Someone asked about general health care tips for their dog that won't depend on a vet. Here's how to handle heartworm prevention on your own.

First, GET YOUR DOGS TESTED FOR HEARTWORMS six months after you start this treatment. If microfillaria exist in the bloodstream when you start this (or if you miss a treatment) they won't mature and show up on a test for 6 months. Won't do any good to treat this way if they're already infected, they need a vet's care if that's the case. Won't do any harm (with THIS method, there are other prescription heartworm meds that can kill an infected animal).

Anyway, here goes. This is long but hopefully clear.

HEARTWORM PREVENTION ... in dogs, cats and ferrets.

Did you know people can get heartworm too? Not often, but it can happen.

Remember, I am not a vet, nor do I play one on TV.

Firstly, did you know that you don't have to give the stuff once a month? The actual interval is 45 days. Still its safest to give it once a month - that way a few days slop won't hurt anything, if you happen to forget on THE DAY. With sensitive animals like collies you might want to keep that in mind though, you can actually dose them every 45 days and minimize the risk of reaction.

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/medical/medical-info.01.html#heartworms

To treat your dog for heartworm, the dosage is 6 to 12 mcg per kg (roughly 2.75 to 5.5 mcg per pound). Here's a reference:

http://cal.nbc.upenn.edu/merial/hrtworm/hw_13.htm

For cats, its 24 mcg per kg (about 11 mcg per pound)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/distance/cardio/all.html#Preventative Medication

yes, there's a space in that URL, make sure you pick up the word Medication after the space.

For ferrets, the recommend dosage is 10 mcg per pound (WARNING! This site has graphic necropsy photographs - e.g., icky surgical stuff):

http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc/heartworm.htm

From this site:

"The oral administration of a monthly dose of liquid Ivermectin diluted in propylene glycol is dependable and safe. Simply add 0.3 ml’s of 1% Ivermectin injectable to one ounce of propylene glycol, making a 100 microgram/ml solution. Dose this at 0.1 ml per pound of body weight (10 micrograms per pound) once monthly."

In any case, there's the easy way to mix up a known concentration and dose your cats/dogs accordingly. That is, if you can figure out where to buy propylene glycol.

SO a 23 lb dog would get 23x (2.75 to 5.5mcg) = between 63 and 126 (roughly) mcg of ivermectin. That's 0.63 to 1.26 ml of the above solution. Ivermectin (except for collies) is about as nontoxic as you can get and still have it actually be medicine. Even for collies you are unlikely to see a problem at these dosages, but better safe than sorry when you are self-medicating your pets. I'd suggest sticking with the lower range in a collie.

Dosing according to actual body weight, your dogs are going to be getting less than the dosages that come in the pills like Heartguard, which are for ranges: <25 lbs 68 mcg 26-50 lbs 136 mcg 50-100 lbs 272 mcg

Unless of course your dog happens to fall right on one of the boundary weights. So it would seem that rounding up to the nearest easy-to-measure mark on your dropper or syringe is unlikely to cause any major problems (outside of a susceptible collie at any rate). If the prescription meds have a 68mcg range, a few tenths of a ml are unlikely to be problematic.

A cat weighing in at 8 lbs would get 8x11mcg = 88 mcg, or .88 ml. (Remember, a ml is the same as a cc)

Y'all can figure out the dosages for a ferret on your own.

This is a whole LOT cheaper than buying the dadblasted pills, which require a vet's prescription, while buying liquid ivermectin (ivomec) does not.

Again, not a vet, nor do I play one on TV.

Hope someone finds this useful.

-- Sojourner (sojournr@missouri.org), June 23, 2001

Answers

By the way, y'all give this stuff ORALLY. Don't inject it! It's "injectable" ivermec for cattle but you mix it with the propylene glycol and then give it to your pets orally.

OK?

-- Sojourner (sojournr@missouri.org), June 23, 2001.

What does the propylene glycol do?

-- Sheryl in ME (radams@sacoriver.net), June 24, 2001.

It's a harmless "filler" (not the proper term when we're talking liquids but hopefully its close enough) that gives you an easy way to administer the teeny tiny doses of the active ingredient (ivermectin) that your pets require.

Personally I don't want to try to figure out how much of the 1% solution I need to measure out to get 120 mcg (micrograms) of the active ingredient and then squirt it into the dog's mouth. These are very very small amounts. You're going to leave some in the dropper or syringe, you're likely going to spill a drop or two - its just easier all around to mix it up in solution. 1.2 ml of the premixed solution is much easier to deal with than trying to figure out how to get 120 mcg from the original 1% solution. Syringes marked off in tenths of cc's are commonly available. If you don't make up the solution, the amounts you need to measure directly out of the bottle of the original 1% solution are so miniscule you just couldn't do it.

Trying to figure out how many micrograms of active ingredient are in a ml of 1% ivermec solution (which is what you're starting with) is something I haven't been able to figure out since I left college chemistry far behind lo these many years ago.

I actually did do the math, and it does come out accurately. The vet's instructions from the ferret page simplify the process of dosing your pets immensely. If you mix .3 mls of 1% liquid ivermec with one ounce of propylene glycol you can now easily dose your cats and dogs (or ferrets) using the figures given in the original posting.

-- Sojourner (sojournr@missouri.org), June 24, 2001.

Important: this stuff does not "keep". I don't know how long it's good for after mixing, but you can't mix up a big batch and then keep it around. The shelf life is short after the ingredients are mixed. I did use this method for a while, but found it to be a big hassle. Now I use Revolution for our 25 (Lord, I AM nuts!) dogs, and while it costs like hell, the convenience makes it worthwhile. Revolution covers ALL parasites, internal and external, and prevents heartworm.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), June 24, 2001.

Do I even WANNA know how people can get heartworms? Ever heard of any documented cases? Mosquitoes the culprits? Oh grand. Just what I wanna hear here in the summertime.......Kt.

-- K-K-k-Katie (yarnspinnerkt@hotmail.com), June 24, 2001.

Katie - I don't remember the circumstances or the infection vector, but it is REALLY REALLY rare in humans. All sorts of animals get it (including horses) but the evidence seems to indicate only dogs can propogate it (its "sterile" in other hosts). In people it migrates to the lungs and forms a little nodule that is apparently fairly easily removed.

Here are some references if you're interested:

http://www-rci.ru tgers.edu/~insects/hartw.htm

From From
-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 24, 2001.

Alrighty, screwed that one up. Those typos in HTML are real killers sometimes. Let's try this again:

Katie - I don't remember the circumstances or the infection vector, but it is REALLY REALLY rare in humans. All sorts of animals get it (including horses) but the evidence seems to indicate only dogs can propogate it (its "sterile" in other hosts). In people it migrates to the lungs and forms a little nodule that is apparently fairly easily removed.

Here are some references if you're interested:

http://www-rci.ru tgers.edu/~insects/hartw.htm

From http://www.vetinfo.com/doghw. html

"Yes, humans can get heartworms. Usually in people they do not ever find their way to the heart and pulmonary arteries as they do in dogs. After being deposited into a human by a mosquito, the infective larvae usually develops partially and encysts in lung tissue or inside the eye. The worms can be removed from eyes. When there is a lung infection it may resemble cancer on an X-ray and result in a lung biopsy surgery for the unfortunate human victim. Fortunately, these infections are rare."

From http://www .peteducation.com/parasites/heartworms.htm

"As of 1995, 97 cases of human heartworm disease have been reported in the United States. Except for Texas and Louisiana, all cases have occurred east of the Mississippi River."

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 24, 2001.

Shannon, you are incorrect re the shelf life. The shelf life is 2 years. You do need to keep it in an amber bottle and it certainly wouldn't hurt to refrigerate but I don't think its necessary to do so.

Here is my reference:

http://www.miamife rret.org/fhc/heartworm.htm

I am curious as to why you think it has a short shelf life, if you wouldn't mind sharing that information with me.

Thanks.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 24, 2001.

We mix up a much bigger batch than this, keep it in the fridge and use it for nearly 6 months or now more. I do heed the original container of Ivomectin 1% and always use a bottle with a high shelf life left, when mixing this for my dogs. I have posted our mixture several times, so it should be in the archives. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 24, 2001.

Let me start off by saying it is not my intent to cause dissension or ill feelings, but I feel I must point out some potential problems with Vicki's suggested formulation and dosage for treatment of heartworm in dogs. I hope to adequately explain what those problems are.

Dr. Kemmerer's formula for heartworm treatment, which I repeated in the original message, is to mix .3 ml of 1% injectable Ivomec with 1 oz of propylene glycol. This yields 30 ml of a 100 mcg per ml solution, to be stored in an amber bottle, with a shelf life of 2 years. The recommended dosage of this formulation is 2.75 to 5.5 ml per 100 lbs of body weight. Basically, multiply your dog's weight by 2.75 to 5.5 (anywhere in that range is both safe and effective) and divide by a hundred to get the correct dosage in ml. This formula and dosage EXACTLY follows the veterinary recommended dosages for heartworm prophylaxis.

The formula I found in the archives proposed by Vicki is 14 ml of 1% Ivomec in 86 ml of propylene glycol or sterile water, yielding 100 ml of a 1400 mcg per ml solution. The dosage suggested for this formula is 1 ml per 100 lbs of body weight. If I read this correctly from the archives, Vicki, you are giving your dogs 2.5 to FIVE times the recommended dosage of ivermectin for heartworm prophylaxis.

I urge you to be cautious in your use and recommendation of this formulation. I'll say up front, most dogs would probably tolerate this level of overdosage fairly well, but its an unneccessary risk and could be fatal in some cases. Why exceed the recommended dosage? There's no reason to do so. It's not more effective, it requires you to use more medication (and thus costs more money), and it introduces an unneccessary element of risk into what should be a routine prophylactic treatment.

The recommended dosage for prophylactic treatment of heartworms is 2.75 to 5.5 mcg per pound (6 to 12 mcg per kg). Your formula and dosage recomendation comes out to 14 mcg per pound, or about 30 mcg per kg. This could easily kill sensitive dogs, for example, my border collie mix would be endangered if I dosed her this way and a full blood would likely be killed. It's risky enough giving them the low end recommended dosage, EXACTLY formulated by body weight (as opposed to the one-size-fits-all pills) - but your formula is 5 or 6 times that amount.

Let me show you the math.

1 ml of 1% Ivomec contains 10 mg of ivermectin. See

Ivomec formulation

You are mixing 14 ml of 1% Ivomec into 86 ml of fluid giving 100 total ml of solution.

14 ml of Ivomec means 140 mg (milligrams) of the active ingredient, ivermectin, in 100 ml of solvent. Your dilution is now 1.4 mg of ivermectin per 1 ml of solution. This is equivalent to 1400 micrograms (mcg) per ml of solution.

The dosage recommended in your instructions is 1 cc of this solution per 100 lbs of body weight. Lets make this easy and assume the dog you want to dose actually weighs 100 lbs. Remember a cc is the same as a ml.

So you want to give 1 ml of this solution to this hypothetical 100 lb dog. There is 1400 mcg of active ingredient, ivermectin, in that 1 ml of your solution, so you are dosing a 100 lb dog with 1400 mcg of ivermectin.

The recommended dosage for a dog, by body weight, is between 2.75 to 5.5 mcg per pound of body weight. See

Recommended hemoprophylactic dosage

6 to 12 mcg per kg works out to be 2.75 to 5.5 mcg per pound.

So our hypothetical 100 lb dog should be getting a dosage of at most 550 mcg. You are dosing him with 1400. That's 2.5 times the MAXIMUM recommended dosage.

Like I said, most dogs will probably tolerate this alright, but its an unneccessary risk to overdose with ANY medication. I would not recommend this particular regime be followed when there is an alternative that is both safe and effective, AND exactly implements professionally recommended treatment.

Plus, its cheaper. :D

Not that most vets want you to know you've got an alternative to spending $10 to $20 per month per dog on heartworm tablets... but if you could get one to admit it... they do make a killing on those heartworm tablets. And the once a month prescription only flea and tick treatments too. I had a vet in Puerto Rico who used to write me prescriptions for stuff because he TOLD me I could get it cheaper mail order than he could sell it to me. And he was right! I saved $60 a month buying my heartworm tablets (for 3 dogs) with a prescription via mail order. Sure wish I could find a vet like that state side ... LOL!

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 24, 2001.

Two clarifications

1) In Dr. Kemerrer's formula, that's 0.3, or 3 tenths, of a ml of 1% injectable ivermectin per oz of propylene glycol. That "point" doesn't seem to show up well on the screen. If any one were to misread it and us 3 ml instead of 3 tenths of a ml it would be grossly overdosing. So 3 TENTHS! OK? LOL!

and

2) the link labelled Recommended hemoprophylactic dosage should have said CHEMOprophylactic. Fat finger disease. LOL!

should have bee

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 24, 2001.

My info about the short shelf life came from my farm vet. My DOG vet would only dole out a month's supply of the stuff (he would syringe it up for each dog) at a time, so I went to the FARM vet to ask if she would give me a bottle of the pre-mixed cheapie stuff and just let me figure the doses per dog and give it each month, rather than have to contact the dog vet every month, wait for him to deliver it, etc. FARM vet (who has no vested interest in keeping the stuff from me) explained that DOG vet probably insists on doing it this way because if he were to pre-mix a bottle for me and let me syringe it up and give it as needed, the stuff would spoil from month to month. Well, maybe not "spoil", but it would expire one way or another. She says that once mixed, the chemicals have a short shelf life.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), June 24, 2001.

Shannon, not to malign your vet, but Dr. Kemmerer is a research scientist as well as being a practicing veterinary, and she says when properly stored in an amber bottle the solution will keep for 2 years.

Now if its NOT stored in an amber bottle, or if the expiration date on the Ivomec is less than 2 years, or if it is stored in extremes of temperature, it may very well not last 2 years. But it is definitely not going to degrade in just one months time!

Propylene glycol is a commonly used fluid when making these sorts of solutions. It may very well be the inert component of Ivomec; I don't know for sure, I didn't see it specified on their website. It should actually have MORE of a preservative effect than if you merely mixed it with sterile water.

Even if you throw the stuff out every 3 months - even if you throw it out every MONTH - its still way cheaper to mix up your own solution, especially if you have a large dog or more than one dog. I spent $8 on a 1ml bottle of Ivomec FROM MY VET - its bound to be cheaper from an ag store or catalog. If you're already buying it for your cattle its essentially free for the small amounts you'd need to treat your dog. A whole bottle will make almost 100 ml of solution. I couldn't use that much in a year.

Even if I bought a new bottle of the Ivomec EVERY SINGLE MONTH it would cost me $8 a month to dose all THREE of my dogs, and have most of it left. It would cost me $24 to keep them in heartworm pills for that same amount of time. That $8 bottle of Ivomec will keep me in heartworm meds for over THREE YEARS. Even if I threw it out once a year and started over, I'd STILL be way ahead. Even if I threw it out once a MONTH I'd still be ahead.

Another advantage to mixing it yourself is that you can dose your dogs EXACTLY according to their body weight. I have a border collie mix and its important to me that she not be exposed to the extra risk of a higher than absolutely necessary dosage.

I can tell you that there is no logical reason for the medication to break down once you've made up this solution other than exposure to sunlight (which the amber bottle is supposed to prevent) or other improper storage. Exposure to air wouldn't do it - if that were the case every time you took some out to inject a cow you'd be introducing air into the original bottle and it would start degrading in situ.

But if you are not comfortable doing this, and can afford the higher cost of conventional heartworm pills, then more power to you. It's your pet, and your decision, after all. Not to mention your pocket book! LOL!

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 24, 2001.

8$ for 1ml? You only pay 35$ for 50ml in Jeffers. Least ways that was this last winters cost in my shipment.

Biggest things you can learn on these boards is that everyone does everything differently. Perhpas our dosage is perscribed higher because of living near the gulf? Humidity and water, and the biggest mosquito's you have ever seen? Not a clue really. I certainly can't take credit for the recipe, not only was it given to me by a vet, but I know the SPCA in town uses the exact same recipe and is on pamphlets given out by rescues in Houston. I also know that I am comfortable with this recipe and have used it successfully for years. With bloodtests on my own dogs to know it continues to work.

And whether I am talking goats or dogs with folks, I always give out information I know from personal experience, rather than information so and so gave me or that I have heard. Unless I tell the person straight up I don't have that problem but this is how I would treat it.

So just like worming, and other areas of management you really need to find what works in your area and continue to use it. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 26, 2001.

Vicki, do as you please, but I have been unable to find any indication that there should be any difference in the recommended dosage for heartworm prophylaxis based on area. I have lived in the Gulf area and in fact lived for three years in the tropics in an area where heartworms were absolutely ENDEMIC, and the heartworm dosages recommended by vets are the same as I am using now.

I have provided many, many references that people can check out if they please for the correct and SAFE formulation of a solution for heartworm prophylaxis. These are references that people can check for themselves, and there are more out there if anyone wants to keep searching.

This is not something I just said, or that somebody just told me. I have found it and checked it out for myself. All of my sources are veterinaries or research scientists or both. I have, in fact, worked out the actual concentration in the formulation I found and checked it against the recommended dosages for treatment. I did the math. I did the research. Others are welcome to do the same.

The fact is that the higher dosages you recommend ARE dangerous for some animals, especially collies and collie mixes. Obviously you don't want to consider that. But like you, I will continue to advise people to the best of my ability, and my advice is for people NOT to use the formula you recommend. It is overkill, and potentially unsafe.

I don't doubt its effectiveness - at that high a dosage it'd HAVE to be effective. It's its safety I question, and will continue to question.

I will certainly make the attempt to contact an ASPCA office in Texas and ask them about this formula.

And I did note that I paid $8 for that 1ml bottle FROM THE VET (because I wanted it in a hurry and didn't have time to wait for mail order, and frankly I didn't NEED 50ml of ivomec not currently having a cow) and it would be cheaper to buy it from an ag store or elsewhere. Thank you for confirming that.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 26, 2001.

The fact is that the higher dosages you recommend ARE dangerous for some animals, especially collies and collie mixes. Obviously you don't want to consider that. ..................................

Oh for heavens sake!! Read the archives we have talked and talked the collie slant to this heartworm prevention to death! Nobody recommends giving anything to an animal that would harm it. You had made the collie point for me in this thread, so I should have to state it again? That was my whole point the last, or was it the time before, about the whole archive hooplaa! Who reads them? Who goes through them? Certainly nobody that I answer and reanswer questions does. This whole conversation is rediculous, it is like arguing over if you use Cydectin orally at 1cc per 20 pounds or 1cc per 25 pounds, which is going on right now on another forum. At least its arguement is based in Milligrams and not Micrograms :) I will simply forward the folks who privatly ask me about heartworming to you!! This way you won't have to waste all that time posting how horrid my advice is! This isn't a competition....its just opinions. And in my opinion...................Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 26, 2001.

No, Vicki, these are not opinions. These are medical procedures that are being bandied about. I have backed my suggestions up with research and plenty of references for people to check things out. Those references are not opinions, either, they are veterinary approved standard procedures for prophylactic treatment of heartworm in dogs, cats, and ferrets, that has been backed up by years of studies, research, and copious facts. Not opinions.

I will repeat: The overdose that you are suggesting will PROBABLY not harm most dogs. PROBABLY not. But it is dangerous for collies and collie mixes. That needs to be stated clearly because, as you said, "who reads the archives"? That's why I keep pounding on the collie thing.

I have 3 e-mails out to 3 different pet shelters and the Texas ASPCA asking about this issue. As soon as I hear back from them I will post the result. I have specifically asked them if they use this formulation, if they follow your regime of 5 weekly doses then monthly (Actually I don't think that's a problem because I'm almost SURE that ivermectin is metabolized in 3 days or less so there shouldn't be a risk of cumulative toxicity, but I don't KNOW), how much danger there is of reaction in dogs and also specifically in collies. When I hear back from them - whatever I hear back, and if you got this from the ASPCA I'm sure they have SOME reason for it, I will report what they say about it. It's the safety that concerns me.

On further investigation I have found that the range suggested is intended to encompass the range of the Heartguard pills which as you know come in only 3 different dosages. Each dosage is formulated to provide the minimum dosage for the dog at the high end of the range, therefore the dog at the low end of the range is getting actually twice the dosage it needs. So the recommended dosage of the ivermectin is actually 6 mcg per kg, (2.75 mcg per lb) with an allowance of up to twice that still considered in the safe - but no more effective - range of treatment. So your recommendations are for 5 times the dose that is effective.

So WHY overdose when you can dose correctly at the veterinary recommended dosage? Why give 5 times the meds needed in any case? Give me a good reason for it and I'll accept it. "Somebody told me so" doesn't count. "Somebody" (vets) have told me there is no alternative to prescription meds for heartworm prophylaxis, and I think (I HOPE VBG) we can certainly agree that THAT isn't the case.

There's another reason behind all this too - who, other than dog breeders, needs 100 ml of this solution anyway? That's enough to dose a 100 lb dog for EIGHT YEARS. It's enough to dose all three of my dogs for almost TEN years, five times the effective shelf life. That's going to be overkill - MONDO overkill - for most of us.

You say we're quibbling over micrograms, but Vicki, this is a medication whose effective dosage IS in micrograms. A few micrograms CAN make a big difference. Research has shown that some dogs can tolerate overdoses as high as 50 times the regular dose; but a collie will be killed at only 10 times the regular dose.

There are other things that can go wrong at much lower doses; blindness and paralysis among them. A dosage that won't actually kill a dog could still leave it crippled, sick, or the owner with a big vet bill even if the animal is fortunate enough to recover. Those are the risks you face when you overdose. And you're overdosing. Are you DANGEROUSLY overdosing? I can't say for sure (except for collies), but I'm trying to find out.

LET ME REITERATE: I don't think this is going to hurt MOST dogs (other than collies) because the treatment for demodex is actually MUCH higher, about 40 times the minimum dosage for heartworm prophylaxis. But vets begin seeing reactions long before they get that high (200 mcg per kg btw is what they give for demodex and that only on a short term basis). They start seeing the blindness, paralysis, etc., and sometimes some of those effects are permanent.

WHY TAKE THE RISK?

Who is it signs their posts "wishing you enough"? This is a case where that philosophy comes in; enough, and not more.

I'm really NOT trying to make this a personal feud, Vicki, but I think you're information is not as good as it might be on this particular subject. I think you're wrong on this issue, but I'm really not making ANY value judgements about you other than that. I don't think you're a bad person, or an idiot, or any other sort of negative connotations that may be coming across in this exchange. If its coming off like that its not my intent, and its not the way I think or feel about you. From what I've read in the past and in the archives it certainly would appear to me that you are an intelligent, caring and compassionate person but I don't think this particular advice is good advice.

And, not that this is personally aimed at you and I hope you won't take it that way, I have NEVER understood why people don't want to know WHY and HOW about things like this. I HAVE TO KNOW! And I won't accept something just because someone said so until I DO know.

If that makes me a weirdo or a pain in the butt or whatever, as you imply, in your opinion, then so be it. I've long given up trying to live according to other people's lights.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 26, 2001.

Of course this is personally aimed at me, you took my email out of the archives to blast on micrograms. You take your information from whomever you want, I am not changing years of mangement because of it. Heartworm meds and the mixing of our own meds is certainly not new with your post. How long have you been using your own advice (opps better call it scientific information), and do your dogs continually test negative each year? I don't really want that information, my point is that mine do.

Do you really think that your email is going to reach anybody that is going to give you information that they USE in their kennel? How about if I just give you the private emails of the folks who run the rescues? Not that I am going to...how about that the PYR's of some of the major herds in Texas, use Ivermectin straight out of the container at 1cc per 100 pounds? Have to admit that even makes me cringe, but it is their dogs! I know for a fact that my vet uses this heartworm prevention dosage on her dogs, yet sells Heartguard and recommends only the pills to her customers. I also know that she knows from A&M that it is recommended to use Ivermectin orally in goats for worming (hence the reason I keep so much Ivermectin around, would you just keel over to know that I also purchase it in 500ml bottles?) yet still gives the old information of injecting it to "cover her ass". So what are you trying to prove here. Nothing. Folks are already deleting all of this, they certainly don't care to read a pissing match between to 40+ year olds, and I certainly don't want to continue with it. I am sure the next email that you and I receive will be from Ken telling us to take it private. I have a real email addy always. Not that I intend to spend much more time on this subject. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 26, 2001.

Well Vicki no matter how hard you try to make it personal its not going to BE personal, at least not on my end.

As I said, you can do and say whatever you want, but I WILL check it out for myself. I'd be happy to have the e-mail addresses of anybody who might have the information I'm looking for, but you've already said you won't give them to me so I suppose its futile to ask for them.

You are upset that I took this information out of the archives, yet you TOLD us to get it from there. If you didn't want it looked at I'm not sure why you did that.

You say "Do you really think that your email is going to reach anybody that is going to give you information that they USE in their kennel?"

In a word, Yes. If they can't or won't give me the information then that tells me one of several possible things:

1) the information doesn't exist 2) they really do do this but there are legal issues involved so they won't divulge the information for fear of being sued 3) they really do do this but know they SHOULDN'T be doing it so they're not going to admit to it

Any of those 3 possibilities - in fact any reason whatsoever that I would be unable to unearth ANY evidence supporting the use of ivermectin at such high dosages - is more than enough for me to continue on my current path. AND advise others likewise.

And yes, I do use this method, my dogs have been so far free of heartworms. Unfortunately I am out of a job and have been for over a month now and the dogs are in danger because my solution is all gone and so are the pills. I sure hope they stay safe until I get work again.

I also know people who have been using this method for years, friends, and you know what, I didn't just start doing it just because they said to. I went out and MADE SURE I had gotten good advice.

I don't really care what other people do that's wrong, I don't care how grossly some kennel somewhere may be overdosing their Pyrs. (Well, I do but that's not the issue here) Like my mother said, "If some friend of yours jumped off a cliff would you jump off right behind her?" I would hope not. Citing further instances of improper medicating doesn't make it ok to advocate overdosing at a slightly lower level to others.

I don't care how much Ivomec you buy, or how long you've been giving it to your dogs. That's your business.

But when you start advising others to follow your lead it would behoove you to have some kind of understanding of what it is you are proposing, including the inherent risks and possible alternatives. As long as you don't - and it is clear by now that you have no understanding of the issues at hand, nor do you WANT to understand - don't be surprised if someone who DOES have a grasp of the facts has something to say about it.

If you REALLY want to e-mail me privately you can get my e-mail address out of the archives - its good for a few more days. I'm not sure why you'd want to. It seems clear to me that you have absolutely no interest in having a discussion, only an argument because you feel your opinions have been challenged. Which they have been. At least on this issue. I really have no other contention with you on anything you have to date said or done. Can't imagine I would in the future.

May you have a nicer day than you seem to be having so far. Really.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 26, 2001.

. Unfortunately I am out of a job and have been for over a month now and the dogs are in danger because my solution is all gone and so are the pills. I sure hope they stay safe until I get work again. ................................

You really don't want them off prevention this time of the year! I could eaisly send you some. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 26, 2001.

Vicki, that is an offer from the heart, and from the heart I thank you for it. However, I THINK I can get this taken care of in the next couple of days. I THOUGHT I had a second bottle of the ivomec but when I went to get it out of the cupboard it says "Sterile Diluent" on it - that is NOT Ivomec! So I think the vet gave me the wrong bottle the last time I bought one. All those little 1ml bottles look the same if you don't carefully read the label.

So they should take it back and give me the ivomec - I do try to keep an extra bottle on hand even though the stuff lasts me forever, I wouldn't be out of the last batch except I spilled it.

If there's some problem, if for some reason they won't take it back - and I can't imagine they wouldn't - I guarantee you I will take you up on your offer. I've been really worried about it.

Again, I thank you for the offer.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 26, 2001.

Vicki, I know several kennel owners who breed small dogs like poms and yorkies.They use the same mixture with their small dogs that you use with your big dogs. Bettie

-- Bettie Ferguson (jobett@dixie-net.com), June 26, 2001.

this back and forth has me confused..where can I get ivermec on the net? how many mg are in 1/10 ml? my dog is 60- 65 lbs I was giving her 6/10 ml, that's not correct? I put it on a piece of bread (cracker,cruton,pretzel,whatever) and give it to her,no mixing no spoiling. I was told by a vet the med last longer than its expiration date because it is sterile and kept at cool temperatures it can last long after it gaurenteed shelf life.

-- (jmalan9@yahoo.com), October 20, 2001.