Hi, I'm new to MARP and before uploading a score I did I would like to make sure it's not achieved with a technique/strategy some (esp. the present record holders) might disapprove.

I achieved a conspicuously high score on Ghouls'n Ghosts (world) by repeating several times the last level of the second round.

I've read that "point leeching is discouraged", but I don't know whether what I did falls into this practice.

At any rate, it should be stressed that repeating the last level does NOT make you gain points more easily: on the contrary, it entails big risk.

Please let me know if my hi-score is welcome or not.

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), June 19, 2001

Answers

This recording will probably be DQ'ed because you are not allowed to continuously repeat levels if you have not died. You must proceed through the game. This has been discussed for many other games and I will add this as a general rule. Thanks for pointing it out.

-- ***PL*** (laffaye@mail.com), June 19, 2001.

Please upload your recording. Many would like to see it - me for instance :-) It sounds like your case is borderline. If you are continually exposing yourself to risk then you can argue a case that the inp should be accepted in my view.

Here's a flaw with I see. Consider the following. A good player plays straight through, two rounds and finishes and gets score X. Another player not as good, plays through, stuffs up at end of 2nd round and has to repeat last level and gets a score Y>X simply because they stuffed up! The poorer player now gets better leaderboard points due to the forced repetition. Stupid. I would prefer to see the game banned if it is marathonable or find another way of rating the game. These sort of inconsistencies are rife on MARP.

Anyway, I believe MARP is about players showing game mastery - submitting their best games. Best means different things to different people. It is our chance to shine - to show off. Your recording might not receive leaderboard points but will represent an achievement that many on MARP can appreciate. If nothing else it will furnish proof that the game difficulty should be bumped up or the game banned for leaderboard points.

Cheers, Tim

-- Tim Morrow (tmorrow@bigpond.net.au), June 20, 2001.

This indeed is a grey area and the inp needs to be seen. I think leeching and repeating the level would not be in this case if you really "play" the level out and die when there is nothing "new" to do in that level and do not sit in a single area and scam on the same automatic generating monsters/points, the final decision is up to the marp masses and pat.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), June 20, 2001.

Just uploaded the .inp file (hope it works).

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), June 20, 2001.

I just watched your recording, and I must bow down for your amasing skill at that game! It is not easy do get points that way on Ghouls and Ghostīs, and it involves a great risk.

The only bad thing about the recording is that you should have finished it off :=) (I saw that you tried, but accidently got the spear instead..)

Anyway, with a finish on top of this it would look even better.

Regards, and Welcome to Marp btw:=)

ps if the recording is legal or not, I let the editors decide:=)

-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), June 21, 2001.

yeah the skill is awesome, and the fatal mistake to open a chest or kill a pot bat next to the finishing prize was pretty nasty. I'd have to vote not to allow this recording because you didn't finish it, but it's a hard thing to say since the play is very well; no sustained leeching anywhere except maybe a short repetativeness killing a handfull of the hunchback skeletors in the spewing staglitite level, which only gave you an extra few thousand at most.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), June 21, 2001.

Thanks for watching my game. The main reason why I decided to upload it is to raise a discussion that helps to establish the rules for this game.

If leeching, i.e. repeating *on purpose* last level of round 2 over and over again, is banned, then the only way to get a really high score is to arrive at the end (or just before the half) of a level rich in points (e.g. the 4th and/or the 5th) and sistematically die, making it appear *accidental* (which experienced players can do). The more lives one has at his/her disposal to do so, the higher the final score will be.

As can be seen, this would inevitably lead to a hypocrite as well as childish gaming behaviour: I cannot see how a player could be proud of a hi-score achieved that way (note also what Tim Morrow says about "score x and y").

My feeling, then, is that banning the above kind of leeching creates more problems than it tries to solve. Fortunately, everybody will agree that that leeching is not of the same kind as that of e.g. Commando: it does require skill.

In view of all this, I suggest the following: the notion of leeching should not be applied to this game, i.e. the player is allowed to do whatever (s)he wants in order to earn points, including repeating at will last level of round 2. However, the necessary prerequisite for a score being considered valid is that the game must be finished: this would be both a deterrent (my 601000 points, for instance, would not be valid) and a challenging factor.

Let me know what you think. Regards.

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), June 21, 2001.

Great skill ; but unfortunately once more, scoring of the game spoil it : the more lives you lose the more points you get ; even before your input, best scores were those finishing the game using a max of lifes ... I would largely prefer to watch an input finishing the game in 1 life only (I'm not able to do that but I'm sure you can)

Maybe we should add to all scores a bonus of 1000000 for someone finishing the game with its last life, 2000000 for someone finishing it with 1 life remaining .... (N+1)x1000000 for someone finishing it with N lifes remaining ? It would concentrate players abilities on 2 points : *finishing the game *growing up their "survive instinct"

-- Phil (plamat@club-internet.fr), June 21, 2001.

yeah, that sounds good. though, they might still be able to leech this way, if you leech zombies for ever but then die enough times at the end of a level you will finish the game on the last life and get 1000000.

It seems like we should give a bonus of 1000000 for finishing with out dieing, 500000 finishing with dieing once, 100000 for finishing and dieing only three times.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), June 21, 2001.

Just remember one thing guys, before you set this rule:

I have never seen anyone else beeing able to do that leeching than MKL.

I have almost finished the game once, and I canīt do that leech:=)

Maybe you should talk with some other great ghouls player before? Like Benjos, or Blost?

I mean it is not as simple as the GNG leech with the zombies at level 3...

just my two cents :=)

-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), June 21, 2001.

yeah no question, the recording is definitley skilled play and questionably NOT leeching, just having fun with numbers.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), June 21, 2001.

I've now seen the recording in question. I admit I did lean on the fast forward key (F10) quite a bit towards the end with the many repititons of the final stage (2nd time through).

Firstly, Congratulations MKL on demonstrating excellent skill with this game. You did not quite show game mastery though since you didn't complete the game - I have no doubt you will rectify this trifling oversight shortly :-)

Ghouls & Ghosts is a remarkably well balanced game. The game timer forces you to move on with the game but allows good players to juice extra points in each area before moving on. This is true for all levels except for the last level (before Lucifer). The last level is timed in the same way and forces you to move through the level. However, unless you have the unique 'uber' powerup at the end of the level it sends you back to repeat the level again - with no penalty. And this is where the problem arises...

MKL was able to show that 'in principle' this game is marathonable. Noone has yet demonstrated that it can be done though although MKL has shown that you can play for an awfully long time using this method.

The dip switch settings all provide a 'free life every 70,000' on all difficulty settings as far as I can see. Thus a player only needs to get 'good enough' to earn 70,00 points on average per life in the last repeating level in order to marathon the game. A player can get roughly 30,000 each time through the level (by hanging around until the last few seconds shooting all enemies that appear). Thus a rate of 2 and 1/3 last levels per life is sufficient to marathon the game.

The only decent way I can see around this problem is to reluctantly impose 'special rules' for the game. I suggest a 'maximum number of lives' limit. Perhaps all frees up to 70,000 but none after that despite what the game awards. In this way you effectively have 3 lives to start with and can earn up to 3 more if you reach 70,000. In this way mediocre players will not be effected by the rules. Good players OTOH can go all the way and cycle the end several times if they are adventurous enough but can't use a truckload of lives doing it and sending game confirmer's to sleep. Furthermore, if you choose to 'cycle the end level' then finishing the game should be mandatory to gain leaderboard points.

Finally, in the event that someone shows that they can marathon the game with only the 6 lives, then we can consider whether repeating the last level should be banned and whether to impose the hardest difficulty setting etc.

Cheers, Tim

-- Tim Morrow (tmorrow@bigpond.net.au), June 22, 2001.