, but the new doe has mismatched teats, and three, quarter-sized flat swellings on her mid to lower rib cage area behind her right front leg. The seller is out of town for three weeks, so I am stuck figuring this out for myself. The firmest swelling is no longer flat, but about the size of a quarter, and starting to raise up a bit. Is this a common injection site? Could this be a shot reaction? There is no evidence that it's a cut or scrape. Could it be a bruise from getting butted? If this is CL, is there anyway to know before it ruptures? I thought CL was only in lymph tissue, but have no idea if there is lymph tissue over the lower rib cage.

Now about that teat, her right teat feels stringy inside, and the outside has two small but distinct hard flat patches close to the udder just beneath the the skin. The teat is twice as wide where it attaches to the udder than the other one, and it milks faster.

The seller had tooooo many goats, (60+) and many of them had horns, I'm hoping the teat thing is an old injury, and the rib bumps are head butt bruises. her milk is clean according to my filter and the Calif.Mastitis Test. If the teat thing were CL, would CL infected milk show up on the CMT? I'm real happy with her trainability, and her turning a twosome into a herd, but am a real worrywort about something like CL so am trying not to get attached to this doe, neither am I drinking her milk raw.

Please let me know what you think, any advice appreciated as these are my first dairy goats.

Carmen Allan, California

-- Carmen Allan (callan@pronet.net), June 13, 2001

Answers

Response to New,Could this be CL?

Hi,

I can't find the bookmark for Onion Creek ranch, suzzanne G who owns the herd has a wonderful informative article on Cl that includes pics of the sites that can be CL, I know it'll come up on a search, thats how i found it. meantime, here is another site for information: http://www.jackmauldin.com/cl.htm

The place you described is right behind the front leg? I don't think thats a CL site, but I am not exactly positive. I was just reading in an old dairy goat journal about strains of bacteria that are similiar to CL, had me confused. So i posted it to the goat world forum, if you'd like to see the names of the bacterias, go to http://www.goatworld.com then to the forum.

As for the CMT test and Cl, probably not is my guess but i could be wrong. I would be careful though til you know. One way to see is to withdraw some of the fluid from the lumps. It may very well be a hemitoma (sp) too caused by an injury.

About her teat, she sounds as if she may have had mastitis at one time or either a horribly unbalanced udder that sometimes is caused by dam raising.

good luck, hope this helps.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), June 13, 2001.

The only way to know if it is indeed CL is to have some of the material inside the abscess analysed and no it is not expensive. Make sure your material is only sent to Pullman Washington 509-335- 9696 who will send it to UC Davis (I don't have their addy). Lymph glands run down the neck, around the arm pits, legs, udders just like ours do. Neck up close to the ear and jaw, and behind the first leg are probably the most common locations. If you have old scars in any of these places than I would suspect CL. If the places on the udder are old CL scars, or extra teats cut off :( than she could also have CL inside the udder which infects the milk, goat kids who drink it and CL is zoonic to other stock and you. Yes this could very eaisly be old injuries from scars, but the abscess would not now be growing. Worms, Cocci, CAE and CL are usually found after sales due to stress. The doe is stressed do to the move to your farm. Worms, Cocci, undiagnosed CAE and CL then are activated in the system. CL abscesses grow at alarming rates, from nothing to golf ball size in a week, CAE will cause swollen knees and hocks, and hard udders at the new farm when the doe freshens the first time. Worms and Cocci, held at bay at the old farm multiply rapidly in the stressed goat. This is why no matter whom you purchase from you should quaranteen. Worm the goat, test. If you allow one of these abscesses to burst on your place it will infect your other stock. And the real problem with CL is that abscesses can burst when they are the size of erasers, something you can't see with the very long haired winter haired breeds.

Goatworld.com has a great photo of some rip abscesses. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 14, 2001.

I used to work on a petting farm where the goat herd had CL. The abscesses don't always occur where the books say they will. I've lanced abscesses from ribcages before. Just before the abscess is going to burst, the doe will begin to lose the fur from the surface of the abscess. You can gently tug at the fur on the abscess daily and when it starts coming out easily, know that you have very little time before the abscess ruptures. If you decide to keep the doe you'll want to quarantine her at this time and lance the abscess. Wear gloves. (The few cases of CL in people that have occurred in this country did so from the pus getting in wounds, usually from skinning animals with CL.) Get someone to hold the doe while you make a cross cut in the abscess. Thouroughly clean the cream cheese-like pus from the abscess. The abscess should then be cleaned with peroxide, then packed with betadine soaked sponges until you can't do it any more (it is too healed to pack). The farm vet alternately recommended using Granulex, but since it was more expensive than Betadine and peroxide I never got to try it. Treating with pennicillin if the abscess is large is not a bad idea either. Keep in mind that you will need to pasteurize your milk from now on if you keep this doe. Even if she doesn't have an abscess rupture, you don't know what is going on internally. She may be shedding CL bacteria from internally ruptured abscesses. CL is what convinced me that I need to pasteurize my milk. Even if your does appear clean (no visible abscesses) and test negative to CL, false negatives can occur. The same goes for other zoonotic diseases, such as Johnnes. Working at the petting farm educated me well in nearly all the nasty diseases that a goat can get (and it was a good, clean operation....that bought most of its animals at auction or from dealers or bought culls or took donations). My father-in-law is a semi-retired dairy extension agent who, in his own charming, gruff manner said I was crazy to get into goats because the d#!@% things carried so much disease! Well, he's right, I am crazy, but that has nothing to do with my decision to get goats!!! However, between my petting farm education and my father-in-law's insistance, I pasteurize my milk and sleep well at night!

-- Sheryl in ME (radams@sacoriver.net), June 17, 2001.

Thank you Bernice, Vicki and Sheryl. Well, this lump isn't changing any, so I am just watching and waiting. It feels like it may be a splinter, as it is more rectangular than round. The two lower ones have not changed. After getting to know her a little better, and getting a closer look at her teat, it looks like a minor surface scar with some thickening on the top outside of her teat, possibly an old poorly healed laceration. I shaved her underside and leg-pits today and looked carefully with a mirror, there were no bumps or scars.

My husband did a web search on CL in humans, and found an English parliament document reference to 13 known cases worldwide since the mid 80's (most of which where related to sheep shearing). It helped put it into perspective a little for us i.e., caution but not panic.

Anyone have a good recomendation for a vet book for goats? I've read the handful of generic goat books at the local library, but I really need a current, in depth, illustrated vet book for goats, complete with wormer dosages, and pics of common health problems, etc.

Our first two goats (Had them all of three weeks now) are a Kinder doe,and her unweaned doeling who appears to have a milk goiter which seems to be going down. (sweating over that being CL too!) The doe is fairly quiet (try to please the neighbors:) but the kid has a loud voice and enjoys using it, which is why we bought the alpine in such a hurry. We are trying to find a breed that is smaller, and quiet. It's all valuable learning for us. The kinder milk is so rich and sweet, but the alpine hardly makes any noise at all, even when she thinks she's hollering! Whereas the kinder (especially the baby)is hollering out of boredom at 5:30am. I have checked, there is nothing wrong with her, she hollers with her mouth full of hay. I think she misses me. Any ideas on when she will grow out of this? She is 2 1/2 months now, and was mostly dam raised, but bottle fed for maybe a week or so by her breeder.

Again many thanks. Carmen California

-- Carmen Allan (callan@pronet.net), June 18, 2001.

Oh my... something that actually out screams a nubian, LOL:):0 and a quiet alpine. I'm glad things are getting straightened out for you. As for websites for good goat info try the sanaandoah site and nationla goat handbook both are which on line. i lost my bookmarks to them when my computer crashed But you can find them by doing a websearch. As for a good vet book, try the merek manuel, i don't have a personal copy but I've hear its great. there is also another that Vivki suggests but forgot the name. take care.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), June 19, 2001.

Goat Medicine it is for sale in all the goat catalogs. caprinesupply.com hoeggers etc. A good investment at I think $80 now, but well worth it. Definetly for the serious breeder. For the real newbie caprinesupply.com has their book Goatkeeping 101 and their followup book now. With all the information on saanendoah.com and the other websites, you could download this information into a 3 ring binder and have an excellent book of your own for just the print costs.

Glad she is coming around! Are you sure the squeaking Alpine just hasn't temporarily lost her voice? :) And of course Bernice!! Kinders are part Nubian :) To bad you didn't post here before buying, we all would have steered you towards LaMancha's!! Smaller, quieter etc. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 19, 2001.

Hi, I just wanted to give you gals some closure, after all the help and advice you have given me:) Sorry to be posting so late, but things have been pretty wild trying to keep the goats happy, quiet and fenced! I have been keeping an eye on the "bumps" and one has disappeared, one still feels fluid, and the hard one still feels like a knot around a splinter or something, no increase in size. I took a look around at some LaMancha's, some were definitely *not* quiet, but I found a couple of *really* nice quiet 4yr old does from tested herds, so I'm thinking I can get past the ear thing, and go with a quieter breed. While looking around at LaMancha's a breeder showed me a kid with a spur teat, and this got me thinking perhaps the alpine doe had a spur teat removed, which would account for the teat being larger at the top, and the strange scar and thickening, In a couple days the Alpine breeder will be back and I can ask her, maybe she will be willing to take her back. I decided to start by selling the Kinder doeling, as she is too loud, no matter what we do. After her dam has forgotten about her, I will have a better idea of how noisy she is herself, and will know if I should get one LaMancha to be her buddy, or replace her altogether. Once again, thanks for all the help and advice, I'm following up on the reading recommendations.

-- Carmen Allan (callan@pronet.net), July 01, 2001.

Carmen - I used to think La Manchas were ugly freaks, too . . . till I got one. Now, I have 6. I'm addicted! They're the BEST! Take the plunge . . . you won't regret it!

Regards, Sarah

-- Sarah Sanders/MI (chilechile@hotmail.com), August 12, 2001.