went to see the yearling and all her friends last night. The set up was very nice and I could see that everyone was well taken care of. They do have papers that are blue with the ADGA on them. The breeder and her son were as helpful as could be. You could tell they really love thir goats. I got to observe and participate in milking and She palpated a doe that had kidded that day because she still seemed to be straining. My heart went out to the poor thing. But it didn't make me sick or anything!:) Vicki, they are purebreds(purebred Americans). Tell me again what your objection is to the Americans if you don't mind. I haven't bought anything or put down a deposit yet. The other thing is when I milked(which I thought would be easy) I was so slow and had a hard time getting the milk to come out. Shoiuld I let this intimidate me? I know I would get better with practice, but is the doe going to put up with this long time milking? Will I give her mastitis while I learn and get better. I know she milks fine because the breeders son just did great with her. He could do it with 2 hands and had quite a rhythm going. Ther I was just struggling to do it with 1 hand. I'm so embarrassed!:) I dont know how you learn except to do it, any suggestions? Thanks!

-- Denise Hammock (jphammock@earthlink.net), May 07, 2000 Answers You will get better with practice and time.. you'll be fine. Just try to make sure you milk her out all the way and are sanitary so you don't have anything waiting in the udder or teat area to cause mastitus. Hope this works out for you. Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), May 07, 2000.

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Oh Denise! Of course you can learn to milk, that kid was doing it wasn't he? It's always a little embarrassing for the new person, and a chuckle for the breeder, I always try to busy myself with something else, while a new person struggles to milk her first doe. The doe will be as patient as the feed holds out in the feeder! :) I don't object to American's. And once again this is my opinion, and my experience. The problem is that American Nubains, Alpines, Toggs, Sannens and Obie's herd books are closed, and no matter how many times the line is breed by a purebred buck you will always have Americans. American bucks are all but unsaleable, and Amercian does sell for less than their Purebred EQUALS. Toggs are perhaps the only breed that this is less true in, but even in them the buck has to have truly superior genetics to sell for good money. And if you are purchasing stock, you have to have future sales in mind. If you do decide to buy the American does, then at least know this. There are lots of nasty purebreds, but if you have the choice between EQUAL animals buy the Purebred, you will make more money off of her line in the long run. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 07, 2000.

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One of my pet peeves is when a breeder will have a solid pure background, I raise both American and French Alpines, and they breed it to a american. There goes yrs of great pure breeding... This has been the case in some of my best foundation Alpine does and there is no way they will ever be pure again! Like for example the Hoach's lines which are great lines but were mixed with the sodium Oaks lines, got great looking show goats from the breeding but blew generatiosn of pure breeding. I got the buck for my American girls as he is american. So now i have 2 herds in my herd, the american and pure or French.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), May 07, 2000.

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Two comments -- yes, a new milker will get much faster as they get practice, but it might be a good idea to try milking several different does just to see the differences in how fast the animals milk out. One of our nicest animals was a Saanan doe that had very small teat orifices. It always took me almost twice as long to milk her out as my other does; I would get hand cramps before I was done with her. Also, as regards 'pure' breeding stock, I understand the reasoning, but there are some very good genetic reasons to maintain open registries and let good quality animals be added to the bloodlines, even if they aren't pure. Check out this web site -- it's about dogs, but the basic premise applies to all livestock, I think -- curious to see what you guys think on this topic. http://www.seppalasleddogs.com/documents/pbdg21c.htm

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 07, 2000.

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Kathleen, after reading part of this article, I was trying to figure out the motivation for this article. Did you click on his home page? His motivation for wanting AKC and the Canada dog registry to see the err of their ways, is because he is breeding cross-bred Siberian Huskies! "Using Seppala's (I take it a famous dog sledder) dogs that has been maintained as a pure bloodline with the AKC/CKC Siberian Husky registry since the l930'" he then is crossing them with other dogs to add hybrid vigor etc. And how will he get top dollar for those animals? To have AKC in favor of adding this breed as a recognised breed! It's just a little vicious circle! I breed purebreds because they make money. A Nubain doe who appraised Excellent who is Pure, and another who is American and apprasied Excellent, both are bred to the same Purebred buck, * Buck with Grand Champion parents: The Purebred Nubains kids easily sell for $400 and up. The American does daughters may sell from $250 but the bucks will only be sold if you can find someone who has Americans to breed him to, and even then it will never be at the amount a Purebreds sons are sold for. I have never been to the airport with an american buck to ship to another breeder. Yes, with the threat of Y2K looming, we did keep a nice group of LaMancha milkers, we knew that if anything happened we would be eating Nubain and drinking LaMancha milk. We also would have grown out the small group of crosses I had bred for Y2K. But now that this is a non-event, (and because the daughter who showed LaMancha's is graduating) we have dispersed the crosses and the LaMancha's. We will continue with our Purebred Nubains, they pay the feed bill! Probably a Purebred/American debate is boring to the other readers! Sorry! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 07, 2000.

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I don't think it's boring. I did think the guy had a good point, though. I don't know if you read far enough to see that the dogs he wanted to add to his breeding program were descended from the original Siberian stock, just didn't have registration papers. And I do understand that purebred animals bring more money than non- purebred in any type of livestock. I'm just wondering if he doesn't have a valid point about the occasional need of fresh blood to prevent all the genetic health problems that can crop up, and to get hybrid vigor. I know that's why many meat animals (cattle, hogs, and sheep) in commercial herds are cross-breds. So maybe the system of registering purebred animals ought to be re-vamped along slightly different lines. You are well aware, for I've heard you warn others, that purebred doesn't necessarily mean good quality. I've heard of registries that are performance based (I'm thinking of Clun Forest and Coopworth sheep), rather than show-ring based. The animals have to be inspected before registry, and (hopefully) accurate records kept of all the essential data. There are some more-or-less pure breeds that are VERY old (some of the livestock guardian dogs, for instance). I know there are some genetic problems in some of them -- I know of hip problems in Great Pyrenees, and one of the dogs we had, turned out to have a heart defect that we found out was common in his blood-line. (Of course, the breeder didn't tell us about it!) But many breeds are actually fairly new, having been created by deliberate cross-breeding. Then they close the registry to all new parent stock -- and pretty soon the animals are all inbred and getting to be unhealthy. You need a good-sized base of parent stock to prevent excessive in-breeding, so I guess what I was wondering (for all registered animals, not just goats) is if it wouldn't make more sense to keep the registries open, admitting animals to registration only after they were mature, producing, and had been inspected to be sure they were good, healthy specimens. And occasionally allowing the addition of outside bloodlines of a really good-quality animal that basically met the requirement for the standard, but didn't have papers. If all the animals had to be inspected for registration, I don't see how that would hurt anything. (And I do realize that I'm not going to change the registration systems!! This is just a thought.)

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 07, 2000.

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OK, I;ve tried and tried to hold my peace about the purebred/American issue, but now I guess I'll jump in,too! It seems to be true that among Nubians, purebreds are held in higher esteem than Americans. That isn't necessarily so in all the other breeds. I raise alpines, have raised goats for 10 years now, not an expert, but not a dummy,either. Some of the finest alpines that have ever been bred have been Americans, and MANY national champion alpines have been American. Two great herds, Shahena'ko, and Sodium Oaks, were American. I am presently building my herd on these bloodlines, proud of it, and don't want anything else in my herd! As for the prices of American bucks and their saleability, there is Walnut Fork Kundun,the TOP selling animal at the spotlight sale, of all the breeds, he sold for $5,500.It's not just the spotlight sale, either, all the Walnut Fork buck kids go, and they all go for quite a bit of money. And it's not just Walnut Fork (which is bred on the Sodium Oaks bloodlines), there are many other fine alpine herds with bucks (american), selling for very good prices, and they sell out,too.I bought an american buck for $600 last year, bought another one this year,got a good deal on him, paid about $225, because the breeder needed to sell all her goats. Normally that kid would have gone for $500-$700. The same breeder had two other bucks, both sired by the famous Sodium Oaks Sasin, that I was very interested in, but they sold for $1500, each.By the way, Sasin was american alpine. Nearly all the alpines at Redwood Hills are american, they sell their buck kids for a healthy price,and last year I wanted to get one, but they were already sold out!! The latest United Caprine News tells about the history of the alpine breed,When Dr, De Langle imported what were the founders of the french(purebred) alpine breed, there was no such breed recognized in France. Dr.De langle just considered all swiss breed goats to be alpines. The colors ranged from pure white(which is now totally unacceptable in the breed) to black, and could have been any swiss breed- saanen, toggeneburg,oberhasli, etc. There wasn't a single cou blanc among them. All french alpines are descended from only these goats, although there were alpine types in America prior to that time.It kind of sounds to me like the alpines were crossbred to begin with,then.I can understand that someone wouldn't want an animal that had pygmy or nigerian dwarf blood in it, but you can look at the pedigrees on the Americans, and see if there are any recoerded grades, whether they were appraised, and if they had production records. And the fact is, that there are dishonest breeders who will claim that an animal is something when it's not, and apart from DNA testing, there's no way to tell if the animal really is 100% what they say it is. Even the DNA testing can only do so much, and based on the number of folks who lie about their CAE status and cheat on the milk testing and shows, I think there is probably more dishonesty on the paperwork than we might guess. I think it's important to remember the goal we are striving towards when we're breeding goats.Is it simply a purebred,(by the way,registered alpines have blue papers too) or are we working towards a goat with better conformation,dairy quality,and production that can be sustained over the years? When I first got into registered goats, I looked through the semen catalogs, and noticed that the goats that looked the best to me, and that had the nicest foreudders, and really good production, were from the Shahena'ko and Sodium Oaks herds,and so that's what I ordered the semen from. I am sure that there are french alpines with nice foreudders, but the rumor among the goat breeders that I have talked to is that it is very hard to breed a perfect foreudder working on only the french lines.One lady, who has had several nat'l show winners, went so far as to say that she had bred to french bucks and every time, she lost the udder quality, so she got rid of her french bucks and the french semen. She has bred her herd entirely on americans now, and had a very well esteemed herd.Then there is the dilemna of when people sell you a goat with purebred or registered parents, and either haven't kept up on the paperwork, or refuse to give it to you, and even though you know the animal is of registered stock, you have to register it as a recorded grade, as though it were a crossbred. It amy be true that american nubians are not worth much, but in alpines, that simply isn't the case. I would look at the animal first,and the french/american part last.After all, as Donald Smith( owner of Sodium Oaks herd) said, Papers don't matter,udders do! OK guess I've ranted long enough!!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 07, 2000.

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Rebecca, it will be a long time coming when Lonesome Doe, Denise's herd, perhaps your herd also, has the clout it takes to sell animals for those prices. Purebred or American. My post was comparing equally apprasied animals. Also my opinions of real sales. And anyway you slice it she will make more money initially with Purebred stock. And yes all breeds of Dairy Goats Pure or American have blue paperwork. Don't wait until you have a whole head of steam to post, would love to keep this a friendly little chat. I get my full of controversy over on Nubain Talk, but then I show with them so I know alot of them, and they like me are passionate about our does, but would love for this forum to be toned friendlier. Perhaps you were doing it privately, which I was also, but if you have Alpines, you would be the logical one to help Denise with her purchase. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 07, 2000.

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Hi everybody! I can tell that everyone here is very passionate about their goats. I didn't mean to start anything. I respect all of your opinions. I really only asked just to make totally sure there weren't any long term health problems or the like with the goats I had seen because of their breeding. It will be a long time if ever that I will be in a position to make money from goats. I mainly want to provide our own milk. Since breeding is necessary to keep that going I will have to sell the babies if I can. Hopefully I can find someone that wants to do a 4H project or just a pet or a family milker. My prices won't be big. Maybe once my kids are older and ONce I am able to move to a larger piece of property I might get more into the breeding end of it for money. Then I would probably feel just as strongly as you about their background. I have really been learning alot from all of you. I'm still a little worried about milking but I'm still going for it. I had to remind myself that I like a challenge:)! I'm truly sorry if I caused any trouble. Thanks.

-- Denise Hammock (jphammock@earthlink.net), May 08, 2000.

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Denise,you didn't cause any trouble, don't worry about it! If you can find a good quality purebred, or American, doe that you like,and everything else seems OK, buy her.The one thing I would be careful about in any alpine(and I raise only alpines)is the feet and to a lesser extent, the legs. The alpine breed seems to have more than it's share of bad feet, and a doe with poor feet will not live as long or produce as well as one that has good feet.You might try to ask the breeder(in a tactful way) about conformation, and what she would consider to be this doe's faults.This is just my opinion, but i would choose a percentage grade(1/2or 3/4 alpine)with perfect feet over a purebred with bad feet, if all the other traits and qualities were the same. If the feet are good, try to make sure that the foreudder is well attached,too. Vicki, this, again, is my opinion, but I don't think any buck kid should be sold for breeding unless he is truly out of superior genetics, and shows it, whether he is purebred or american. I know that there are some breeders who sell every buck kid that's born, but it should be more like only one out of every five or ten.Even in the top bloodlines, there are going to be kids that don't live up to their parent's quality, and the bucks especially, ought to be culled. I think it is going to be (or should be) hard for any breeder that doesn't have a really good reputation to sell many buck kids,even if the parents are the cream of the crop, we can't expect to get the same prices as if we were the top breeders, even though the parents may both have been bought from that same breeder.When people are gambling a good part of next years kid crop on a buck, they want to be sure he is the very best, and his kids will sell better if they are from a buck with a top herd name.I guess that what I'm trying to say is that regardless of purebred or not,any buck kid is going to be practically unsaleable unless the breeder has a really good reputation, and usually some publicity,too. In the alpine breed, the americans have proven themselves to be very bit the equal of the french does,and they also outnumber the french does. In last years nationals, only 7 of the does that placed in the top ten of each age group were french, and not one of those placed first in her class.I'm not saying that french isn't any good, just that they aren't better,and that I haven't noticed any price disparity between the two, when they are of equal quality and from equally reputed breeders..

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 09, 2000.

-- Chamoisee (chamoisee@yahoo.com), June 24, 2001