Living in Germany (can hardly speak a useful word, but nevermind...) An old guy gave me his Granddad´s Leica: Serial number 294612. It appears to work perfectly. Ok, I love it too, and am thinking about using it (...someone said DON´T!!!) Can anyone tell me where, when it was made, and what it could be worth? Danke, Dean

-- Dean Nixon (deannixon@hotmail.com), July 04, 2001

Answers

Probably a Leica II (model D) made in 1938. Depending on features & condition, probably worth somewhere between $400 and $700 US. If it's absolutely "mint" could be more.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), July 04, 2001.

I think it could be a Leica I (American designation = Leica A) with a fixed Elmar 50mm f/3.5 lens, which has serial number from 1,300 to 71,249, and was made from 1926 to 1930. According to the 12th edition (1996) of The Blue Book: An Illustrated Guide with Prices for Classic & Collectible Cameras, a Leica I (A) Elmar with a five-digit serial number is worth about US$ 850 (that was the 1996 price, probably worth more now).

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 04, 2001.

Big oops! How embarrassing it is to prove to the entire internet world that I can't count! I actually missed a digit from the serial number of Dean's camera! My apologies for being so careless.

Ken is right, it's most probably a Leica II (D), which has serial numbers from 71,200 to 358,650 (one-two-three-four-five-six, 294612 is a six-digit number, seems right this time!), and was made from 1932 to 1948. The same source (The Blue Book) says that the chrome version is worth US$375 and a black version US$500 (that's 1996 prices).

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 04, 2001.

Regarding the serial no's quoted above, how about a Leica II (D) with serial no 57552, inherited from my grandad through my father.

-- sait (akkirman@clear.net.nz), July 05, 2001.

According to Stephen Gandy's Leica Screwmount Serial Number List, serial no. 57552 (1- 2-3-4-5; that's right, five digits!) corresponds to a 1930 batch of Leica I. My hypothesis is that the camera could be a Leica I that had been returned to Leica to upgrade to Leica II standards. I read it somewhere that Leica had this upgrading service before W.W.II; I'll do some research. Meanwhile, can any Leica historians reading this help?

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 05, 2001.

Aha! In the 6th paragraph of Stephen Gandy's Leica Screwmount Serial Number list, it says: "Leica offered factory upgrades for earlier cameras until at least the middle 1950's. Many cameras were sent back to the factory to be converted to the latest model. The converted camera would keep the original camera's serial number. . . ."

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 05, 2001.

The Leica II (model D) began production in 1932 with serial # 71200. It would seem that Sait's # 57552 would be either a Leica I (model A) with fixed lens, or a Leica I (model C) with removable lens, but more information is needed.

I am no historian, but a few things are clear from references. This period around 1930 is very confused with many early models crossing over the serial number ranges. However, the jump from Leica I (models A,B,C) to Leca II (models D,E) in 1932 was distinctive. The Leica II introduced the viewfinder housing top, the built-in rangefinder coupled to the lens, and the extending rewind knob.

While Leitz/Leica made many factory upgrades to later models (adding slow speeds, self timers, etc) it seems unlikely that an upgrade from Leica I to Leica II was available. The changes were just too significant - almost like upgrading an M2 to an M6. BUT, I am not an expert in that.

I would first ask Sait what leads him to believe he has a Model II D with that serial number(?). If it is in fact a Leica I then a number of questions need to be answered to narrow down the possibilities.

As for value - all over the map until it can be narrowed down.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), July 05, 2001.

There's one way to confirm if Sait's camera is an updated Leica-- check if the serial number ends with an asterisk. As for whether a Leica I could be updated to a Leica II, Ghester Sartorius seems to think so in his book Identifying Leica Cameras (p. 69):

Serial numbers with an asterisk
Occasionally, on some cameras, the serial number is immediately followed by an asterisk. Leitz adopted this system to indicate when a client requested the transformation of an old model into one of more recent production. For example, when a Leica I was updated to a Leica II with a rangefinder. . . . In such cases, Leitz did not utlize new serial number but reassigned the original number with the addition of an asterisk to the modified camera to indicate that it had been transformed and that the serial number, being a duplicate, no longer allowed the identification of the original model. . . .

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 05, 2001.

It's even possible to upgrade a Leica I (A) to a Leica III! Here's the proof: http://www.tamarkin.com/catalog/auction/spring99_lot_image .cfm?mLotID=217.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 05, 2001.

Listed in this rare camera auction is a Leica II (D) that was converted from a Leica I (A) (lot no. 262): http://www .tamarkin.com/auction/springresults.htm#12.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 05, 2001.

Thanks for all the replies re Leica II d. There is no asterics after the number. The camera had an interchangable hektor 50mm f2.5 as original lens. Top of the camera has the "Leica" script, then No 57552 beside it. Below the script line 1 "Ernst Leitz", line 2 "Wetzlar", line 3 "D.R.P".

-- sait (akkirman@clear.net.nz), July 05, 2001.

I guess anything is possible - even converting an M2 to an M6. I wonder how often this happeed - seems like an expensive conversion. Only Sait can clarify with more info about his camera.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), July 05, 2001.

Well, the Hektor was supplied with the I(A), I(C)(non-std), I(C) (std), and so on, so that doesn't help any. That the body has a script Leica says it was converted to a Leica II, alright, but no telling whether it started life as a I(A) or I(C). I did find a picture of a I(A) to II(D) Luxus conversion, and the serial number does not have an asterisk. The asterisk may be something Leica started doing with later conversions.

I have not seen any value penalty on factory conversions, so I would guess its value to be like that of any II(D) - $400 to $700 - depending on whether the features are chrome or nickel. More if it's "mint", and less if it has problems.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), July 05, 2001.

As far as I know, the camera and a Leica enlarger was specially imported for my grandad, new, into Turkey. He was a doctor and very interested in gadgets. He apparently also had the first "wireless" radio in his town. He would not have been in a position to first purchase a Type 1 and then had it converted to type II (D). Unfortunately this is all my dad can tell me ( I am 54 and he is 88, my grandad died when I was 4!). I have been using the camera and the enlarger until recently. The shutter curtains have finally perished. I am hoping to get them rebuilt soon. Thanks for all the trying.

-- sait (akkirman@clear.net.nz), July 06, 2001.

Dear Sait, I would get your converted Leica II (D) repaired and overhauled by Leica. It'll definitely increase in value over time. In any case, it's a camera with your own family's history, and that in itself is worth more than money! I still have my father's Olympus 35 SP (which I have repaired and still put to use every once in a while) and I won't part with it even though a number of people have offered to buy it at a good price.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 06, 2001.

Well, Sait, your serial number falls in the range of a Leica I. The Leica II began with serial # 71200 in 1932. That's a fact.

However, the Leica I did not have the top plate with the script Leica or the wording you described, so it has gone through a converson. Maybe your grandfather purchased the camera from someone who alredy had it converted(?).

Leica stopped servicing screw mount cameras several years ago. They just plain ran out of parts. However, there are still many independent repair shops that specialize in screw mount restoration. Some are really very good and prices are reasonable, by Leica standards.

There are several listed by LHSA (Leica Historical Society of America) at the following URL: http://www.lhsa.org/

On the left side, click on "Repair, and look for shops that service Screw Mount (SM) cameras & lenses.

Good luck, Sait.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), July 06, 2001.

Just to complete this fascinating thread (to me, at least!) and for others' future reference, here's an example of a Leica II that was upgraded from a Leica I(A): http://www.cameraquest.co m/leica2.htm.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), August 05, 2001.

Selam Sait bey,

ben , kenan akkirman ( 30 / makina muhendisiyim )bugun cok enteresan internette surf yaparken bizimle ayni soyadda akkirman başka birileri daha oldugunu duyunca ( gorunce ) heyecanlandim . Bizim kutugumuz Istanbul, Fatih , muhtesip iskender . Bilmiyorum acaba arada bir baglanti var mi ? Bana bu emailden ulasabilirsiniz. babamin adi : mustafa Kamil akkirman (1946) dedemin : fuat nazmi akkirman ( 1919)

-- Kenan Akkirman (akkirman@yahoo.com), October 05, 2001.