Hi

I have a Minolta CLE body with no lens. I thought I would start off with a 40mm since the camera has framelines for this focal length. My problem is which 40mm to buy? The correct CLE 40mm is said to be multicoated and the original CL 40mm is said not to be multicoated, has anyone compared to see if there is much difference between the two? Then also to consider is that there were 2 different 40mm's for the CL one made in Germany the other in Japan, again any difference? If there is no optical difference I would most likely go for the Summicron 40, not because it bares the Leica brand but because it takes 39mm filters which will be more standard for other lenses I wish to purchase, if however there is an optical difference then filter size would be less of a priority.

Thanks in Advance

-- James Cooke (james.c@mis.net.au), July 03, 2001

Answers

James:

The other people here know a lot more about the technical differences in these lenses; for me I haven't seen much difference. I wouldn't discount the filter thingy; I have a large collection of filters (mostly B +W; plus some of the more expensive brands) and they aren't all that cheap. It would (and did) make a difference to me.

I'm sure that those who have done testing will answer your question more clearly.

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), July 03, 2001.

The Leica 40 DOES NOT take 39mm filters, but the strange series 5.5 which are very hard to find. The Minolta CLE 40 is a superb lens and one of the best lenses I have ever used period. It also has the right cam profile for your camera, is multicoated, and is less expensive than the older Leica 40.It takes a more common 40.5mm filter, which are still being made. The CLE other lenses used that size as well. They show up on Ebay by themselves and sell for about $200 in mint condition-what a deal.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), July 03, 2001.

FWIW, although I have no way of comparing it to the CL model, I recently acquired the M-Rokkor 40 for the CLE & agree w/Mr. Schank that it's a very good performer for the money that's roughly comparable (at least in B&W) w/my 45mm Planar for Contax G (I did pay $275 to a dealer, though, to get a mint example w/its original collapsible hood). I'm also in the opposite filter predicament from you--1 factor favoring the CLE M-Rokkor was that I can use my extensive collection of 40.5mm filters (for my old Zeiss Ikon Contax RF lenses).

-- Christopher Chen (furcafe@cris.com), July 03, 2001.

I went through the same dilemma about a year ago when I bought a CLE. In the end I chose the Leica Summicron-C 40mm/2 over the Minolta M-Rokkor 40mm/2 mainly for vanity reasons (OK, I gotta confess!) and partly because it's a smaller lens. This earlier thread has some useful info about mounting the Summicron-C on the CLE: http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl? msg_id=003phH.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 04, 2001.

Thanks to all those who have responded, and so quickly too! Andrew, with regards to the filter size, I see that in the actual sales brochure that the lens takes the series 5.5 filters, I have no idea what size that actually was. So when looking at info on the lenses I read on the camera quest site for the Leica CL www.cameraquest.com/leicacl.htm under the heading "Rokkors Vs Leitz Lenses" its says that the German lenses use E39 filters. I thought at the time series 5.5 must just have been another term for 39mm. It was from this site I determined the 39mm filter size as it has been mentioned the acuracy of the information from this site, I just took it to be correct. I wonder which is correct?

-- James Cooke (james.c@mis.net.au), July 04, 2001.

James,

I just took my Summicron-C out and put a B+W 39mm filter on it. Works fine. The Series 5.5 rubber hood also fits on the 39mm filter. So it appears to me at least that series 5.5 and 39mm filters are basically the same. I do think there is a touch of difference between the German and Japanese lenses. I had a Minolta CLE that had the Rokkor 40. I now have a Summicron-C on a Leica M4- P. The Leica lens "feels" different physically, possibly better damping or slightly closer tolerances in construction. The glass performance is very, very close. I think there is a slight difference, but I'd be hard pressed to prove it. Anyway, I actually found this Summicron-C from a dealer with both caps and rubber shade for $225, so if you look around deals are there.

BTW, I'm sure you're aware that the Rokkor 90/4 for the CL is actually made by Leica.

Eric Platt St. Paul, MN

-- Eric Platt (ericplatt@aol.com), July 04, 2001.

Isn't that something. I had a 40 Summicron and went out of my way to find a series 5.5 filter for it. Are you sure the pitch is the same and everything? Funny that Leica called for series filters in the manual as well if I recall. Wierd. I don't have mine anymore or I'd pull it out and check it to confirm. Learn something everyday at the Leica forum.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), July 04, 2001.

The following is part of my e-mail correspondence with James; I thought I should share it here for others' reference and for further comments:

The most frustrating (and confusing thing) about the Summicron-M 40mm lens is the filter. I searched high and low in Hong Kong, where I currently live and work, and nowhere could I find the mysterious Series 5.5 filter. Of course I can order it from the Internet, but the price of the filter plus shipping charges are just not worth it. Anyway, as I remember, a more knowledgeable used-camera shop owner told me that the Series 5.5 filter must be used together with the lens' own rubber hood and filter-holder, and this article reiterates the setup: http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica- users/v00/msg05238.html. I have no idea how this works, since my lens came without the dedicated rubber lens hood and cap (another source of frustration for me, and I've since settled for a no-brand metal hood which takes the standard 42mm push-on plastic lens cap). I have no idea about the size of the Series 5.5 filter either, but according to this chart, it's 40.5 mm: http://www.leicag allery.com/lenshoodchart.htm. However, the lens does take 39mm filter, but apparently not every brand. During my search for the filter and lens hood+cap, a couple of camera shop guys tried to fit various 39mm filters on my lens without success, but I have found that I can fit a Heliopan S39 filter on the lens. Incidentally, I was told that the Heliopan filters are multi-coated while the more expensive Leica filters are single-coated.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 04, 2001.

The standard Heliopan filters are not multicoated. They use the term "double coated" but its misleading, as they mean both sides have one coating. I have a feeling the pitch is different on the series 5.5 40 Summicron lens, but some 39mm filters may go on due to thread size tolerances.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), July 04, 2001.

I'll agree the pitch might not be exactly the same. However, in the short distance needed on the 40/2, I'm not sure it matters that much. The filter I tried was a B+W which I've used on a 50/2 Coll for a couple of years. The filter screwed into the lens and the shade screwed on the filter. The filter lens connection was not the smoothest in the world, but it did mesh. The filter/hood meshed perfectly.

Eric Platt St. Paul, MN

-- Eric Platt (ericplatt@aol.com), July 05, 2001.

Eric:

That is what I have found. The B + W 39 mm's work as do my Leitz 39 mm [which I presume are made by B + W since I had one filter which said Leitz on the top and B + W on the bottom when mounted on the 50 mm f/2]. Don't know if they should but they seem to on my lens. Isn't B + W Schneider?

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), July 05, 2001.

The difference between 39mm filters and series 5.5 is rather subtle but important. First, series 5.5 filters have no threads but instead fit inside an adapter ring which screws into the threads on the lens. Second, Leica E39 filters are 39mm by 0.5mm thread pitch. Series 5.5 adapters are 39mm by 0.75mm thread pitch. I have seen some E39 filters used on the Leica CL lenses but they hold by only one thread or so. I have purchased several CLs over the years and each comes with an E39 UV filter partially stuck on.

If I could do it all again, I would buy the Minolta lens. I don't think you'll see much difference in shooting between the simple coated and multi-coated lenses. Strong lights might give you a bit of trouble.

-- mark (mramra@qwest.net), July 05, 2001.

Mark:

I will freely admit that I know less about the details of equipment than anyone here and assume that you are correct. They screwed all of the way onto mine [my filters are all B + W or Heliopan]. I no longer have the lens. It has gone to the great photoshop in the sky. [I now strongly recommend against changing lenses while hanging from a rope 500 ft up a rock face. Contrary to popular opinion Leica equipment and B + W filters do break if you drop them far enough].

At the time, I didn’t have a manual or knowledgeable friends to tell me I couldn’t use them, so in ignorance, I used them. Now I know that I can’t do that. :).

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), July 06, 2001.

I've had a Leica CL w/ 40mm and 90mm Leica lenses for 26 years (and think they are great). To address the filter questions:

The CL manual clearly states (refering to the CL lenses): "(Note: screw thread at the front of the lens is NOT the same as the LEICA E39 filter thread)." I've measured the thread on mine and it appears to be 39x0.75mm. There are only 2 or 3 threads total so it's easy to understand that one can jam a 39x0.5mm E39 filter on it. But it is not intended for 39mm filters!

Series 5.5 filters have the configuration of a flat disk of 36mm OD and 4mm thickness. The frame around the outside takes up a couple mm on each side so the clear aperture is 32mm. The sides are smooth (w/o any threads. These filters are held down on the frame around the front lens surface by the screw in rubber hoods.

I also have a polarizing filter I can use with mine. It is the standard Leica swing out polarizer of that era (#13352) which was designed to clamp onto the outside of the 50mm and other lenses. It comes with an integrated metal hood. It expects a 42mm smooth surface on the outside of the lens to which it can clamp. Since the 40mm summicron C is so compact, that surface isn't there. So, Leica sold an adapter (#98183) which screws into the front of the lens in place of the rubber lens cap. This adapter then provides the surface to clamp on the polarizing filter and can be used to retain other series 5.5 filters.

The 90mm f/4-C lens has the same setup. Although there is some space on the front of the lens so the polarizer can be used w/o the adapter.

I have no idea where the idea of a series 5.5 filter came from. I guess series 5, 6 and 7 filters were popular in the '50-'70s. I have some series 5 filters which go with an old TLR Rollei (with adapter). Series 5 looks to be 30.3mm OD and 4.5mm thick. I think they are really in some inch size (1 3/16"). I don't know what series 6 size is. Perhaps Leica thought it needed a size in between and so invented 5.5..... In any case, it is interesting that the filters I have in series 5.5 are all marked as Leica USA and not Germany.

I hope this helps.

Bob

-- Bob Martin (robertnmartin@earthlink.net), July 07, 2001.

Thanks for the many responses to my 40mm question. In the end I have actually purchased a Summicron 40. It was a decision mainly based on price in that it was $100(Australian)less than the cheapest Minolta 40mm I could find. Its in mint condition. I could not find anyone that could conclusively say that the 40mm CLE lens with its multicoatings would show notable picture improvement. Camerquest made reference that the Leica lenses "may" not be mulicoated but I cannot find any conclusive proof that the Leica C lenses arent multicoated. Buying the Summicron 40 will also alow me to solve the conflicting reports about filters. I have ordered a 39mm B&W multicoated filter and will let you all know how it fits, whether it screws on all the way or just with one thread before it jams.

thanks, James

-- James Cooke (james.c@mis.net.au), July 10, 2001.

Just out of curiosity I should let those interested know that I also found another 40mm lens, a russian made 40 f1.8 actually in M mount! I have some photos of it if anyone is interested. The coatings look like they are worse than a coke bottle but I thought it was fastinating nonetheless!

-- James Cooke (james.c@mis.net.au), July 15, 2001.