A response on my parting shot from CS forum, said that Jesus didn't come to earth and talk about rights, he came and talked about peace hope and love(I am paraphrasing to save myself a trip to get a quote). This is definitely not what our Forefathers thought. It wasn't until sometime in the last 50 years that educated persons in America would even consider making a statement like that. Why? Because the foundation of our nation was built upon the assertions that God(and Jesus is God)endowed us with certain rights. This was the assertion of our forefathers as is seen here in this quote from the first national document ever penned:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," The Declaration of Independence- July 4,1776

To say that Jesus does not recognize our rights, is also to say that he did not create us with them. All of us are given, through the grace of God, certain freedoms that are self evident. God gave us a mouth, therefore we have the right to speak. God gave us life, therefore we have a right to defend it, and to be secure in our persons. These are called natural rights. Natural rights come from God. They do not come to us from the allowance of men. Jesus did not come to allow that we should each tear what God has so graciously supplied us with asunder. He did ask that we subvert our rights at times for God and for our brothers in Christ. This he asked us to do voluntarily, for him. He did not however ask us to live as victims of our government, or to cease our free speech before those who do not know the truth of the gospel. In fact he asked us to go and tell. I read over at CS many times that people were tired of being preached at, but this is just what Christ commanded us to do.

Matthew 10 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10 26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In fact Christ asked us to use our God-given free speech even when our own body was in peril. Christ assumed our free speech, as he is the one who gave it to us. If anything he entreated us not to throw it away, because we were afraid. This is what our Forefathers believe with their hearts, and they pledged their live, their fortunes and their sacred honor to it. They not only pledged, but then kept their word by laying all that they had down for their country. Many of them died, and yet today there are those who believe that God would have had them never speak? I am ashamed of a country and a public school system that has brainwashed people into believing this drivel. How grateful to those men and women I am for the fact that they lived and died protecting my God-given rights. When any society denies the rights of individuals to speak, they seek to quell the creation of God. In the early years after Christ died many Christians died for their right to speak. Steven was stoned. And yet today, there are those who think that as Christian we should just shut up. I'm sorry, I will die before doing that, and I would willingly lay down my life to protect your right s too.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little Bit Farm (littleBit@compworldnet.com), June 22, 2001

Answers

Little Bit -

I agree wholeheartedly with you. I DO have one little protest, though. They DID say "Creator" instead of God. There was a reason for this. Many of those Forefathers were not only Christians, they were Freemasons. As such, they would have not only known but also acknowledged that there were other concepts of God. If Jesus had been the only God known to them, there would not have been such a GREAT need for such detail in the forming of the First Amendment.

A little point that most folks forget is that they also had great contact with, took parts of their governmental model from, and consulted with several of the confederated native tribes in the area when forming their precious documents. Those tribes were NOT Christian, nor did they pretend to be so. However, they DID have the first true democratic (even including women) government on this continent, and perhaps in the world.

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), June 22, 2001.

This was posted on the BTS board and I really liked it.

"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause. The mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." -Wilhelm Stekel

BTW the Declaration of Independence was a great document....so long as you were a white male!

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), June 22, 2001.

"Our Savior was a servant-leader. When people were hungry-he fed them. When they were sick-he healed them. He practiced love and none judgment (except regarding those who judged) I have read the new testament hundreds of times and I see no where that he talked about His RIGHTS"

Perhaps the quote will explain itself..........little bit, some things get distorted in paraphrasing. You could be more careful about what you read and get it correct. I said "His Rights"... I thought we were suppose to be trying to be like Jesus. Perhaps I have completely misunderstood the Bible??? When everything we read and say is so completely "self-centered", I think Christ is very poorly represented.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), June 22, 2001.

Aw Crap, let's play nice. I'm gettin' depressed.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), June 22, 2001.

John, I am sorry if it appeared to you that I came over here to not "play nice". Actually I have lurked here and not found anything to comment on until this person completely "paraphrased" a totally different meaning to what I said. I will try to refrain from lurking here but I have consistantly found this person to distort meanings of what people say to suit a personal agenda and I find that highly objectionable when it is directed at me. She rants and raves about being censored and the freedoms she holds so dear, but perhaps I should post the letter she sent to me when I requested to be on "HER" site. Doreen said it best when she started this site...........We really don't KNOW each other and I seriously wonder about some of the people (and I think you do also since you stated it over on the BTS forum) and whether they are even Christian. I have been so completely embarrassed by the lack of Christian behavior by fellow Christians on these boards that I am just about at the point of leaving forums all together because I am sick of struggling with the anger and dispair I feel over it. Good bye and God be with you.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), June 23, 2001.

Aw Diane it's not that it at all. Or it's not just you anyway. You have as much "right" as anyone to be here, there or anywhere.

I didn't mean to come across as pickin' on you. That was just a generalised "groan" was all.

This latest BS has succeeded in pulling the scabs from old wounds and started the bleeding again. I have people I like and admire at all of these boards. You and lil bit both are included in that.

No, I wasn't even really thinking about the content of, or who the poster was when I gave my "Groan". I was just sad is all to see so many good people get tweaked about "stuff"

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), June 23, 2001.

Well, I'd like to say something on this....the points expressed by LilBit are certainly valid Biblical points, and the points expressed by diane are also valid Biblical points.

I guess that would make things kinda confusing to many people, but I think the Spirit tends to work with different people differently. Also, as to the question diane raised about people being Christian....I have no doubt that when someone consistently steps up and is willing to be attacked by the world for the cause of defending the faith that they are Christian. LilBit certainly does that. Please don't intimate that someone isn't Christian becuase they have a calling that you may not understand, that can only spread hurt, anger, and strife. If you feel the need to seriously exhort a Christian as a Christian, it is Biblical that you should do so in private, because otherwise you harm the cause of Christ. I am not trying to say you can't disagree publically at all, just an admonition for everyone.

Back to the topic!

I agree that the Freedom of Speech is a point that Christians should fight for. Remember that God SPOKE the universe into creation. That in and of itself gives a real jolt to the power of words, huh?

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), June 23, 2001.

Oh gee, here I am again for one reason only. Little Bit, I read what I posted here and realized it does sound like I was refering to you when I doubted the Christianity of some. Please forgive me, that was not what I intended to communicate. Although I strongly disagree with you on many political issues and your personal interpretation of many scriptures, I have never doubted your Christianity.

There have been some really not nice anonymous posts that I do not believe are coming from Christians. Yes, I was spammed with viruses, phorn and ugliness after disagreeing with you months back, and again in the past few weeks. I clearly stated on BTS that I didn't believe it came from you. It is my personal opinion that there are lurkers on these forums that are evil and ugly and those people know who they are and so will the FBI when my son-in-laws and sons are done with them.

I think Doreen made a very valid point about admonishing in private, but it needs to happen on all sides, and when you and I were locking horns on CS I did try and e-mail you privately, but you were using a none functioning address. Respect has been lacking and people with opposing views have been called all sorts of things including being helpers of Satan. I HATE it and am sick to death of it. I love my Savior with all my heart and all my soul.

There is no more darkness on BTS than anyplace else in this world. Jesus gave the great commandment "Love thy neighbor as thyself". Where is that in this ugly garbage that has been posted all over? I do not care to be judged in the flesh, I could never possible get "good enough". That is why HE died for me, in my place. Judge not because when we judge others that is how we will be judged.

Hoot, NEVER did I think it was you posting on BTS.........I am certain that you could not do something like that. Not your style at all.

I will now get OFF my soapbox and go play with my granddaughter in the garden and praise my Savior for giving me another day to live. Blessings to all, and again..........will leave your "turf" in love.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), June 23, 2001.

Doreen

Don't you think that a Christian can be so charged up in their evangelism that they wind up driving away some who are seeking God.

We are to carry the message, but when we start acting and sounding like we wrote it, we can harm the cause.

-- rick K (rick_122@hotmail.com), June 28, 2001.

Rick, yes and no. If a person is seeking God, and God is calling them, He will use whomever is in the person's path. I do think that if a person is just seeking to understand God (with a finite mind)and they encounter very strong and non-withering "Thus saith the Lord God" preaching, they might pull back and question. There's a difference, though....don't you think?

I certainly agree with your last statement. Although I am still a bit confused as to why you addressed the query to me. God bless!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), June 28, 2001.