What ruins your dining experience? A waitron pushing refreshing carbonated beverages in your direction? People at the next table talking too loudly? Crying babies? Bad food? Share your horror stories.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Answers

People at the next table talking too loudly. Especially if it's to tell sex stories or say fuck, shit or asshole as every other word. This has happened more than once to me. People who are letting their children shriek, run around or otherwise create a scene (I'm not talking about a little baby crying though). A terrible server - rude, inattentive or unsanitary looking. Bad food doesn't ruin the experience unless it's coupled with one of the above.

Most of this doesn't beother me if it occurs in a fast food establishment (I can't say restaturant) because I almost expect it of these places. It gets to me when I'm paying $40.00/person for a meal not inlcuding alcohol.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Every week on the way to drawing class I stop at Wendy's.

Last week when I sat down I was the only person in the whole place. Not a single other diner. I took a small table by the window, opened my book and started eating and reading.

About five minutes later a woman came in with two kids, about 3 and 5. After looking around the completely empty (other than me) room for about two minutes she walked over and sat them all down at the table right next to me. I could reach out and touch their table if I wanted to.

I was stunned. I have nothing against kids, I love kids and usually I like to watch kids and wish I had one. But I don't understand why she would see a woman alone, reading, and think that sitting as close to me as possible, when there were somewhere around 30 other tables to choose from, was the right choice. If the place was crowded I would have had no issues but I just didn't get it.

I hate it when people do this in the movie theater too. No one else in the whole theater and they have to plunk themselves down in the two seats directly in front of us. At the very least shift over two seats so I don't have to lean through the whole damn movie.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

When people let their kids run around table to table, and then say things like, "Isn't she entertaining?" No. No, your child is not entertaining me by coming up to my table and interupting my conversation, or by hanging over the back of my chair. If I wanted a child at my table I will bring one with me.

Babies cry, that's what they do. Kids act up, that's what kids do. I accept that, and in chain restaurants, I expect it, because they are family appropriate places to eat, but it drives me nuts when parents aren't making an effort to keep their kids in line, even if it isn't working. Just show me that you are trying, and I will sympathize with you. I am pretty hardcore on children not being allowed to dine out with their parents until they have been taught proper table etiquette though.

The only other thing that bugs me are waiters that try to intimidate patrons into spending more than they wanted to, and the ones that push bottles of wine at the table, offering a bottle at every course, and dessert. Yeah, I got it, you sell wine by the bottle here. Thanks. Now, go away.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Kids running around in restaurants. Babies crying. I know, that's what they do, but it still annoys me.

People talking loudly might be interesting depending on if they're worth overhearing. People on cell phones are nearly always annoying because they're rarely interesting and are usually yelling.

Servers pushing anything infuriates me. I've twice in the last month had a weird experience: a server offers some kind of free sample and I say no thanks. The server then says "Are you SURE? It's really good!" etc. Whether it's telemarketers or my mother in law, one thing that really works my nerves is being pestered like this. I TOLD you no thanks - what part of that don't you understand?

I hate servers who seem condescending or try to be intimidating. If I ask how something is cooked or request that they leave the onions off, the server should act like that's no problem and they're happy to oblige, even if back in the kitchen they complain about the bitch at table seven. If I want my steak well done or my hamburger plain, what's it to you? You'd be amazed at how many will say "You want it DRY? Ugh!"

And of course, bad food is always a problem.

I have a friend who's seriously allergic to nuts - I mean, to the point where she could die. She HAS to ask if things contain them and has many stories of servers arguing with her about this. She has even had them lie about whether things contained nuts, and one time she ate some of the dish before she realized that. She nearly died, and she sued that restaurant and won.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Not a lot bothers me in restaurants because I worked in the industry a lot as a teen and I know how much it sucks. Especially customers that get all huffy if you only refill their water glass 8 times.

However, one thing that REALLY pisses me off is the assumptions that:

• If I am with a woman we are on a date
• If I order dessert and she doesn't they should bring two forks anyway because she'll "just have a bite of mine."
• That the check should be put in front of me because I'm the dude.

No one eats my dessert but me. If the woman wants dessert, she can damn well order her own.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Holy fuck I can't believe how bad my grammar is in that last post. I think Beth will smite me dead.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Chain restaurants like Chilli's, Olive Garden, etc. annoy the crap out of me with these waiters who want to be my best friend and joke with me and start conversations. Shut up! Serve me food, not your scripted monologue, you nimwit! Have these people never gone to a -real- restaurant where the waiters are seen but never heard, and if you should need something, all you have to do is look up, make eye contact, and they'll be right there?! Obviously not... "Service Industry" is an oxymoron.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Oh, that last post reminded me of my biggest pet peeve. Restaurants where the server sits down at your table next to you to take your order. I realize it's part of their training, and they will probably get into trouble if they don't do it, but it annoys the fuck out of me. You're not my friend, and I didn't come here to make friends -- I came here to eat. I'm sure someone did a study that shows that patrons feel like the waiter is their friend, and will order more food or something that way. Ugh.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

I don't like the assumption that the male I'm with plans to pay. Esp. if I'm the one whose asked that the bill be brought over. It really isn't any harder to set that bill in the middle of the table if you aren't sure than it is to guess at who is the person claiming it.

I don't care much for loud crowded places when I'm eating, but I figure that irritation is my own problem - I'm not going to fault the place for being popular.

I really REALLY hate the trend of wait staff being overly buddy buddy and plopping themselves down in a chair at the table to take the order, and engaging in sarcastic 'witty' repartee (hello, I don't know you, and you're interrupting the conversation we were having). I accept that this may make me a snob, but wait staff should be like having helpful elves - they're invisible unless you want to see them, and the stuff you want shows up with a minimal amount of thought on your part about how to get someone's attention so that can happen and without having to converse with them more than necessary.

Number one complaint - I don't want to hear any restaurant worker's complaints about any other staff member there. You manager sucks? That's nice...I don't care. My food is late because your cook is an idiot - don't tell me that, just nicely tell me how long it's going to take to get it to me. I don't want to be told you're really short staffed when I ask for something. That makes me feel guilty for asking - until I remember that I'm paying to be here and don't have anything to feel guilty about. Basically, don't remind me overmuch that this is a business where conditions aren't so great - while that probably is true (restaurant work always is), if I associate your place with unhappy employees, I'm not going to want to spend any more of my money there.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Kim - I was just thinking about that. Or the ones who squat down next to your chair and slap their little order pad onto the table and hang out with their elbows up and their little eyebrows waggling, making stupid jokes that make you want to put their eyes out with a breadstick. (Can I get that without mayo?" "No! hahahaha!")

I won't go to chains or family restaurants more. Which means I can never, ever eat in New Jersey for as long as I live. Darn.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Noise pollution is a big one - tables all crammed in too close, crappy Mariah Carey on 'ludes music playing too loud and rotten rotten acoustics all add up to people shouting at each other to be heard. With perfect hearing, it can be annoying; if you're hearing aided, it can turn your stomache. Waitstaff who TOUCH THE FREAKING TABLE and/or SQUAT to take the order. ew ew ew ew - I wasn't the world's greatest waitress but it was piledriven into my head - the table is your customer's personal space while they're occupying it - touching the table is just as bad as touching them. Touching the table to loom over me while waiting for my order is creepifying.

Squatting is some bizarre attempt to appear casual and friendly - like go ahead BREATHE on my eating surface- thanks a bunch. One guy said he did it to HEAR BETTER - ha!

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

1)Customers who ask me my name without offering theirs, customers who ask me my name, and then proceed to introduce all 5 members of their party to me. 2) Customers who insist that they're ready to order, and then spend 10 minutes reading the menu while I wait. When the first 3 people at your table tell me "I'll go last, just get someone else's order first" you, as a table, are NOT ready to order. As far as your waiter bringing two forks when you order a dessert, David, I'll try not doing that tonight. I'll let you know tomorrow how many people sent me back for that extra fork.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

The whole kids running amok thing gets me. We worked hard to make certain our kids were behaved and had decent table manners and they absolutely were never allowed down out of the chair unsupervised (as in, needing to go to the restroom), much less allowed to just roam around and bother other patrons. The little kids who hang over a booth and drop things -- a spoon, pudding, and my all-time favorite, spaghetti -- on your head and giggle and the parents think they're cute? They're all going to hell.

I get annoyed with someone telling me I can't have something done a certain way which isn't difficult to do and was originally suggested by someone else at that establishment as an option. Especially after I've had it like that a dozen times and specifically go back to that place because they cook it the way I like it. bah.

I loathe customers who give waitstaff a hard time when they're really trying and it's beyond their control.

But the all-time worst for me which will ruin my meal and pretty much guarantee that I never return is the management trying to make one of their servers the scapegoat for some mistake on the management's part, or yelling at them or belittling them where the customers can hear.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Wow, Mady, remind me never ever to go to the restaurant where you're working. Because I think that yes, I should be able to know your name if you're the waitress and no, you don't get to know mine. You are being paid to provide a service, and I am allowed to complain if you do it badly. I ask customer service reps their names when I call to resolve something with a company, why not you?

And I haaaaaate that two-forks thing. I'm sorry if you have to make an extra trip to the kitchen for the cutesy couples who need to have an extra fork. You poor thing, I'm sure it will wear you out. I order dessert, you bring an extra fork, and I'm having to fend off my food when friends think this is an invitation to share. I come out of it looking greedy, which certainly isn't going to inspire me to tip you.

You know what's worse than the server automatically putting the check in front of the man? When I was in college, I'd pay the bill with a credit card ... and the server would put the charge slip, etc. in front of the man even though it had my name on it (and my real name is unmistakably female). It reached the point where I felt those people were too stupid to get a tip. Fortunately that doesn't happen to me anymore.

Here's what I really dislike about eating out: When something goes wrong, if you start to make a fuss about it, that ruins the dining experience for everyone else at the table. There is no discreet way to send back your meal because your fish is half-raw or your soup is ice-cold. You can suffer through a crappy meal, or you can complain and look like a picky bitch. I wish restaurants would devise a way to handle this without the staff turning it into a major incident. Even worse, they turn it into a big production and you still don't get what you want.

Beth, you've made me never want to eat in an Olive Garden. Not that I ever frequented the place, but a place that encourages waitstaff to question my drink order isn't a place where I want to be.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

The problem is, when people want to know the server's name, 9 times out of 10 it is so that they can put that right hand of theirs up in the air, snap their fingers, and then screech the server's name out - a sort of ruder version of how I call my dog.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Wow, that Olive Garden thing's been blown out of proportion. News flash for the huge numbers of people who've apparently never bothered to consider the fact before: That's how the restaurant business works.

I used to work for a company that published training materials for restaurant employees. Many of its lessons taught suggestive selling - how to offer add-on items, appetizers, side orders, desserts, soft drinks instead of water and (in some cases) alcoholic beverages instead of soft drinks - in order to make more money.

Wait staff are salespeople. Their job is to sell food and beverages and provide satisfactory service - which can include informing patrons of what's available for them to buy. Presumably, when people go to a restaurant, they are aware of this arrangement and understand that they're going to be spending money on their meal. There's nothing sinister, outrageous or deceptive about a salesperson trying to sell more products to willingly paying customers.

So gee whiz, the Olive Garden trains its employees to suggest customers order a $1.50 soft drink instead of a free water. And oh heavens, the training manual's sponsored by Coca-Cola. Well, that's another things restaurants do. They form partnerships with suppliers to get good deals on products, so they can make more profits and stay in business. Stop the presses.

This is nothing underhanded, and it's certainly nothing new. Yeah, "H2-No!" is a silly slogan. You try coming up with new snappy catchphrases that all mean the same thing. I heard much worse in my training-company days. But nobody's forbidding anyone to order water if they want it, or forcing them to drink Coke instead. If you oppose suggestive selling, then exercise your free will and just don't buy things you don't really want.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Hey, is it only a coincidence your email domain is toastyfried.org?

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Bad service is the single greatest annoyance for me. I understand if the place is packed that the server may be rushed or less attentive. But when business is reasonable or even slow and it's still impossible to get a tea refill, or the check, without a lot of waiting and signaling (and often eye-rolling from them), something's wrong.

Too-attentive service is almost as bad. I used to work a night shift and I'd go to dinner sometimes at a steak house near the office. I'd want to just read and eat in peace, and one particular waitress seemed to pop by every 5-10 minutes to as "is everything ok?" .. interrupting both my reading and eating for nothing.

Granted, wait staff shouldn't have to read a customer's mind to figure out what they want. But it seems to me if one person is contentedly eating and reading a book, while another keeps looking over and trying to catch your eye and pointing to his empty tea glass, it should be apparent which one you need to talk to.



-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

why on earth do you need to know your server's name? it has nothing to do with the service s/he's providing. are you really going to call out "Oh, Susan, I'd like some more water please."

I hate the whole name tag concept. You can just say "sir" or "ma'am" or "miss" or whatever. I don't think a server should have to give up their name to everyone when they'll not remember it once they're out the door. It's part of that whole fake chumminess thing, which I hate as well.. we're not friends or buddies, I don't need to know the server's name, they don't need to know mine. unless they are really good, then I might ask it so I can praise them to the manager or ask for them again or something.

tables too close is another peeve. I was on a date with a friend, and both of us were totally distracted by the obvious first-date of a couple of over-intellectual self-conscious grad students trying to impress each other. it would have been funny except I was trying to get to know my date, and I kept having to hear "I love the Tolkein books" "Oh really? I hate fantasy books. I mean, what's the point?" it didn't help that they disagreed on everything, but still kept trying to impress each other. I just wanted to tell them both to call it off and stop cramping our style..

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

"why on earth do you need to know your server's name? it has nothing to do with the service s/he's providing."

Because when the server treats you well and you you want to tell the manager that, just saying "That blonde chick" isn't all that clear.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

My pet peeve is the whole drama of getting bad service because I'm eating alone. The primary incident occured on my 25th birthday, when I was having Chinese food in Cambridge (UK not MA). I went in, they wanted to know if I was picking up an order to take away, I said no I wanted to dine there, they said they didn't have a table and showed me the counter. I didn't want to sit at the counter, so I had to wait. Then, before any other customers left, a couple came in and wham! they were led upstairs. I complained, got a large table all for me, read a wonderful book, had the best crab-and-sweetcorn soup I've ever tasted in my life, and left not a penny tip.

(Normally, I will always tip, because I know that it doesn't just go to the server, and I hate stiffing the busboys--if my problem is with one particular member of the staff, I'll make a verbal complaint to the manager. But I was annoyed enough at this to make an exception.)

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Wow, that Olive Garden thing's been blown out of proportion. News flash for the huge numbers of people who've apparently never bothered to consider the fact before: That's how the restaurant business works.

I think people have a right to be irritated by it, even if it is "how the business works." Then all that means is the industry sucks, not that we can't question it or be irritated. Of course, to me, this is just another example of how Capitalism makes everything suck in some way or another. (Curtis, I'll be waiting for your reply).

I forgot all about the tables-too-close-together thing. It's especially bad when I'm eating by myself somewhere, reading a book, and I can't concentrate because of the people next to me talking. When it *really* bugs me, though, is when I go into a restaurant that's empty save for one table, and I get seated right next to them. I almost always ask to move to the other side of the room in that case.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

So Dorothy, was it the same person that asked you to take a counter seat that ended up serving you your meal? Because if it wasn't, not tipping them is a lot like not paying your secretary because you don't like something your accountant did. And a lot of people do this - because they don't like the hostess, they don't tip the waitress. Or because they don't like the restaurant's policy, they don't tip the waitress. Like she is the one who sets the policy.

And Jette? Who said this: "I'm sorry if you have to make an extra trip to the kitchen for the cutesy couples who need to have an extra fork. You poor thing, I'm sure it will wear you out. ." How do you feel when people are condescending about your job? How would it it be if I ran my admin assistant around like this, in a more deliberately inefficient manner, and then said to her, "Poor thing, I;m sure it will wear you out."

The best waitresses I ever watched work where the most efficient people I have ever seen - the economy of motion is staggering, and it made them great waitresses. But every time they have to make a special trip for something, it slows everything down.

And if an extra fork on the table is a problem for you, the problem isn't your waitress - it is the person you are dining with, for being rude enough to eat off of your plate without your express invitation to do so.

I spent many years behind a bar, watching customers treat waitstaff like shit, and while I agree there are some crappy servers out there, there are far, far more dreadful customers - people who mistake service for servitude. People have crappy, crappy attitudes about service staff, about how it is appropriate to treat them, and it always amazes me to see people who make such a big deal about appropriate workplace behaviours in their own offices go into other people's workplaces and behave like boors.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Word to your mama, trouble. I don't give a crap about the name thing (you won't get your waiter's name at Spago's) and I hate the 6 inches between different tables, too... my butt, slight and firm as it is, will simply not fit without bumping someone's green tea all over the table.

I'm glad we've had this discussion, especially with Mady & Katrin. Mady, whose restaurant I will never go to, and Katrin, who thinks that "Wait staff are salespeople" have encouraged me to rethink my tip. I tip at 15% for bare minimum service (not having to wait more than 5 minutes for a refill) and 20% for good service (never having to wait for drinks, apps, etc.) Thanks to this subject, I'm going to phase into 10%-15%-20%... the only way to get 20% will be to provide excellent service, not suggesting -anything- unless asked, and leaving me the hell alone. Again... it is a "service industry," not a sales meeting. The "business" part of my decision to dine ended when I chose your restaurant. And since my return visit is more valuable than whether I choose water vs. coke, don't offer.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

The two-fork thing... Kristin you're right that economy of motion is a good talent to have - but when I waitressed, I kept a stock of frequently asked-for items on me, either in pockets or on my tray.

If it's really a frequent problem there are ways to solve it that don't involve being intrusive to the customer - it's not *their* problem, it's the wait staff's problem.

Things like just bringing two forks, or setting the check down in front of one person or another - this can cause real complications for the people dining, because if it doesn't reflect the wishes of one or the other of them, they basically have to 'take back' an offer they didn't make. Someone winds up having to share a dessert they didn't intend to, to be polite. Someone winds up picking up the tab when they didn't intend to, because they don't want to shove that bill back across the table to the other person.

The wait staff shouldn't make their customer's dining experience uncomfortable, not for the sake of saving themselves a few steps.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Morpheus, I'm not very eloquent, so I'll point you to Kristin's post above. It's not the server's fault that they have to suggest soft drinks--it's restaurant policy. It's also not the server's fault that the tables are too close together. Or that the hostess treated you badly, or the burger was medium well and you wanted medium. It's not the restaurant's responsibility to guess what will make every customer happy---if you don't like the food, or the layout, or the policy, don't go there again. But please, don't take it out on the server.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I hear ya, Lynda, but I have to say, if a total stranger pulled a fork out of their pants pocket and put it on my table with the expectation that I eat off of it, I would probably throw up right there on the table top.

As for the bill, I am always stunned how many people don't get it that the bill is almost always set in front of the person that asked for it at the end of the meal. So when the waitress comes by and says, "Will there be anything else?" if you want the bill, be the person that says no, thank you, and we would like the cheque, please. Because a lot of the women that bitch about this problem let their husbands ask for the bill, and in that case, the only polite thing to do is give the bill to the person that requested it.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Susan,

I'm not sure if Morph is laying the blame on the waitstaff as if they CHOSE to act that way, he's saying he doesn't want the offer.

By the way, I *hate* tipping. The entire concept of it is fucked up. I always tip 20% because I know my fellow workers in the restaurant industry don't make minimum wage (well, not the waitstaff). Still, tipping is basically the restaurant getting out of the responsibility to pay it's employees well, adding a hidden price to the menu, and puts too much power over someone's livelihood in the hands of the customer. I've overheard too many people talk about undertipping or not tipping because they didn't get enough refills on their drink, or the food was not good (not the waitstaff's fault) or any other bullshit reason.

I wish waitstaff got paid a decent *living* wage and tipping were done away with. It would probably mean "bad service" for many of us if they did, which I think is what we all want. I don't want suggestions for my meal unless I ask, I don't want an extra fork unless I ask, I don't want to know your name, I don't want to have you sit at my table, and I don't want you to have to degrade yourself with phony smiles and tiny miniskirts like a dog begging for scraps. I just want my damned food.

(Note, living wage, not minimum wage)

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Susan, don't apologize for being uneloquent... I mean, did you even -read- my post? I've obviously been in the lab for too long, when I write like that...

I agree with you, to a certain extent. If my steak is prepared incorrectly, if the host was rude, if the table was dirty, I know that it wasn't the server's fault. But the server -is- responsible for everything that comes out of their mouth. My first legal job was at a chain restaurant and I know about the pressures/incentives placed on wait people to push drinks/apps/deserts... but the best servers, the people who had customers asking to be seated in their section, and who got the biggest tips, were the ones who were always -right- there with a refill, kept the food on-time (or kept the patrons informed, if not), weren't overly chummy but always quick with a smile, and did not make the customer feel awkward with sales pitches.

I will talk to the manager if something bad went down, but ultimately, the server is the face of the restaurant....and if they weren't able to help my experience at their restaurant go any better, their tip will reflect that. While I'm not one to say that my tip has to be earned not lost, I recognize that my tip is my final voice on the service I was provided.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

My only issue with tipping lower because the waitperson was suggestive selling is that I've known people who have been fired for not doing so. At a lot of the chain restaurants they use "secret shoppers" to evaluate the restaurant. The majority of that report is based off of what the server does or does not do. If they don't suggestive sell, oftentimes if they don't do so for every "category" like drinks, apps, salads, add ons to the entree, dessert, coffee, they are marked lower and the restaurant manager won't be able to meet his minimum secret shopper scores. Which means he won't get his tip. Restaurants I worked at told you upon hiring that if you ever got scored less than 85% on a secret shopper report you would be dismissed for providing bad service.

However, there are the good and bad ways to suggestive sell.

"Good evening, how are you folks doing tonight? Can I get you a Bass Ale or something else to drink? A coke, sure, no problem, I'll be right back with that." Good; it a suggestive sale that moves on..

"Good evening. . . can I get you a Bass Ale or a glass of the Francis Ford Coppolla chardonny or maybe a margarita? Just a coke, are you sure? Come on, it's a night out, live it up a little! How about just a beer?" Bad; no is no and changing minds is not suggestive selling.

I too am a 20% minimum tipper due to years of experience. Bad service gets you 10% and usually a note or a word about why, such as "We asked for a drink refill three times and it never came." Really bad service gets you stiffed and I almost always ask for a manager or a comment card to explain why. It's really rare though. Last time I stiffed someone it was four years ago because they never turned in our order even though we asked four times over 45 minutes when our meals would be coming. I finally asked for a manager, explained what was happening, and said that at this point we didn't even want the meal anymore, we just wanted to pay for our drinks and leave and that due to the incompetence of the server we wouldn't be returning to that establishment. She comped our drinks and gave us gift certificates but we refused them.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I am a 20% minimum tipper because it's easier to do the math. But I'll do the damn math if someone gives me that "Did you want any change back?" line. I gave you two twenties, my bill was $22, you're damn straight I want my change.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I purposely use my servers name when I talk to them. I do this because I see too many customers who completely ignore their server and it bugs me. This is not a machine serving you it is a person and I know that if I came over and refilled your cup or whatever I would really like it if you said thank you. I know it's my job and all and I would do it regardless but it's just nicer when people are polite. I always look my server in the eyes when talking to them and use their name. I'm not trying to be chummy or all buddy buddy but now that people say that maybe it comes off that way. I dunno.

As for the original question, I cannot stand loud music. The kind that is so loud I have to shout so that the person across the table can hear me. The other thing is REALLY long waits to be seated. There is a restaurant here in Sacramento that will not take reservations, will not let you call in to be put on the wait list but is so popular that it is COMMON to wait over 2 hours to be seated. The worst part is that it isn't a surprise to them. They are a chain and the new one built out here has TONS of seating for people waiting. Is waiting chic or something? The food was very good but I told my girlfriend I didn't want to go back. If I wanted to wait two hours just to be seated and then another 20 minutes to eat I could just make the damn food myself.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Hey Travis, what restaurant was that? I've got a couple suspicions (Claim Jumper, Fats, Tahoe Joe's), but I wanna know.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Too many tables in too little space is a bit irritation, as is excessive noise, but my big major complaint is incompetent service.

I worked my way through college waiting tables, and I'll be the first to tell you that no, it's not an easy job. It's not brain surgery either, though, not that you can tell that from my recent experiences.

Be fairly prompt and attentive, give me what I ask for (and nothing else), and be at least civilly polite. You don't have to be in competition for Ms. or Mr. Charm, but don't -- I mean really, DO. NOT. -- be rude to me. I will not penalize a waitperson for bad management or bad cooks or bad luck. I'll cut you slack if you're obviously new, obviously understaffed, or are clearly dealing with another excessively demanding table. I have, in fact, gone to the bar to charge out for cash so that I can tip a waiter when my entire meal has been comped by management. (It wasn't the waiter's fault that the kitchen overcooked my meal last night. Twice. Before running out of what I ordered. The waiter was apologetic, concerned, and attentive. I think he probably would have gone to the store to BUY me dinner if I'd asked. The manager comped both of our dinners, including drinks, and offered us gift certificates, and the waiter got a $25 tip on what would have been about a $40 check.)

However. If I tell you I'm dissatisfied with something (i.e., "I ordered this medium rare, and this is clearly well done"), the correct response is to immediately remove the problem dish with an apology and a promise of correction (how hard is "I'm very sorry. Let me take this, and I'll send a manager over right away"). The correct response is *not* a blank stare followed with "well, whaddya want then?". Don't tell me about the cook's divorce, your lack of responsibility for the kitchen, or your lack of authority to give me free food. I'm your CUSTOMER, not your COUNSELOR. Note: I WILL talk to the manager, and you WILL NOT get a tip. You may, however, get fired. So sorry 'bout that.

Oh, which reminds me. If I ask to speak to a manager, you would be well advised to not hover over the table while I'm talking to said manager. First of all, I may be commending you. If so, you probably already know it. If you think I'm criticizing you, you're quite likely right. If so, I will not be any nicer if you're hovering.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Lynda B, did you read the rest of my post beyond the first line? because I specifically mentioned the exception of when the server is great, it's good to know their name. But you can always ask them.

In terms of waiting on tables, I don't want to give my name, when I'm a server, or get it, when I'm a customer, unless it's necessary. Names, especially first names, have some personal resonance. unless I genuinely want to get to know someone (or need to for business reasons), I'd rather keep it friendly but businesslike.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Kristin - ack, no! I meant a service apron pocket (it would depend on whether you're wearing one)... but one way or another, most waitstaff has somewhere on them to put things, either on a service apron or they're using a tray (I doubt they're just jamming their tips in their pants pocket either. Obviously any silverware you're going to carry around would be wrapped in some way.

All I'm saying is deciding you HAVE to jam two forks on a single serving item because you just 'know' they're going to ask for an extra fork is making excuses... either it happens alot (in which case, plan for it in a way that doesn't make your customer have to be the one that copes) or it doesn't (in which case, those extra steps on the rare occasions when it does happen won't kill you).

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Corrollary to the 'do you want any change' question.

The server who takes two steps from the table and starts counting. Yes, I know we look young and slightly scruffy. You might also be having a hard night or are trying to save steps or are curious. But baby, if you're going to do that in front of me, I'll ask for it back and dock part of the tip.

Usually, though, what annoys me about eating out are the other patrons. The ones that are rude or overloud.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I agree, Nita. I can't tell you how many times I've double-tipped a waitress because of an obnoxious table nearby that clearly wasn't going to tip her enough (or at all).

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I think the servers, in general, are there trying somewhat to do a good job (that's how they get paid, and they aren't there just for fun). Far and away what annoys me most are the other patrons---you can plan around a bad restaurant, but getting bad patrons at an other wise good place, well, the restaurant can't help that. In addition to the already listed peeves, I'll add an opposite: parents who over- discipline the kids. You know, when they yell at the kid, or spank him, or degrade him right there in public. Particularly when the kid hasn't been all that bad---it just turns my stomach.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Wow, I've never eaten at a place where the server sat down at our table to take the order. That would annoy me too.

I don't mind if they squat down next to the table if it's noisy and that's the only way they're gonna be able to hear our orders.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I didn't really have any pet peeves until this happened recently:

I went to a mexican restaurant and asked if the chile rellenos were vegetarian. The waiter thought for a moment, and said yes. I asked if he was sure - the moment of hesitation concerned me. He responded, "No, no, they're vegetarian, I just had to remember what chile rellenos were." Reassured, I ordered the chile rellenos with two sides of mexican potatoes. I knew that the rice and beans served at this restaurant weren't vegetarian, and specifically stated that I did *not* want them. When my food arrived, my plate had a serving of beans. I was annoyed, but it was easy enough to avoid them, so I justignored it. After I had eaten about half of my entree, the waiter came back to ask how the food was. He then asked me, "Was I right? Is your food vegetarian?" I just looked at him, and he continued, "Did I guess right? There isn't any meat in it, is there?"

I was horrified. My biggest irritation is when servers are insensitive to vegetarian customers. I know there is a difference between asking 'Is there meat in this?' and 'Is this item vegetarian?' I also understand that it might be hard to remember what item is made with chicken broth, despite the fact that it appears meatless. But when I specifically state that I want vegetarian food, ask if they are *sure*, I damn well expect my server to be honest with me. If they don't know, that is fine with me. I don't get upset if they don't know every single ingredient in every entree. But if they are unsure, I expect to be told that. And, in any event, I don't want to be told halfway through my meal that they guessed.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Martie: It was Claim Jumper. For the life of me I couldn't remember the name when I was typing that. Thanks for the info on the other two though. I'll stay away. I found out that Outback will let you call in and be put on the waitlist.

A few people have said that they hate when people don't keep their kids in check and now Susan said that she can't stand when parents discipline their kids. You see, it's contradictions like that that make it hard to know what to do if your child acts up in public. If you do nothing people get mad. If you discipline them, people get mad. It's a bit of mixed message, no? That said, I luckily have never had that problem. By the grace of whomever my daughter has never made a scene in a restaurant and straightened up if she was about to with no more then a gentle warning. Unfortunately not all children are that easy to deal with.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I don't think it's a mixed message at all. There are ways to discipline your child in public without humiliating them or the people around you, and if you find yourself having to resort to something more than discreet discipline, then your kid isn't ready to go out to dinner.

No other diner is going to be bothered by a parent telling their child to sit down and behave, or by a parent who quietly informs the child of what their punishment is going to be if they don't stop whatever horrible thing they're doing. Slapping and loud berating, though, makes everyone in the vicinity miserable (and doesn't do much to teach the kid about manners, either).

I have never heard of *any* of these Sacramento area restaurants you guys are talking about. I am way out of the loop, I guess.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Phew, where to even begin? First of all, Jette, I am not a poor little thing, and running back to get you an extra fork will not wear me out unduly. Thanks for your concern, though. I only bring 2 forks with a dessert from the get-go to save time. I have 4 tables in this room, and 6 in the other room (It's 4 a.m. and I'm the only waiter on) There's Morpheus' food in the window ready to be brought out to him (and you know how he can get) Liss' fish tacos are being remade, since they were raw, and I want to get them out while they're hot as well. I'm just leaving you an extra fork so you don't have to wait until I've done these things to get one. Please just ignore the extra fork if it's not needed. Even though I sound cranky, I'm actually the server you want waiting on you. I give the best service I possibly can, I'm very patient with people even when they are rude. If you ask to speak with a manager, I will get you one (even if I have to go out back into the alley to find one) I won't be hovering at your table to see what you have to say to him. Kristin and Beth just came in and I'm taking their order first. I don't push beverages, even though we're supposed to. I know people don't like it. The reason I ask if you need change, even if you've handed me a 20 for a 14 dollar check is that I haven't bothered to look at your total. I'm not trying to trick you. If you see me counting up your bill to see if you've left enough to cover the check, I'm sorry. I usually try and wait until you've just crossed the threshold of the front door to do that. For those of you who haven't seen this site: http://www.stainedapron.com/

Ok. Gotta go.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

dear jette,

quote: "Wow, Mady, remind me never ever to go to the restaurant where you're working."

answer: GOOD!!! because i work there too. your average joe is actually pleasant to serve...however the high and mighty like you turn my stomach.

quote: "Because I think that yes, I should be able to know your name if you're the waitress and no, you don't get to know mine.

answer: why? because you are better than us? because your job at the collection agency entitles you to privlages? pathetic...

quote: "I ask customer service reps their names when I call to resolve something with a company, why not you?

answer: then just show your check to a manager. they will know who waited on you. we are not a voice on the other end of a phone. come on, admit it, it's a power trip you're on.

quote: "It reached the point where I felt those people were too stupid to get a tip."

answer: probably too stupid to eat, pay rent, bills and feed their kids too. your boss probably feels the same about you at times. maybe he shouldn't pay you next week.

quote: "Fortunately that doesn't happen to me anymore."

answer: probably because you are such a snipey person, nobody will eat out with you anymore.

quote: "When something goes wrong, if you start to make a fuss about it, that ruins the dining experience for everyone else at the table."

answer: well then don't make a fuss, just explain to the waiter what you are not satisfied with(see above answer).

quote: "You can suffer through a crappy meal, or you can complain and look like a picky bitch."

answer: probably not much of a stetch. once again, see the last two answers.

quote: "I'm sorry if you have to make an extra trip to the kitchen for the cutesy couples who need to have an extra fork. You poor thing, I'm sure it will wear you out."

answer: NO, it just means that the many other items we are retrieving for OTHER customers(that includes you) will be delayed while we make that special trip.

quote: "I order dessert, you bring an extra fork, and I'm having to fend off my food when friends think this is an invitation to share. I come out of it looking greedy..."

answer: no, you being unwilling to share a bite of food with your friends makes you look greedy. again, no wonder no one eats out with you.

jette, we make tips only. i have not received a penny on a paycheck in six months. it goes to taxes. our whole job and income is about being efficient. it benefits you the customer as you get your food as quickly as possible. it USUALLY works out to benefit us in a larger tip percentage. customers like YOU break this process down. personally if someone like you comes in my section and wrecks the gears that are in motion, i'll cut my losses with you and serve my decent people first, and get around to you afterwards. that way the majority of the people in my section are happy...get it?

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

You know how -I- can get? I'm one of the most patient, understanding guys I know. I am. No, really.

It's my wife that's gonna get you...

And after perusing that little "vent" site... I'm pretty sure she'd get you just on principle. Besides... I don't frequent Denny's.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

morpheus...

bring it!

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Oh, jesus. You make everybody look bad with post like that one, waiter.

Mady:

The reason I ask if you need change, even if you've handed me a 20 for a 14 dollar check is that I haven't bothered to look at your total. I'm not trying to trick you.

Maybe that's why you ask. I've never waited tables but I have lots of friends who have, including one who told me that this was the way to make sure you get a tip. She also told me that she habitually brought change in the largest bills possible, to force a larger tip.

I agree with the people who think the two forks when nobody asked is just rude. I wouldn't cut your tip for that one, but if I had been planning on tipping you extra, I wouldn't after that. Just so you know. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if you asked up front, "Two forks?" That gives the person who ordered dessert the option of saying "no" and asking the other person if they wanted dessert, which somehow seems less rude than doing it after the fork and dessert are already there.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

holy crow..

You know, I used to love working with people like you guys. Because while folks like you were bitching about the work, shortcutting and then complaining about the smaller tips, I just did my job and looked twice as good as I would have if the folks like you weren't so damned pissy - and as a result, people asked specifically to sit in my section and tipped me well.

If it's that hateful to you, there really are easier ways to make a living.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

ok beth,

aside from my inflamatory responses, the point is valid. if EVERYONE(not just some) eating at restaurants treated the staff as people instead of servants and realized that there are others also in need of service, the service would improve across the board. posters like jette don't just get this concept. let me ask you, are you as suspicious of bank tellers when they handle your money? how about the lady at the movie theater? again, economy of motion is commodity on the wait floor. instead of getting change for someone unneccesarily, we could be bringing out hot food to hungry people who haven't eaten yet. why the suspicion of waiters just trying to do their jobs better, just because a few of your friends used to steal peoples money or know people who did?

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

lynda,

i STILL love working with people like you who attract the less patient customers into their sections so i can fill mine with genuinely nice people who are not only a pleasure to wait on but tip TWICE what yours do. thanks a million.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I don't consider putting me on the spot to announce how much of a tip I'm going to give you to be "doing your job better," waiter. I consider it rude, and you should know that a lot of other people do, too, and I'm not the only one who cuts a tip after that. I'm not sure where you work, but I have NEVER had a waiter in a nice restaurant do that. It's only the cheap joints.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Actually I should correct that -- it's not the cheap places, it's the annoying chain restaurants. That's where it happens.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

After you get your second job, you'll find out that there isn't a job in existance where everyone you come across treats you as well as you feel you deserve, and in the big bad world of grownups, it's regarded as pretty lame to use that as an excuse to provide crappy labor.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Wait, you mean that when those guys call from prison and call me a bitch and slam down the phone, I *don't* get to do a lousy job on their appeals? Shit. I've been doing this all wrong.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

(Note that I'm not trying to diminish the unique position of waitstaff. No one docks my pay when I have a bad day, or -- worse -- when someone else in the office has a bad day and I have no control over it. But even if they DID dock my pay, I don't think I'd be justified in spitting on their food.)

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

ok...ladies,

beth...well...you hit the nail on the head on that one...i do work in a cheap joint :). so sue me...we do how we do. i don't want to go back to working in the "nice joints". i'm through with that.

and lynda,

yes i do have a second job...it's not quite steady enough to pay the bills yet...but it soon will be. and on this job i get treated with a generous amount of respect. it's intellectually challenging and creatively satisfying. you see that's why i still wait tables. i have held out for such a second job. sorry that you didn't. but don't take that out on me.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

spitting in food? come on beth, i've been talking about treating each other in a human matter. where do you the spitting? i have never done or even heard of anyone i know doing such a thing.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

No, Beth, YOU get to... numerous judges have said that the right to counsel does not mean a right to competent counsel.

So you're fine if you mess with your clients for being rude - just don't spit on them!

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Waiter, I was referring to the link Mady posted above. stainedapron.com, I think. The story of the month is a gleeful account by a waiter who got even with some non-tippers by shoving their dinner mints up his ass. Spitting is the least of the revenge tactics described on that site.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

My only comment on this thread is that my husband and I eat out infrequently (he really does *love* to cook!). If we ever eat out for fun, it's at this one small, family run Italian restaurant. Always on a Friday or Saturday, later in the afternoon (no later than 4:30), so we can get Lise, a sweetheart of a waitress. (I asked her name so I could commend her to her manager--who's her uncle!) She completely bowled us over with her professional attitude with just the right touch of warmth. I am ecstatic that not alot of people in the area seems interested in eating there at that time--we're guaranteed a table that she serves. Depending on our order, she gets anywhere between 35%-50% tip. This girl makes me almost sorry we don't eat there more often.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I really react hard when I feel like I'm being manipulated. Suggestive selling in any but the most subtle of ways will sour my mood quickly. And asking me if I want change, or bringing my change in bills intended to make sure I leave a larger tip, is a good way to get no tip at all and no repeat business as well.

It may be unfair, and I know most wait staff people are working too hard for too little money. But I don't like being insulted. I tip generously, commensurate with the quality of service (and taking into account the busy-ness of the place ... if the server isn't attentive or I have to wait a long time for something, but it's because the place is packed and short-staffed and my server is running full-tilt trying to handle a lot of busy tables, I'll usually tip well over the 15 percent level. Just don't make me feel like you think you have to trick me into it.)

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Michael, that's why I usually ask if you'd rather have a 5 or 5 ones in change. It's only when I'm exceedingly busy that I just ask "Do you need change?" I know that no one is going to be tricked into leaving me 5 dollars if that is the only change I give them. Beth, I certainly don't endorse the behavior that's written about on the Stained Apron, but as a waiter I find a lot of it pretty funny. Horrifying, yet funny.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I always tip the waitstaff 20-25%. Of course, I'm spoiled by the service in NY restaurants. I always wonder how NY waitstaff can be so uniformly excellent, even in the cheap little diners and delis.

Anyway, I think y'all are being big, fat sourpusses if you withhold or reduce the tip just because someone asks if you want change or brings you two forks. I agree those are minor faux pas, but much less important than getting what you ordered and a refill of water. I won't opine on coke-pushing and over-familiar staff because it's not a problem I have.

Oh, wait. Once I was in Hamilton, Ohio and went to the only restaurant I could find -- a Texas Steakhouse, I think. The waitress rolled a sheet of butcher paper onto my table, pulled a caryon out of her apron, sat down opposite me and wrote her name ("Candi") upside down so I could see it. Yup, she dotted the "i" with a big, loopy heart. I didn't know how to react, so I said, "Hi Candy, my name is Tom." She giggled like we were on a date. I bet she was sixteen or something.

Anyway, so I have had the over-familiar service experience. And I can't claim sainthood for tipping Candi 20% because hey, it was on the client. What was my point again? Oh yes, I am stuck here waiting for the car service. My life sucks. Aleline out.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Then, before any other customers left, a couple came in and wham! they were led upstairs.

You know what? I *HATE* that. And as much as people may *think* it's good business sense (hey, bigger order, they'll tip more), it really isn't.
I like to dine alone and I like to leave generous (sometimes 50 percent or more) tips. But if you make me stand around and wait while all the people who are going to split a nachos and have a couple cokes get seated, I WILL be cranky, even if I don't blame it on the waitstaff (assuming my waiter is not the person deciding I can sit down).
And, in fact, I was at a wrestling pay-per-view at HOOTERS (yeah, I know, whole nother argument, let's not go there), where the service is often surprisingly good, and they were taking names, there was a line, we waited 20 minutes for OUR TURN, and then they suddenly started jumping everyone who had less than 4 people (there were three of us) and was willing to share tables with complete strangers ahead of the rest of us. What the heck is up with that??? So we said, "No, we'll wait for our OWN table, thanks." Then we got seated where we couldn't see the f'n televisions (what good is that at a pay-per-view). But the waitress who led us to the table was obviously disturbed by the shitty service we had thus far been provided, and said "if you don't mind waiting about 2 more minutes, I'll fix this". We got a great table in front of a big screen TV and she got a really good "Pre-tip" (on the spot, not dependent on later service). If you're a waiter, and your patrons don't like their table, and you can make it better, try. They might surprise you.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Jeremy, who pays more attention to how much I tip than I do, informs me that the only time I reduce the tip for the "would you like change?" question is when they've been very obvious about counting the money first and I've paid a $25 bill with two twenties. He's probably right. I'm not actually as grumpy as I make myself out to be.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

I waited tables and tended bar for ten years. As a waitress, that "giving the change back in big bills for a bigger tip" can backfire and leave you with a very small one. Which is why I rarely did it.

And you might like to believe that people aren't doing bad things to your food but don't count on it. The big, friendly chain restaurant I worked in was spotless and the line was visible to the entire dining room. The food was always safe. The airport coffee shop I worked in (Spokane, if you must know) had a clsoed kitchen and the customers weren't so lucky. They employed a cook who enjoyed throwing cockroaches on the grill whenever asked and a waitstaff that frequently retrieved dropped toast, sausages, etc. from the floor when dropped so that they wouldn't get screamed at by passengers who were already late for their flights. It happens.

As a customer, I'm pretty tolerant. I was a good waitress and a good bartender and I expect the same from others but that doesn't mean I get it. I do get pissed, though, when the server brings the charge slip and scurries off without leaving me a pen to sign it with. And I hate being lied to. If you dropped my food, forgot to ring in the appetizer, gave it to the wrong table... TELL ME. Don't spend 15 minutes trying to avoid eye contact with me or pretend you don't know what's taking so long. Smile, bring me more bread, refill my drink... if it's REALLY bad, send the manager with an offer of free desert, whatever... but tell me what happened and expect that I'm an adult that can handle it.

Diana

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Oh, yeah, that "disappearing at the end" thing. I'm pretty tolerant of most things, particularly if the place is busy. But when I'm all finished and ready to go, I hate to have to work to catch the server's eye to ask for the bill, and then wait forever for them to come back with the credit card slip. If I'm finished with all the food and drink, it's a pretty good guess that I'm ready to leave. And annoying the bill-payer right before they are tallying up the tip is a pretty good way to have me round down instead of up.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

the only time I reduce the tip for the "would you like change?" question is when they've been very obvious about counting the money first and I've paid a $25 bill with two twenties.

Upon further reflection, I realize that I don't always object to this either. If the service was good, if the server was attentive and friendly without being intrusive, if the place is busy and the server frantic, etc., I'll usually tip whatever I would have anyway.

It's all subjective.



-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Beth, they're yuppie chain joints out in the suburbs. Not worth the trouble at all.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

I agree with most of the patron-voiced concerns here (rude servers, manipulating the customer, etc.) but I honestly don't get some of you getting worked up over "bringing two forks." I don't care if my dessert comes with two forks or four or an entire box set of silverware. What kind of people do you go out with? I frequently find myself saying, "Hey, you gotta try this." If it's really good and I'm feeling "greedy," I'll say, "Sorry, get your own." With close friends both are OK.

Some restaurants already have a full set of forks on the table. Should you go around first and confiscate dessert forks to protect your cheesecake from friends?

There are few offenses that would make me reduce the 20% tip, and the "two forks thing" doesn't belong on the list. Until yesterday I couldn't imagine it being on anyone's list. Live and learn, I guess.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Is 20% really the average minimum now? I guess I'm behind the times, and have a lot of wait staff spitting in my food for leaving 15% most of the time.

I swear Dear Abby or my mother taught me 15%. And tipping by percentages should account for inflation even when prices rise.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Let's not get it too blown out of proportion. The question was raised about what ruins a dining out experience, and that was among the answers given, and it's a peeve shared by a few people. No movement to ban extra forks is happening - just people answering a question. Most indicating that it's something they don't like, not that they'd reduce a tip in response.

In response, a couple servers have replied to that peeve (and in waiter's case every single peeve any customer might possibly ever have) in a really snotty manner.

As far as tippage goes, I tip rounding up from 20% as my standard. If I have to greatly inconvenience the server (ie, my kids are with me, or I'm asking for something that is going to cause the server extra work beyond the norm)it goes up.

The percentage I tip does not go down for noise, bad food, or making mistakes that the person is aware of and correcting. My tip percentage goes down for exactly one thing - shitty attitude. That includes repeated 'forgetting' I'm there, whining about co-workers, or (I do hope the young servers with the attitudes here are listening), greeting a request as though I were your mom telling you to clean your room when your friends waiting at the door.

In terms of a fork, it doesn't matter if it's really a significant problem - it's a problem that is easily fixable and shouldn't garner the snotrag response it got from the servers who responded to Dave's bringing it up. That was a nice tidbit of knowledge about how to easily please a customer that they could have used instead of griping about it.

I don't get how, if they go off like that over something that trivial, they're ever going to get a decent hearing when they have a real problem with a customer.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

or to. or two. or 2. (it's 6am, fuzzy thinking)

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

I'm much too grumpy without my coffee and shouldn't post this...

I think that all the attitudinal wait persons that have posted here should open up their own restaurant and call it "Self-Entitlement."

You could hire your "own kind"... that is, other waiters that bitch and moan about not making a living wage on their 20-32 hour work week but don't change industries. You could just keep a vat of human bile in the kitchen to saute anyone's (everyone?) food in. And -you- could throw out customers who hadn't read the ettiquette 101 on stainedaron.com. Your's could be the first non-service industry based restaurant!

Oh, wait... could you -afford- the capital to go into business for yourself? I mean, with such self-righteousness being thrown around, surely you've -done- something for yourself other than tie on an apron after highschool, right? Dammit, I keep forgetting that this is capitalism at its finest: the promise of the American Dream.... and while you're dreaming, why not make people treat you like the person of such (potential) greatness that you are? I mean, that's what -you- deserve! You're just getting your just deservance of respect on credit, right?!

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Oh, let's not bash all waitstaff because some people have a bad attitude. I wouldn't dare be snotty about waiting tables -- although I agree with the poster and former waitress above who said it's not rocket science, most of us aren't doing rocket science at our jobs, either. And waiting tables well, with grace and good humor, is a skill that I don't personally have and probably couldn't acquire, because I hate people and have a mind like a sieve. I don't think it's an easy job and I admire anyone who can do it well.

But. Part of doing it well includes being gracious and keeping your cool and not making your customers feel like crap. Honestly, that's part of what makes you good at your job. If you can't do that, then you're a lousy waiter, no matter how quickly you bring me my drink. And don't whine about that part, either, because yours isn't the only profession where a particular attitude is required. In fact, I can't think of many jobs where you don't have to eat a certain amount of shit now and then.

One thing I have observed, not just about waitstaff but about office workers, etc., is that there is often a fundamental difference in attitude depending on why you are doing this particular job. I've seen the worst attitudes, in general, among students working jobs they felt were beneath them, whether that job is as a receptionist or a file clerk or a waiter. People who do those same jobs because they like them, because those jobs are what's available to them, or because they're good at them tend to treat their jobs and their customers/clients with more respect. It shows.

That's why, Morpheus, I take exception to your comments about 'tying on an apron' after high school. Give me a career waiter over a college student any day.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

I think that Beth hit the nail on the head there. When you're my waiter, the fact is that you work *for me* just as much as you work for the people who send money to the IRS on your bahalf. I am paying you, and I expect to be treated with at least the respect that implies.

If all I wanted was to get my food and get it fast, then I'd go for...fast food, or maybe the local cheap buffet joint. The reality is, though, that even though the waiter works for tips, I'm paying $15 or $18 or more for my dinner (rather than cooking it myself for under $5) largely for the service. I am paying that extra money to have my food all hot at the same time, my glass filled consistently, and someone who will grab me a clean fork or another napkin or some fresh-ground pepper without me needing to fuss over it.

Yeah, it's a crappy system, since I'm paying FOR good service even before I add on my usual 20%+ tip, but them's the breaks. Good waitstaff understands that, no matter what level of restaurant I'm at (and I've gotten probably the best service ever at very inexpensive family-owned restaurants, much moreso than overpriced steakhouses or pasta joints).

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

The best service is at diners, as long as you stick with the ones where they don't hire their staff based on their looks. Actually that's pretty much true everywhere: if every server is young and attractive, don't count on good service, because that's not the hiring criteria. A diner staffed by middle aged women? You will never see better service. Older male waiters at fancy restaurants are a close second, but sometimes they're snotty.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

I hate to have to do it, but Morpheus, I am issuing you a ticket to Customer School.

People get bitter in the service industry because bad customers teach them to be bitter in the service industry. I was a bartender in order to put myself thru school, and nobody gives the bartender much crap, because we hold the keys to your next drink, but over the years I saw men spit on waitresses, dine and dash, several waitresses slapped by patrons, more ass grabbing and tit pinching than I ever thought possible, and more verbal abuse than you could ever believe. I have seen grown men throw plates across the restaurant because they didn't like the food, women hand their baby to their server and ask for a diaper change, women who 'sent' bottles of wine back by picking them up by the neck and smashing them on the floor, children who defaced a Picasso painting with their knives under the encouragement of their parents, customers who barged into the kitchen with their plate in their hand and demanded to 'teach the chef how to cook a steak' and men pee under their table rather than stroll over to the men's room.

I worked in fine dining, french service places, and private clubs, because I thought people would be better behaved. Ha!

People walk into restaurants and want to be Mrs. Vanderbilt, giving a luncheon for her good friends Mrs. Whitney and Mrs. Paine, while their stable of liveried servants waits hand and foot on them, and get ugly when the waitresses at Dennys don't want to play along. They like the power of having a table of 10 send the waitress back to the bar for their drinks one at a time. A lot of people seem to hate the idea that the server is serving *other people* at the same time.

You get the level of service that you pay for. If you want a really good waitress and fabulous service, if that means something in the overall enjoyment of your experience in dining, then you have to go to a better restaurant. You will probably never get a crappy waiter at Spago. But you can't go to Olive Garden and expect the level of service you would get at Spago, any more than you can go to a K-Mart and get the same kind of service you would get at Tiffany.

I am not bitter from my years in food service. I think of it as an extended psych. course.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

I ought to be able to go anywhere, though, and expect to be treated politely. Just because I'm a public defender (well, sort of) doesn't mean I get to treat my clients with no respect. I don't kiss their asses the way I would if I were a corporate lawyer and they were paying me big bucks, but I don't get to treat them like shit because they're poor, either.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Of course, you should be treated politely. And there are crappy waiters out there that need a lesson or two in this as well. But at the same time, a lot of the complaints here have to do with wanting exquistite service in a chain restaurant, and being mad at the server instead of the restaurant, when that doesn't happen.

That "Hello my name is Kristin, and I am your new best friend," crap - that includes the waiter squatting down at the table in front of you - that is what happens at chain restaurants, because Chain restaurants require it of their servers. I hate it too, which is why I don't eat at them, because I know that those people are being trained to do that. I know that they have to do it. I know that they probably hate it as much as I do. They have to be that annoying - it is their job, it is required of them by their manager - they have to wear the flair and be obnoxious, because that is what their employer wants of them, in a sick effort to 'brand' their store.

Same with the suggestive selling - I know lots of places that require the 3 step rule - offer, features, and benefits - "Would you like a beer? We have Bass on tap, and it is a fresh keg. It makes your penis bigger!" I feel sorry for servers that have to jump thru those kinds of hoops at every table, but I know if they don't, they might lose their jobs.

My point? I think I have one. When you hate what the waiter is doing, they probably hate it, too, but are doing what their employer requires of them. If you eat at a chain, expect a chain level of service. If you eat at Spago, expect a Spago level of service.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

If most of what you have available to you are chains and you want more selection in your dining: let the chain know what you dislike instead of focussing on the service staff.

For example:

Dear Restaurant Manager,

I would have brought my group of 12 to dine at Olive Garden, because the variety, familarity, and affordability would have been pleasurable to our group.

However, I find many of the practices that you require of your servers to be incorrigibly obnoxious. For example, I hate it that they sit at my table to take our order, insist on pressing beverage items in which our party has no interest, and that the poor souls are required to wear a bunch of obnoxious buttons and stickers as a part of the uniform.

It's my understanding that these practices are required by you, the wait staff's employer. Therefore, until you discontinue these practices, I'll have to rely upon at-home parties, catering, and (insert name of one non-chain restaurant in town) for my entertaining and dining out business.

Incidentally, that group of 12 I mentioned? We spend (insert desirable sum of money here) at our last outing. Over the course of a year my family spends (insert another sum) on dining out an entertainment. Too bad we just couldn't give you that business.

Sincerely, Me.

cc: mailing address of chain as corporation

Withholding your business doesn't do squat if they don't know why you're withholding it.

Tips? If you think someone deserves a really nice tip, scribble a note to a manager saying how much you were pleased and why.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Except that, you know, Spago kind of sucks nowadays. But other than that, exactly, Kristin.

Let me ask this: how fair is it to "penalize" a server by withholding what is, after all, a portion of their salary? It's part of the understanding of the whole restaurant culture, how a restaurant works, very basically. When you patronize a restaurant, you walk in with the understanding that you, as the customer, are the primary source of the waitstaff's salary.

So really, what right does a customer have to judge and withold, but for only the really grossest of errors? I can see not tipping over the standard 15 - 20 percent because you weren't impressed, but if your waiter provided the basic service the customer relationship entails as part of the restaurant structure, you pay them what they deserve as the person fulfilling that fundamental requirements of the position of “waiter.”

Perhaps this is just plain naïve of me, perhaps this will undermine the entire restaurant industry and the concept behind the tipping pay structure (which seems to be: you're working for my money, trained monkey, so you better be perfect!) and may lead to lazy waiters across the country blowing their noses in their aprons and thinking “fuck the customer, I get my three bucks no matter what!” but I cannot shake the feeling that the whole “penalizing” idea is simply petty and revengish.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

I agree completely, Jen, that it's not fair that servers get their pay docked for minor fuckups, when none of the rest of us do.

And I know that 20 percent is considered the norm in most places. I'm not sure when or how that happened, since last I heard Miss Manners was still saying 15 percent and I believe the feds still only tax on 8 percent. For me, 20 percent is the norm. (I tip slightly higher in cheap establishments, because I don't see what the price of the food has to do with how hard my server is working.) But I will go down to 15 percent for a waiter who annoys the crap out of me, and I don't particularly feel like I'm docking anyone's pay when I do that. With all due respect, I'm pretty sure it was waiters who decided that 20 percent was the new norm, and I'm fine with that, but I better have NO complaints about the service. (And to clarify, I mean the part of the service that is the waiter's concern, not the quality of the food or the crying baby or the understaffed restaurant.)

I have gone as low as ten percent, but that was for this sort of thing: your waiter takes your drink order, and then sees a group of his frat buddies over in the corner, and proceeds to hang out with them for the next twenty minutes until you finally grab a manager and ask if you could please, for the love of God, get your damn food now because you're about to walk out, and then the waiter is forcibly returned to your table and proceeds to act like a sullen thirteen year old for the rest of the night. That, obviously, happens mostly in college towns and vacation areas, and I assume the rest of the wait staff hates that guy as much as I do.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

And by the way, just so you don't think I'm being a snob, all of the waiters like the one I described in the above post? They eventually go to law school.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Jen, I agree that the tip is, in fact, the server's paycheck, and I treat it accordingly. We've discussed the problem of the tipping paradigm before somewhere, and it does have some fundamental problems (not least of which is that all too many people don't seem to understand how it works).

That said, it's why we have a pretty firm system of tipping in our house. I go in the door expecting to give you a 20% tip. To get that, you need to be relatively timely, consistently polite, and give me what I've asked for, to the best of your ability. It's a pretty lenient standard, really - this is B or C service.

If you huff and sigh at being asked for a special preparation, neglect to fill my glass until I've had to ask (often more than once), or disappear completely once the food is on my table, you'll probably get 15% or so. You haven't really ticked me off too much, but you didn't give me good service, either. It's a C-, probably.

If you really tick me off (swear at me, throw me major attitude, or do something really stupid) I will leave you either nothing or, sometimes, 25 cents, and I will *always* talk to a manager if I'm stiffing the server. This is 'F' service, and if you worked for me, you'd get a written reprimand.

On the other side, if you go out of your way to help me (run back and forth to the kitchen to ask about ingredients, for example), if you're way ahead of the game (bringing a refill before I've even considered one), or otherwise impress me with 'A' service, you'll get closer to 25% (usually 20% rounded up to the next $5) and sometimes more. I will also make sure I have your name, and I will ask for you the next time I'm in.

There's a waitress at one restaurant here who gets about a $15 tip almost weekly from the two of us (on what's usually about a $25-30 check) because she is always unfailingly cheerful and helpful - she doesn't blink twice at my special (allergy-related) requests, offers suggestions when there's something new, brings us a pitcher if she sees us downing glasses of water quickly, etc. She has consistently gone out of her way to make sure we're happy, and we reward her for it. (Ironically, she's also probably 22 and cute as a button, so there goes that theory.) All of our friends and family know to ask for her, and they all tip her very well, too. I suspect that over the last year or two, being good to us has paid off pretty well for her!

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

In the paper today, some of the math questions for students were presented as examples (had to do with national standards, and comparisons between Asians, Hispanics, etc, -- now I forget the main intent of the article, because I suddenly noticed one of test questions concerned calculating restaurant tabs using 15% of the bill.)

I didn't think it was my imagination.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Liss, I didn't mean that attractive waiters are bad waiters. I meant that places that hire only attractive waiters tend to offer rotten service.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Yeah, the restaurant I worked at was -horrible-!

Ahem.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001