Anybody besides me miss BTS?  If so, I've created a new forum called A Village Commons.  I'm not trying to start a war, and I have no criticism of Countryside whatsoever.  It's just too big for the sort of interaction I was getting over at BTS.  I can't promise no one will ever be offended.  I can't promise that feelings will never be hurt.  I won't promise never to delete a post.  I WILL promise never, ever, ever to turn it in to a closed forum.  This is an open invitation to anyone who wants a smaller, more intimate forum along the lines of BTS (the way it used to be, all whacko liberal watermelon eco-freaky).  Basically the same rules.  No porn, no proselytizing (either political or religious).  Play nice.  Be touchy-feely (not forgetting the feely part, please).  Share.  Otherwise, it'll be "The Tragedy of the Commons" all over again.  LOL!

This is very very long, but here's why I'm doing this.

For a little bit of background, I've been hanging around both BTS and Countryside almost from their inceptions, but until a couple three months ago had never posted on either forum.  Once I "broke the fourth wall" and posted to CS, I started interacting over on BTS as well.  On BTS, I made a friend who turned me on to an appearance of Gene Logsdon at her local library (thanks Tren!).  GL is sort of a "hero" of mine, I even have a fan club in his honor on my web pages.  He is a homesteading author who has influenced me tremendously, and thanks to Tren on BTS, I finally got to meet the man.  It required 17 hours of driving to do it, but some things are just worth it.  I also got to meet Tren and her husband and kids, and another e-friend who lives in Ohio, and her family, and got to see both their places and marvel at their gardens and ... etc. etc. etc.  It was a great trip.  Now Gene Logsdon is sending me material for the website, and I've been invited to be a guest on the Don and Carla show.  All because of BTS.

And then ...

"I feel a great disturbance in the Force. It is as if millions of voices cried out, and then - suddenly - were stilled ..."

Beyond The Sidewalks suddenly went to a private, members-only format.

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I have to share with you all something I read recently.  It's from one of Gene Logsdon's essays in "The Big Things in Life are the Little Things".  The title of the essay is "Community Life is Alive and Well in Sycamore".  Oddly enought, I read this essay the day after BTS went to silent running.  I know this is long.  Its not the whole essay but its better than half:

"I love little villages because they are the most genuine repository of that indefinable thing we call a sense of community.  Many people, in fact most people, no longer live within a real community, and that is why you hear urban and suburban society talk so much about a loss of identity.  They try to make up for their lack of community by joining a club, or a special interest group, or by continuous hobnobbing with a closed circle of friends.  Motorcycle gangs, religious orders, the Cleveland Browns' Dog Pound, the DAR, the Farm Bureau, the Rotarians.  They are all substitutes for real community, or are only parts of real
community.

Clubs and circles of friends are not community because they are exclusionary.  They do not represent a true cross section of society, nor do they share a common binding economic interest.  A real community includes within it all the occupational groups necessary for a society to function, and is small enough so that everyone is aware of a common economic interest.  Some of the people may despise each other, but they know they have to join in mutual cooperation if they are to survive.

It is difficult to achieve this kind of commonality in cities or even medium sized towns because the human mind just can't grasp the connectedness of true economy in such large groups.  For example, if you live in New York City, you may never see a cow or a field of corn in your life and so you are not likely to worry much about farmers going broke.  Likewise, if you are a sheepherder on a 50,000-acre Montana ranch, you will have a hard time getting interested in whether a Detroit autoworker makes a living or not.  The very complexity of the term "modern society" causes the mind to grow weary of the big picture, and
to retreat into clubs and groups and special causes and friendships.

You can retreat from real community in a village too, of course, but it is very difficult.  In Carey or Sycamore, you are going to run into representatives of almost all walks of life over a year's time if you do anything at all besides watch TV.  You can't hide in the exclusive retreat of the guarded suburban enclave, or a well heeled country club.  If you are poor, you can't hide in a ghetto.  Either rich or poor you can't escape the retarded and the unwed mothers and the religious fanatics and the secular humanists.  They are going to be within walking distance of you.  Villagers are forced to deal with the real world, and that is why they should be the most well rounded and knowledgeable people in society.

Real community is when you hear a car dealer say the he watches the crops as fervently as the farmers do because if the corn is poor, car sales will be poor too.  Real community is feeling concern when a good man loses his job, even in a totally unrelated business, because you know good men are hard to find.  I saw a person turn in a $100 bill she found under a restaurant table recently, and then the whole restaurant staff worried until they figured out who had last been seated at that table.  That's what a sense of community does for society."

(End of quote from GL's essay)

I think many of us are looking for community from these forums, chatrooms, e-mail lists, and other online communications opportunities.  In the purest sense, I don't think TRUE community (as defined above) is really possible in a virtual environment.  But I have seen some groups get awful darn close.

It seemed to me that BTS was one of those groups.  But with the addition of the password its like they've erected a wall.  In one fell swoop, it's become one of those "limited access" suburbs where you can't get past the armed guards at the gate without a pass.  Whatever community existed before will not long survive penned up like that.  It will become, as GL so aptly puts
it, just another club, just another exclusionary group.  It has become that already.  I'm not the only one who hasn't been, and apparently won't be, given a password.

This is not community.  It is a private club.  It's the forum owner's right to run it that way, but I for one miss the old BTS.

I don't think it is hopeless to seek - and find - a sense of community (at least partial community) in forums like this.  But it won't happen in a password protected, private, members-only club.  It's community I was looking for.  Its hard to see that at Countryside because it has become so large.  Just like a big town, its a nice place to visit but I really don't want to "live" there.  I'm not as comfortabel on CS as I grew to be on BTS.

I miss the open, friendly, welcoming (up until the "what's wrong with this forum" thread was started) aura that BTS had.  Even if they finally get around to sending me a password (watch me hold my breath) I'm really not comfortable with the idea of  belonging to a "private club".  I spent way too many years being ostracized and excluded for my whacko ideas (like living in the country, purposely NOT grubbing for money, reading too much, thinking too much, talking too much, and suffering from the
delusion that I shouldn't have to change my opinions to suit anybody but myself, LOL!) to want to belong to a group that excludes others - and gives every indication that given the chance it would have excluded me from the get-go.

BTS as a community is dead.  BTS as a members-only club may very well thrive.  But I don't want to belong to a club.  I want to share in a community, and that includes the folks I don't like as well as the folks I like a lot.  Even folks I don't like can have things to say that I want to hear.  And how about folks I don't even know yet?  If BTS had been closed from the beginning, there are people I wouldn't have met even virtually, let alone in person;  I wouldn't have got to meet Gene Logsdon,
wouldn't have gotten to palaver, discuss, challenge and be challenged by,  commisserate with, a whole lot of people.  All of whom are virtually out of reach now.

I don't know how well this is going to work, but I have to try.  I can only hope that the sense of community that BTS had can be recreated.  I don't know if its possible, and I don't know if anybody would even be interested.  But I think I'm going to try.  Countryside is OK, but its too big.  BTS is dead as a community as far as I'm concerned, not to mention that there is every indication I've been excluded from it anyway.  I know there are others who also have not received passwords.  I think its safe to assume, that there will be many people who will not  "make the grade" on BTS, both now and in the future, and will be excluded.

I would really like to at least TRY to recreate the openess and caring that used to exist on BTS.  I'm not sure I'm the one to do it, but I'll sure give it a try.  I miss the old BTS that much already.
 

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), July 21, 2001

Answers

Hi Sojourner, thank you , I will go to your new web sit, I for one felt a little like I was back in high school, and the Elite group was not going to let me in on anything,{talking about the password thing for beyound the sidewalks forum} Well thats just fine, I am grown now and I don"t need them, Thanks again for new web site, God bless Irene

-- Irene texas (tkorsborn@cs.com), July 21, 2001.

Hey, sojourner, best wishes in your endeavor.

I'll drop by and take a look, but frankly, I'm pretty bored with a lot of the material that is happening on BTS and CS both; when the hot topics are deleted, or the perpetrators are banned from the forum altogether, the conversations risk taking on all the excitement of white bread.

Could you tell me what's wrong, in your opinion, with discussions about religion or politics? I'll admit that lots of folks are so dogmatic and closed minded about their religious beliefs that I've mostly stopped reading their posts altogether, but most everyone has a chance to learn something when talking politics, it seems to me.

jumpoff joe

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), July 21, 2001.

JOJ - nothings wrong with DISCUSSING anything. Unfortunately religion and politics are two things that are almost never discussed; they are fought over. I've been on the net for years, and any time those two subjects are allowed to take a(n originally non-political, non-religious) forum over, it ends up being polarized and angry and unwelcoming to just about everybody.

FWIW, I'm not likely to be too quick with the delete key. We're all grownups here (aren't we?). I have neither the time nor the interest in being a playground cop. Maybe I'm asking too much, but I'm hoping that we won't get much in the way of flaming arrow attacks, and that the majority of the people who choose to participate will willingly adhere to the norms of civility.

Hey, I'm an optimist. What can I say?

And for those who are willing to "come over and look it over", keep in mind, its brand new. There really isn't much to see (heck, ANYTHING at this point, LOL!) and won't be until people start posting.

Take the plungs. And be patient. Good things need time and room to grow.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), July 21, 2001.

Very, very, VERY well-said, Sojourner! Bless you! You've stated my feelings exactly. A member of BTS told me how to get there a while ago, and I enjoyed it, but the password stuff felt like, "You can't play with US anymore, na na nana na". Fine. I'll certainly try your spot and fervently hope it grows and thrives. I admire your common sense.

-- Bonnie (chilton@stateline-isp.com), July 21, 2001.

Thanks Sojourner for some well said words. I was kind of upset when BTS went password protected -- kind of mad even -- but then I realized it was more because my feelings were hurt than anything. Not only for me but for a lot of other people there. I didn't think it was fair to exclude those who don't cause trouble and only come here for info and sharing. I keep wondering...who is in the club anyway and how did they get in??? .

I have mixed feelings about the exclusion of politics and religion in the forums. I can see both sides. I agree that this is America and we should be able to say what is on our minds. On the other hand, things do seems to get out of control. I don't know that excluding those topics is the solution (heck people will find something else...look at the recent "Gladys" thread..whew!). All our lives are so tied to politics and religion to some extent (some more than others, of course) and to exclude those things seems also to not be a realistic community. Just my thoughts. I do agree, however, that like Ken, you run it...you set the rules and I admire and thank you both for your efforts and know it is a thankless difficult job and bless your hearts for undertaking it!

I was a lurker here for a L-O-N-G time. Never could get my courage up to respond or ask a questions, now I seem to have something to say about everything..LOL! But I do respect the opions of others and the fact that sometimes when we type it, it does not come out sounding at all what we are thinking in our heads. You can't hear the "tone" of a post-- only read the words, and I think often we take something as negative when that is not at all what the poster intended. I wish we could all keep that in mind before jumping to conclusions.

Best of luck with your forum and I will be there!

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), July 21, 2001.

Karen - politics and religion aren't EXCLUDED. I just ask that people not make a big issue of them. It's largely voluntary, I'm not going to get delete happy. I hope people will be civil, then there won't be a problem. You're right, some folks will FIND something to fight about. While religion and politics are absolutely not a part of my life in any way shape or form, I understand that they're big deals with some folks. Its because they are that they cause so many problems in small communities like this. They are polarizing issues.

My hope is that the Commons will bring people together, not polarize them. To a certain extent, the whole touchy-feely eco-freak thing is already a level of polarization along political and ethical lines. A certain amount of that really can't be avoided. We'll all have an interest in ecological issues, homesteading, and living more simply with less, even if we don't always agree on specifics. (and wouldn't it be boring if we did ...)

What we'll end up with - I hope - is a sort of virtual intentional community, where whether your a pagan, atheist, buddhist, christian, moslem, democrat, republican, or libertarian doesn't have to be a secret, but it won't be an issue either.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), July 21, 2001.

Blessings with your new endevour with a new forum Sojourner ! The sole reason that BTS went to a password was due to the predatory actions of one person who chose to harass one of the members anonymously, never having the nerve or courage to revel themselves by using a real addy. This same person also harassed the same member when this person was active at CS, a giant bruhaha went on before you came to CS so you don't realize how vindictive this harassment was, it was very personal and went so far as to involve hacking into their home computer!!!

As in ALL communities, there are a few "bad apples" that need attending to, and sometimes not everyone agrees at how to do this attending to, but for BTS, the password was the option that we all voted for. New members can be added through personal recommendation by existing members, so it is not a closed membership, just cautious! As in all communities, we have to protect our own.

Peace and harmony to all,

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), July 21, 2001.

COOL!! I'll check it out. Good Luck DW

-- DW (djwallace@ctos.com), July 21, 2001.

I found bts only weeks before it was gone. I am all for another place to learn and laugh. It seems I am always trying to do something that I need advice on. I will be on the new site - thanks! Joanie

-- Joanie (ber-gust@prodigy.net), July 21, 2001.

I'll be sure to check it out, Sojourner! I want to share what happens to a closed community. Last Fall, I joined, with my "friends" from a chatroom, a club on Yahoo. We wanted to be able to say whatever we wanted without the chatroom police showing up! Yeah, right! It went well for awhile until the person who set it up didn't understand my humor and deleted a post. Life just wsn't the same after that. "Gotta watch what you say"! Needless to say, the club gradually went the way of most closed communities and quite a few are not speaking to one another. In a closed group, there is no growth...there is a fear of offending one another and that leads to no differing opinions! BORING! I wish BTS well! I didn't get the password...boo hoo! LOL! I didn't ask for it either! I enjoy CS so much. Even if I don't agree with a post, I learn something from it! I hope your new forum does very well, but please come here and post too, Sojourner, as I find you very interesting! God bless!

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), July 21, 2001.

I used to post on the BTS site.... just not the same anymore...I'll check yours out too thanks...Doc --- Missouri

-- Doc (thisisdoc@aol.com), July 21, 2001.

Sojourner, I wish you luck on your new forum and will stop in now and then to see whats going on.

Beyond that, I'd like to echo Annies thots. BTS was growing very rapidly and such growth attracts attention---sometimes undesireable attention.

It is well known to many of us "liberals" that we're one notch down from the anti-christ and stalin in the eyes of some and MANY people who are now on BTS were harassed, hacked, virused etc., presumably by those who differed philosophically as such "attacks" usually happened after heated exchanges on CS.

You say you've been lurking at CS almost since its inception. If thats the case then you are surely aware of some of the brawls we had here over religion and politics. Thus the birth of BTS, a safe haven for those of us who are more liberally inclined.

When BTS went "password" it was done quickly because it appeared "someone" was out to cause dissention and strife within the forum. The same someone, it is suspected, is the one who was bashing one of BTS members, apparently hoping to create division and paranoia. Many folks have requested "admittance" and the forum administrators are working on it.

While I understand your "hurt" and anger bear with us for a bit till it gets straightened out. Its not that we're elitist or "snobs". We just like a peaceful, sharing community and that was being threatened.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 22, 2001.

Hi Sojourner, what a neat idea. Gonna check your new site out. I've also been on CS forum forever, and I really love it here, but I also miss being able to just chat about alot of different topics. I never posted at BTS, but read it alot. Was sad to see it go exclusive. Really liked the essay from Gene Logsdon. I'm going to have to get some of his books. Hey, maybe you can give us all some good overviews on the best ones to start out with, over on the new forum?! Thanks so much for the invite.

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), July 22, 2001.

Jonn, I read your posting early this morning. I decided to take a time out for awhile before I answered. Didn't want to come back straight from the shoulder, if you know what I mean.

I don't think you understood my posting, or maybe you didn't read it all the way through. (Wouldn't blame you, it WAS long).

I didn't run out and start a new forum with my little lip pouting out, out of pique or anger or even hurt. I thought about this for a good long time. I discussed it with a couple of online friends. This isn't a playground coup.

My decision to start a new forum stems from a firmly rooted belief system that tells me that exclusive groups lack diversity and growth potential, and that excluding large groups of others for no particular reason is just plain, well, wrong. I have never joined any exclusive group as an adult because I don't like them, am not comfortable in them, and feel they are of limited or no benefit to me as an individual. The only exclusive group I ever joined as a child (teenager actually) was NHS.

I just plain don't like the aura of exclusionary superiority most such groups take on. And don't tell me wasn't part of the impetus behind closing BTS - it was. I quote badly, since I can't get on the forum to get the exact wording, but I'll quote nevertheless: "Original members thoughts and feelings count for more than you newbies."

Sorry, John. You're barking up the wrong tree on this one. For me, this is about ethics, not anger.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), July 22, 2001.

John, bear with me, because I too, was having a problem with the "invitation only" set up on BTS. There are alot of people there, that I really respect and like. But I read the "what's wrong with the forum" thread and was disappointed with the remarks that only the original posters would have a say and "they" would have to get to know you before you were "accepted"! Hit me in the face like a white breaded, elitist country club. Liberal????? I didn't feel comfortable to post there, because I was never invited and didn't know if it was invitation only or what from the beginning, and I didn't want to crash the party. Kind of like showing up at a private party, uninvited, instead of a new town, like it was described by some. The one thing that bothered me was, you all said it was a small town and you should introduce yourself, like we just moved to town. Well, I figured we were already from the same small town. Countryside. And everyone already knew each other. so then, it comes down to this.... If most of the people who would visit BTS are from this forum, why the selective "judging" on who gets on? Just asking.

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), July 22, 2001.

Sojourner and Annie: I really can't speak for anyone else but myself but here's the way I see it.

Many of the "old timers" on BTS were simply fed up with the cyber attacks in various forms, so the group was founded to afford us a safe haven. Judging by what has happened on CS several times, some big brawl occurs, some get attacked, then suddenly paranoia runs rampant. People who'd previously been cyber buddies no longer trust one another and division and estrangement occurs.

The really sad thing about the whole affair is I KNOW alot of well meaning, contributing, good folks were excluded when the passwords were sent out but thats the problem---who do you trust with the password and who don't you trust? Do you know how to get past that hurdle?

While I understand and respect your "ethical" stand on this, society in general is routinely exclusionary, but in society the law has the ability to jail people who perform "anti-social" acts and thats not an option here.

Anyway Sojourner, I wish you luck with your new forum.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), July 22, 2001.

Thanks John, for responding to my questions. Enough said on the subject, huh? I guess you can beat a dead horse long enough, then it's time to move on.

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), July 22, 2001.

"who do you trust with the password and who don't you trust? Do you know how to get past that hurdle? "

Yup. Don't have a password. Pretty simple, really.

I've been cyber attacked myself, and its why I don't like to publish my e-mail address on public forums. Oddly enough I took considerable heat for that recently (honestly not sure if that was on this forum or BTS, but it doesn't really matter I spoze). The general feeling seemed to be I was being a big fat wimp, 'cuz a cyber attack isn't like REALLY being followed home ... LOL!

Ethics is ethics. I live by my philosophy. And if society in general is exclusionary, well, society in general also seems to be greedy and self-centered. Doesn't mean I have to follow suit.

Had I known BTS was intended to be this exclusionary, I never would have horned in to start with. Like Annie said, it's like showing up at what you THOUGHT and had described to you was a public event, only to find out that it was really a private party. So you kind of back out of there, slooooowly, so as not to draw any more hostile looks than your blundering in where you're not wanted has already garnered.

Well, enjoy. You WILL be welcome if you choose to come on over. So's anybody else. No mistakes here. No mixed messages. This is an open forum, I'm the forum owner, and anybody who wants to come on over and play nice is more than welcome. Even if you're not a liberal, whacko, watermelon eco-freak. LOL!

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), July 22, 2001.

Thanks Sojourner, had to check in here to read about your forum. Will check it out.

"Even if you're not a liberal, whacko, watermelon eco-freak. LOL!"

That would be me. The NOT part, that is! He-he!

Thanks for the "openess" and the opportunity to discuss ideas....without the "safety" that comes from dialogue only with your "own kind." (So to speak) People seem willing to forgo much for the illusion of "safety." Ah well, so it goes. Good Luck!

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), July 23, 2001.

Sorry John but I still think it is Elitist BS. If someone wants to "join" you must be invited by a member. Well, it's pretty damn hard to know who the members are of your secret society. Obviously, I must be pretty peeved. You have ripped me out of my lurking with the ignorance I see written, no matter how well justified.

-- Laura (LauraLeekis@home.com), July 27, 2001.

Sojourner -

You seem to be struggling to find a balance between limits and openness, between values and judgements. These days, it is poplular for people to exhort, "Don't judge." This of course, is itself a statement of judgement or moral preference. It is self-contradictory, and it's implications are chaos. We must judge actions to be right or wrong, and we must strive to build a coherent system of thought on which those judgements are to be based. This is philosophy 101.

Similarly, some might exhort, "Don't Exclude." But this, too, is simplistic, and nonsensical. The small town which Lodgsden praises is exclusive, though perhaps by default: perhaps the town of which he spoke was still small at the time only because more people had not yet chosen to move there, offspring had not yet grown so rapidly as to swell the population to what we would call "large." But we agree that if it were much larger in population, it would begin to lose it's "small" character. The populus would then have decisions to make about immigration, land use, transfer policy, etc. In other words, they would have to become, you guessed it, "exclusive."

How then can we resolve the tension between the values of welcoming/openness and the necessity of being closed/restricted? First, we have to acknowledge our limits. We are finite beings. We each have only so much time, energy, and resources. Saying, "sorry, I'm at my limit" is not necessarily a sin. You don't invite the whole neighborhood over for dinner every Saturday; you invite one family or a few friends over, so as to get to know them better. Maybe you've had those friends over dozens of times before. We need that kind of intimacy. But we also need to reach out to the whole neighborhood, and to new neighbors, and so on.

Then we must ask, "on what basis shall I limit?" or "How will I define my limits? (of interaction with others, and with resources)" That, obviously is an onqoing concern, and requires us to think through our basic values, etc. It opens up the proverbial can of worms.

The problem with modern life, and especially with electronic media, is that they are OUT OF SCALE with our physical makeup, our natual limits. If we realize this, then we can take measures to limit modern structures, or limit our participation in them, and certainly limit our EXPECTATIONS of them. This is implicit in your quote from Logsden, and explicit in his work and that of Wendell Berry, E.F. Schumacher, and others. You said that you did not think that true community as desscribed by G.L. was possible on these forums. But for you to say that some groups have come awful close to the example you cited, and that you wish to try again, shows that you did not grasp Logsden's point.

Yes, I want to build the kind of community described. Does my participation in this forum, then, constitute hypocrasy? No. At least, I don't think so at this point. My intention and expectation of this forum is that we may exchange information that will contribute to building communities, yours where you are, and mine where I am. This forum could be considered an association. We could be considered aquaintances, or collaborators; but community, no. That requires limits in physical proximity and numbers of people, and all the other factors that follow, e.g., weather, vegetation, history, etc. It also requires continutity in relationships, or social stability.

I don't know whether to wish you well with your discussion group, and to hope that it thrives, or to hope that it fails. But if it fails, I don't wish for you a loss of the connections that you seek, but a gain; a gain in the more permanent and prosperous setting of a small town.

-- Bob in Ohio (robertblessum@netscape.net), July 27, 2001.

I have a little fishing hole on my property, kind of small, but very pretty. For a while I let the neighbor kids all fish there and for the most part they all played pretty nice. Eventually a couple of kids living a little farther out found the fishing hole and, even though it was getting a little crowded, I let them come anyway. They went in to the neighboring little town and announced that I had an “open” fishing hole and the next thing I knew all sorts of stuff was happening on my property that I didn’t approve of. Even worse, some kids that didn’t even like or want to fish were lurking around throwing stones at the kids who did want to. So, I put up a fence and told all the children they had to ask permission before they could fish. If that was elitist B.S., so be it. It was my fishing hole.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), July 27, 2001.

Another new forum would be great, but they aren't new. Some folks post the same questions on all 3 of the forums already in place! I do enjoy BTS and Freedom mostly because some of my ousted goat friends are on them! I actually will scroll to the top of the page just to make sure which site I am on! I hope all of the forums flourish, just hope they also take on somewhat of their own flavors after awhile! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), July 27, 2001.

Was going to let this drop, but have some direct questions...Are ALL the people who posted on BTS, invited to join now, if so, why and if not, why not? Who determines who gets invited? What makes a person qualify to be asked? Thanks.

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), July 27, 2001.

I have a little fishing hole on my property, kind of small, but very pretty. For a while I let the neighbor kids all fish there and for the most part they all played pretty nice. Eventually a couple of kids living a little farther out found the fishing hole and, even though it was getting a little crowded, I let them come anyway. They went in to the neighboring little town and announced that I had an “open” fishing hole and the next thing I knew all sorts of stuff was happening on my property that I didn’t approve of. Even worse, some kids that didn’t even like or want to fish were lurking around throwing stones at the kids who did want to. So, I put up a fence and told all the children they had to ask permission before they could fish. If that was elitist B.S., so be it. It was my fishing hole.

-- rick K (rick_122@hotmail.com), July 27, 2001.

(Please disregard the post above. It is a clipboard copy of Dianes response made in error. I had pasted it in my response for reference purposes and would have deleted it after composing but I accidently hit submit.)

My response:

Diane

You seem bitter about the people excluded from BTS. ( I wouldn't have expected you to respond to this. You asked me not to stir anything up about the conversion of BTS to the select few and I have managed to do this).

Anyway, sorry about the way your fishing hole became public with vandalism ocurring. I don't think your analogy works however. I think this would be a good analogy: You allowed me to use your fishing hole, and I did so respecting you, the others and your property. Another person that you allowed to fish didn't fish after all and was throwing rocks all around, causing a commotion or injuries. You then state that everyone must get permission on an individual basis. When I ask to fish the next day you tell me no.

-- rick K (rick_122@hotmail.com), July 27, 2001.

Do I live in a cave or what? Here I thought Diane was telling us a nice little story! I got the analogy and all, just not the same one as you Rick! Vicki who's kids tell her all the time she needs to come out of the woods more often!!

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), July 28, 2001.

Sorry people, obviously responding was a poor choice on my part. Not bitter at all Rick, disgusted would be more discriptive. I was simply disgusted that a small group of people that wanted to meet together somehow were under attack for not wanting a bunch of lurkers to read everything they wrote or their members attacked on other forums by people that we thought were freinds. When we closed up it was with only the original members getting passwords. Our administrator was having some real health problems and didn't have time to answer all requests AS RAPIDLY as some would have liked and the attacks and whining began. Enough said..........when I closed my fishing hole, true story by the way, I didn't feel that I needed to justify my decisions at all and I don't think our moderator needed to either. It was his, and still is his. And FYI, some of the original kids in my neighborhood do NOT fish at my house because I did not and the other kids did not appreciate their behavior.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), July 28, 2001.

"that a small group of people that wanted to meet together..", "only original members getting passwords...". Thank you Diane for finally being straight and clearing up this whole mess. The problem most people had, was that the forum was described as a small town. You know, you can move in, just introduce yourself and welcome to the community. One of the original members or the moderator should have come out at the beginning and said it was a private conversation. End of story. Although some would have been disappointed, they would have gotten over it and moved on much sooner. Sometimes it much easier and nicer to be direct. I guess the biggest problem I had was, I like alot of the people that post on BTS, and I could not picture in my mind, that they were the type to be so judgmental and selective on what I thought was a more open forum. Lesson learned....if people would just communicate straight forward, at the start, it saves alot of misunderstandings and hurt fealings. Thanks.

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), July 28, 2001.

We did communicate right at the start what we wanted our forum to be. Problem is - most of the folks who are upset now were not at our forum in the beginning, and did not bother to go to the archives and read all the beginning stuff when they came over to us. BTS started out invitation only, using the names from the Pagan thread on Countryside as a base for the invite list. We had a long discussion on the board about bringing in new people; several of us suggested friends that we missed from CS that we thought would be a good fit; or people we knew in real life. We also included some posters who found us and had participated for a while. We didn't go out looking for people because many of us were still sitting back licking our wounds from the last go-round on CS.

The forum has been listed on Lusenet since it's inception in April. Any one who wanted to come take a look could have easily done so before we went password protected. BTS is not a "Homesteading" forum per see. It is a discussion group of many subjects that occasionally includes homesteading topics, by a group of people who met on CS and were drawn to one another by common interests. Many of our discussions are spiritual in nature; and are in conflict with the religious beliefs of some people on CS.

Why we went password protected has been explained ad nauseum. Why we haven't passed out the password to everyone who has asked has also been explained. Will we be handing out passwords soon? Not real soon, Jim needs a rest, our gardens are swamping us and we'd like to let things settle down a little. Will everyone who wants a password get one? No. We've been called exclusionary, elitist, snobs..... Well, here's a question for you - would you invite a disruptive, unpleasant person into your home? No? Well, we don't want to either. BTS is somewhere we feel safe and comfortable in saying what we want to say. We could have left BTS an open board and gone and started a new password protected one and moved over to it, but why should we have to? We already started one new forum to get away from the unpleasant folk.

Laura, I don't recall ever seeing a post from you on BTS, so I'm not certain why you are upset at being excluded. If you lurked, you should recognize enough of the names from CS and Sojo's new board in order to be able to e-mail one of the participants and ask to be admitted. I do feel badly for the folks that enjoyed lurking on our forum and are now shut out; but not to a great extent. Here's another analogy for you: Every week you have a big pot-luck dinner and everyone brings a dish to share. Well, almost everyone. Suddenly, you start to notice that some folks are sharing the supper without bringing in a dish to share. There's enough to go around, and you worry that maybe they need the meal, so you don't say anything. Then they start griping about the configuaration of the tables and the way you always set the crock pots next to the salads when everyone knows they ought to be next to the vegetables. It's not as much fun as it used to be; in fact, it's getting to be more and more of a chore and a bore, so it slowly dwindles away as the core group makes quiet plans to meet somewhere else from then on. And the person who never brought a dish to share is standing in the empty hall complaining because no one told him where they were going.

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why folks are upset. Most of us post at BTS, FSR and CS; and now some of us have gone over and been made welcome at Sojo's new board. We're the same people no matter what forum we're posting on - why can't we have one place seperate?

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), July 28, 2001.