I'm just reviving our old etiquette advice section from Squishy. Feel free to ask us anything from how to know which fork to use to how to address the Pope.

But don't expect wussy 'modernized' etiquette leniency- we don't play that. We are two girls who wish they made Emily Post for the Palm Pilot, after all. (Okay, so Hannah doesn't have a Palm Pilot, but if they made a Palm Emily Post, I would buy one. Honest.)

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Answers

As best I can tell, they don't make an ettiquette reference for handhelds at all. While we're waiting, though, I did find these:

Excuse Generator: http://www.chr istopherschlembach.com/because.htm
Advice from Yoda: http://users.ev1.n et/~bantha/palm/index.html
Psychotherapist: http://www.ddhsoftware.com/software.html?view=free

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Okay, ladies, this one is a genuine ethical dilemma.

To wit: my father worked at a well-known corporation for about 15 years and came to know many of the people who now make (or made) up the corporation's top brass. He left in 1995, but still keeps in touch with some of his former co-workers, on a professional and personal level.

Well Known Corp. recently made some minor news, and I want to write a story on it for RCW.com. WriterDad would be able to tell me if I was way off base in the article. But I know it would make him uncomfortable, and he'd probably discourage me from writing it.

Should I (a) not write it? (b) write it and not tell him about it? (c) ask someone else to write it? (As it stands, I'm leaning towards (c) right now.)

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

I should add (d) explain this to your boss, which I also chose.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Well, you definitely owe your father a heads-up. Tell him that you are interested in writing an article about this company, and tell him why. Explain that you don't want to make him uncomfortable, and would hand it off to someone else if he felt better about that, but that the article was going to be written anyway. Odds are, he'll say that he knows you will only write the truth, and to go ahead.

And then- make sure it's fair, and honest (duh), and give him a chance to look at it first. If something in it is really going to cause difficulty for him, it's best to give him fair warning.

Also, there may be some sort of journalistic ethics involved, too, but I know nothing about that.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2001

Well, I asked my boss, and he doesn't think it'll be a problem. We'll see what happens.

New question: our office manager in London apparently lost her brother in a motorbike accident yesterday. The office is sending flowers and passing around a card: should I go ahead and send her a separate personal card? And if so, what in God's name should I say?

At least with my grandfather, he was almost 81 and had been sick for a while; we were somewhat prepared. I can't imagine this.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

WG, the article won't be bylined, will it?

-- Anonymous, August 04, 2001

T catches on quickly. Nope, no byline for me.

My boss said he didn't think it would be a problem, and the Business section still isn't planning on running anything, so I guess I ought to quit posting and get to work.

-- Anonymous, August 06, 2001

A personal card is always okay. In times of bereavement, there really is nothing to say- so just say how sorry you are, and you know there is nothing you can say, but your thoughts are with them. It doesn't have to be long or pretty, just sincere.

-- Anonymous, August 06, 2001

There's nothing you can say that's "the right thing".

"I know how you feel" always rings false, and sucks as much as "I can't imagine what you must be feeling."

In sympathy cards where I don't know the deceased or am not that close to the bereaved, I try to work in a phrase that basically says "I hope the happy memories that you shared will bring some comfort to you," and also "please call on me if you need anything."

If I know the bereaved well, I'm going over to his / her house with my chicken and wild rice casserole, so the card doesn't matter.

-- Anonymous, August 06, 2001

Also, if you knew the deceased, a favorite memory is often a nice thing to add. If you didn't know the deceased, a story you remember being told about the deceased, or just a "I know from how you always spoke of your brother how close you were" is also nice to mention.

-- Anonymous, August 06, 2001

This is one I've always wondered about, though it hasn't officially happened yet, but let's face it, it probably will: if you're single, boyfriendless, and even dating-somebody-less, and you get an invite to a wedding that has your name "and guest" on it, are you obligated to bring a guest so as not to mess up the bride's Ark-like seating arrangements, or is it at all acceptable to decline the guest invite?

-- Anonymous, October 11, 2001

Two things:

My sister-in-law is preggers. My husband thinks we (translate: I) should throw her a shower. I am not close to her and don't want to throw her a shower. I was standing right there when she said "I have no women friends to throw me a shower." So even she acknowledges we're not buddies. Do I have to put aside my petty bitchiness 'cause nobody in his family gave me a baby shower when I was pregnant and throw her one?

Dilemma two:

My birthday's coming up, it's a milestone and I'm going to have a party. I'm not planning on inviting anyone at work because I want to keep it around 10 people and didn't want to insult anyone. Is that a good strategy? One of our coworkers was married last year and didn't invite anyone and we were a little miffed. I think I'm going to "miff" people either way. And do I have to invite the brother and sister-in-law? I think I do.

-- Anonymous, October 12, 2001

How confident is too confident in a cover letter for a job?

I want to say, "It'd be a big mistake if you didn't hire me." But obviously, I can't say that. So, I say things like, "I think I am a very good fit for this job," which seems a little weak.

So how can I express how much I want the job, or how much I think I'm perfect for the job, without sounding arrogant?

-- Anonymous, October 12, 2001

Wow! A veritable smorgasbord of etiquette issues. I can't scroll to remember who asked what, but I think these were the order of the last few questions:

At the wedding: Yes, you CAN go alone. The bride's seating arrangement will not be firm until after the RSVP date, and there will be plenty of "singles" to put together to round out table numbers. Don't take a date, feel confident about it - and pick yourself up a hot single usher!

The sister-in-law: it sounds like she does in fact want you to throw her a shower. I can't see a way to get out of it and still keep the hubby happy.

The birthday party: if work friends don't find out, they can't be miffed. But, considering the wedding situation you mentioned of the other co-worker, expect some miffing if people do find out. The way out: don't use the term "party" - refer to it as a "family birthday dinner." And yes, you probably have to invite your sister-in-law and brother.

The cover letter: there are those who probably think I shouldn't offer getting-a-job advice since I don't have one, but I do lots of employment consulting - writing resumes, cover letters, interview coaching, etc. (those who can't, teach - I guess).

And, I believe that confidence in a cover letter is GREAT - as long as you have the skills to back it up, and also you don't want to sell yourself as being overqualified. To gently convey that you are stellar, and you know it, says three things:
1) you have the skills they want,
2) you have confidence, which can also indicate that you have initiative and a quick learning curve, and
3) that you are so great that other companies probably want you badly too.

Of course this depends on the position you are applying for and other factors, but I really like the following statement as a solid closing sentence:

"I feel confident that what XYZ Co. is seeking and what I have to offer are a great match; I would love to visit with you in person to discuss that."

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Hooknose.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

what you say, An Bei? You make fun of me for adwice?

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

I make fun of you 'cause I no see title of thread say "Pineapple Advice Corner." Hahaaaaah!

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

no, titre of tread say "T + Other Hannah" and they no answer!

I just herping. You mean mean girl.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Wah! So much fighting! It like Cultural Revolution in here, only we much prettier than Madame Mao!

PG, you are right. I am neglectful of this thread. In fact, thank you for answering. I meant to say that earlier.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

I just herping. You mean mean girl.

I just making joke! Ha ha, jokey-laugh-haha!

That shirt no make you look fat. Make you look pretty.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Wah! So much fighting! It like Cultural Revolution in here, only we much prettier than Madame Mao!

A terrapin was prettier than Madame Mao.

Anyway, we haven't had enough numbers for it to be a true Cultural Revolution. You need your Three Nos, your Four Methods of True Proletarian Living, and your Five Rules of Dress ("A true revolutionary wears either a Burberry coat or a Burberry scarf, but not both").

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Oh, WG! You too! Must everyone commment on the Terp mascot?

Also, we need a lot of treatises and catchy slogans if we're really going to have a Cultural Revolution, don't we?

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Uh, I think "Better Than a Barrel of Algebra" is pretty damn catchy, Mr. Mike.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

I stand corrected.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Treatises, though - that's a different story.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Mike, you forget my long Duke history. What else can I do? It's Midnight Madness day.

As for catchy slogans, I think most CR slogans were catchier in the original Mandarin. What we really need is a purge.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Ah, as one who has just finished "Making Madame Mao" by Anchee Min, I am quite quarified to play Cultural Revolution.

T, I wasn't harping on yall for abandoning the Etiquette thread. I was picking on AB because she so mean!,
and also, quite drunken and laughing like a loon when I drunk- dialed her at J-Thong.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

What did you think of it, PG? That book's on my 'to-be-read" stack on my nightstand.

Will the Cultural Revolution be televised?

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Oh! I read that book, too! Well, almost all of it - I have, like, 10 pages left that I've been meaning to read for three months. I liked it, though. Although, if you only read one book about China, read Waiting by Ha Jin. Such a good story.

PG, you know I love you, girl.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

If you really really want Chinese history, the place to go is either The Search for Modern China or the Rod MacFarquhar anthology whose title escapes me at the moment. There are a number of Cultural Revolution memories available -- Nien Cheng's Life and Death in Shanghai is one of the most highly regarded, if I'm remembering correctly. Waiting is definitely a good book but it's not specifically about the CR.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Well, I think that T's unintentional (or maybe intentional) implication that it's a slow read is a good one. As a non-fiction, I thought that Min handled the difficulty of reconciling Madame Mao's "memoirs" with recorded facts and history as well as possible. I enjoyed it though, because for me it was a good entree into the Cultural Revolution, about which I knew very little but now am curious enough to begin studying.

As a character study I found the evolution of Madame Mao as a woman very interesting, and would love to see such a bio of any of the prominent political wives of the US.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Will the Cultural Revolution be televised?

Dude, I can't believe nobody gave you props for that. Viva le Gil- Scott Heron!

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Damn it, there's some famous quotation from Mao about letting the youth basically run roughshod at the beginning of the Cultural Revolution, and I can't. remember. it. This is going to drive me nuts.

He did say, "Revolution is not a dinner party," which gets us ever so slightly back to on topic.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Hee, y'all.

And since no one has said so yet, Pineapple is the authority to defer to when Naked Hannah and T are neglecting the thread. She's got the Emily Post Seal of Approval and everything.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

Well, I thought Pineapple did very well!

Anyway, to whomever wants to answer, here's a few other questions. (The first of which came up on Hissyfit, but the general atmosphere in that thread has gotten pretty scary so I'm not asking there.)

If someone died, are you obligated (I don't mean "as a nice gesture if you want to", I mean people will be very pissed at you if you don't) to either send flowers or donate to a memorial fund? Not that I've been to a funeral since the fifth grade, but I thought that stuff was optional instead of mandatory. Hell, I thought just bringing over food instead would be okay.

Another one that someone asked today: is it tacky to invite someone to a wedding/shower/other event that people would register for and then send the list of gifts along with the invitation?

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

thanks, Hannah! I promise I'm not trying to take over on the etiquette thread. I just happen to be a nazi about this stuff so I love adding my $.02. I swear that in HS when people asked what I wanted to be when I grew up I said, "Chief Protocol Advisor to the White House. Or the Governor of Texas."

On the funeral offering - my rule of thumb is that flowers or a spray or wreath or donation is only required (i.e. you will be discussed) if you are a member of the not-immediate family, or if the person was a very important business or social contact in some way. Otherwise, I agree that a personal gesture of condolence (like taking over food) is absolutely fine.

And... here's something else I'm a nazi about... ever including the place that a bride is registered with an invitation to anything is the epitome of tacky. And if I ever received a list of the actual gifts on the registry, well, I'd probably have a heart attack. Then I'd send copies to Judith and Letitia to look at so they could boggle with me.

The idea is that these parties and especially the wedding are not for blatant gift trolling. If invited to an event, one should be close enough to one of the hostesses that one could pick up the phone and ask her for a gift suggestion or a registry location in person.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2001

EXACTLY! Never, ever put where the bride is registered in an invitation. Just ask the shower hostess. If I were to receive a shower invitation that said, "Check out our registry on theknot.com" or whatever, I would really have to restrain myself from saying something to the hostess.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

T, I love you.

I love you for this thread and also because you know where Irian Jaya is. You have to know that if I hosted a shower for you, I would never mention a registry, my chicken salad would be whiter than a Knights of Columbus meeting, and that I would save all your ribbons to be carefully crafted into the rehearsal bouquets, and not some tacky hat made out of a paper plate.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

Okay, I can never keep the introdution rules straight.

You ask the A person to meet the B person, but you introduce the B person TO the A person, right?

Like, Dad, I'd like you to meet Boyfriend. Or, Boyfriend I'd like to introduce you to my father, Dad.

Right??

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

I'm pretty sure that's how it goes. Sort of like "bring" versus "take."

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

okay, I had the hugest longest introduction thing typed out, then I got my own self so confused it had to be abandoned. Just read this.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

Right. So A meets B, but B is introduced TO A.

A being more prominant, older or woman.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

This happened in the MOC's office. I was mortified. Now, granted, you almost expect office parties and showers to break all the rules and be at least slightly tacky, but they handed out registry lists for a baby shower.

Y'all.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

Oops! I meant to quote PG's And if I ever received a list of the actual gifts on the registry, well, I'd probably have a heart attack.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

HB - one New Orleans party will be hosted by my Irish kin. A smaller tea will be hosted by my mother's cousins on Mimi's side.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

The fact that technically the sister-in-law is family is the perfect way for Melissa to try to get out of the shower. I heart Kristin.

Etiquette nazis unite!

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

PG, if you could develop a Palm Emily Post, your job worries would be OVAH.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

Oh yeah, you ONLY count your inlaws as family when it means you get OUT of doing something for them. Then you count them as 'not family' the moment something fun comes up for family only.

Then you make sure they never get internet access and find your website. I forgot that last part.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

Okay, this is not absolutely on topic, but...

My friend and I had a drunken idea once in college that we really wanted to enact, only the url www.FashionCitation.com was already taken. Can I tell you... we wanted to print up little booklets of tickets, with areas for tacky dress, tacky behavior, tack in general, and room for comments (by us, naturellement) and hand them out - especially in downtown Austin on weekends. The website was to be for reporting offenders, with one of us handing out the citation and the other snapping a digital photo (which we could then black-box-censor a la Glamour's "Dos and Donts", and post along with the citation number). It was much fun to talk about after having been negligently overserved as we were.

Now, I beat down my inner snob on a daily basis. I love people, I'm all about Up With People!, and believe that everyone is special in their own way. But, damn...

I can only imagine sitting and having (lots of) drinks with y'all one night and playing Fashion Citation. I'm already pretty sure I'm headed for hell, but that would probably seal the deal.

-- Anonymous, October 17, 2001

PG, my one regret in life is that I didn't snap etiquette.com up when it was available a few years ago.

-- Anonymous, October 17, 2001

So I CAN get out of it then. Thanks Kristin!

But really, even if I did decide to throw one, I'd freak out so badly about planning it that I'd never have the shower. I can't even plan my own birthday party, y'all.

But it's OK, I'll start with a small dinner parties and work up from there. Pretty soon it'll be inaguration balls and such. Uh-huh!

-- Anonymous, October 17, 2001

So, when you say your family can't throw you a shower, that's just immediate family, right?

Your aunt or you cousin can, but not your mother or sister, right? That's what I always thought.

-- Anonymous, October 17, 2001

No one you are related to throws you a shower - because showers are a specific way of providing the bride/mother to be/etc., with the material things she didn't need previously, and will need for her 'new life' as a wife, mother - this also why showers are only for the firsts - first marriage, first baby. If need be, your family equips you for that transition, in the same way that they equiped you for the transition from high school to college, without inviting nonrelatives to pitch in with the expense. What they can throw you is a tea, that only your other relatives attend, and there can be gifts at that, but it isn't considered correct for a family member to invite a nonfamily member to gift you with stuff.

If a relative hosts: it is a tea, no nonrelative guests, some presents. If a friend hosts: it is a shower, relatives and nonrelatives attend, presents are mandatory.

It isn't nice for a mom to 'shower' her daughter, because showers are a 'mandatory present' party, and the logic is, if her daughter needed this stuff, her mother should just go out and buy it for her, instead of asking her friends to do it.

-- Anonymous, October 17, 2001

So how does one address the Pope? Your Eminence?

Just in case I run into him at Target.

-- Anonymous, October 17, 2001

Yet another moment in which a portable Emily Post would come in handy. I could tell you tomorrow, but I bet someone else will get you that answer first.

-- Anonymous, October 17, 2001

The pope: are you talking to him, or writing him? To write to him, his 'address' on the envelope would be
His Holiness, the Pope
or
His Holiness, Pope John III (or whatever his name is)
Vatican City
00187 Rome, Italy
His Salutation is Most Holy Father, or Your Holiness, and you would use the same if you were talking to him. If you are introducing the Pope, you can use either of those, or the Pontiff, or just The Pope, but don't call him Your Popeliness, or The Ultimate Pope Star 'cause he doesn't like it. If you are writing him, you sign your letter Your Holiness' most Humble Servant." Everything capitalized has to stay capitalized. I threw a baby shower for my cousin, even though I knew better. I'll shut up, now. But if you are writing him, say 'hi', for me!

-- Anonymous, October 17, 2001

I didn't mean "address" as in addressing an envelope. I meant I'm wandering the aisles at Target and "Oh shit, it's the Pope in the deodorant aisle, what do I call him?" Because certain people, like the Pope, you don't call by their first name or "dude." And the original question in the thread mentioned addressing the Pope.

OK, the Target analogy is stupid.

If I decide to write him, I'll say "hi" for you. What the heck, I've got his address now.

-- Anonymous, October 17, 2001

[fx: giggles at "The Ultimate Pope Star"]

My question: what's a polite way to tell someone you're allergic to certain scents? I don't want to be all "hey you, get rid of those pretty flowers before I die of perfume inhalation, and while you're at it you can go and have a shower because you have too much perfume on and it's making me hallucinate", but I don't want to, well, die of perfume inhalation while hallucinating.

-- Anonymous, October 18, 2001

With the flowers, just a sneeze and "Oh, I'm so sorry, but I can't be around those. Allergies." should do it.

With excessive perfume, you have to be sneaky. I read a suggestion once that you should pretend you love it, and say you know, that must be pricey stuff- I read this great thing the other day, about making scent last longer, by applying a bit first to a cotton ball and then to you. See, cos that really cuts down the scent, but it sounds like you're helping them prolong it. (Although I'm unsure I just explained it right).

-- Anonymous, October 18, 2001

Halp!

I have a thing tonight, a frou-frou thing. And I am starting to obsess about the introduction thing. I could look it up online but this situation isn't as cut-n-dried as the examples most sites offer.

Okay, here's the situation (your parents went away for a week's vacation...):

I am attended this thing as a guest of my older, more important friend. His date, not-his-wife (though it's not a scandal, the wife is out of town and X is a widow friend of theirs), is an older, more important lady that I've never met.

Coming as my guest (but also Older Gentleman's, technically), is my friend Young Lady. She's my age.

So, when we arrive at the pre-thing party to meet them, do I wait for Older Gentleman to introduce me to Older Lady, then introduce my friend Young Lady to them both? And in which order?

Or, do I introduce Young Lady to Older Gentleman first, then let him introduce us both to Older Lady?

This is making me crazy, yall. Cuh-raaaazy.

-- Anonymous, November 03, 2001

Well, I'm obviously not only a thread-killer but a FORUM-killer.

Wah.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2001

As soon as I start thinking about having to introduce anybody to anybody I just get the chills, because the formalality of who to whom just has never stuck in my brain, no matter how many times it has been drilled into my little head over the years. Pretty much I think this is the biggest reason why I got married - now, as the wife, I NEVER have to be the one introducing people again - I just have to smile and look charming and be introduced.

But I have a question of American etiquette - when is it, and isn't it appropriate for a woman to shake hands with someone? If I am introduced to an older man and his wife, do I shake hands with both of them, or neither of them? What if it is someone younger than I am? More powerful than me? Less powerful? Higher up the social ladder? Lower? Male? Female? Do I make their dog shake a paw? Are the rules different in the American workplace than in American Society? Help me out - I cannot find a pattern.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2001

I don't know if this would be formally different when one becomes married (I figured on looking that up when it becomes an issue for me), but as a single girl, I almost always extend my hand. I don't sometimes if I am seated, and I almost never do if I am seated at a table. I always do with men, and always with women that I consider in my peer group. With older ladies, I wait and follow their lead.

This is socially, of course. Professionally, I always shake hands, and always expect other women to as well.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2001

Yet another time when the Palm Emily Post would come in handy. Seriously, introductions are one of those things I always have to look up and recite for hours prior to a big shebang.

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2001

Thank you notes.

When is it appropriate to send a thank you note via email? In this case, it was to my brother for a birthday present. I believe it was appropriate seeing he's family.

See, I vaguely remember reading something about emailing invitations, which I would equate with Thank You notes, etiquette-wise. It's only OK to email invitations to close friends and relatives. Everybody else gets a mailed invite. Does my memory serve me correctly?

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2001

I'm in the all-handwritten, all the time camp on Thank You notes.

For invitations, I think email is okay for a very informal event like a keg party. The more intimate and formal the event, the less okay email gets.

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2001

Hannah, babe, I am so in your camp.

I would never send an e-mail thank-you note. If the occasion warrants a thank-you, period, it should be handwritten.

I do send e-mail invitations to our monthly supper club - because a survey of the regular attendees indicated that was the preferred method of getting the logistics on this very informal monthly deal.

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2001

I am so confused, here.... if you don't use those pretty engraved 'informals' for Thank You Notes, how do you ever manage to get through a box of them in a timely enough manner to reorder them with that pretty periwinkle ink that Crane just rereleased?

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2001

Kristin, how do I love thee? let me count the ways...

I would answer your question, but I know that you don't need an answer. Also, I don't want to be branded an honest-to-God Nazi. So I will admire you silently from afar, and wish I had been at your wedding.

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2001

*Sob* I am such a hick. At least I handwrote the Thank You to my sister, but the stationary wasn't engraved. And the only reason I wrote her is she doesn't like receiving personal email at work.

I suppose the verbal Thank You over the phone to my parents isn't sufficient? Hum, I hadn't thought of that until now.

And, um, what does one have engraved on the stationary? One's name?

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

The stationery that I currently use for thank-you notes is white, and my monogram is embossed on the front flap. I just finished a box of Cranes ecru notecards with my whole name engraved on the front flap.

I do think that blank cards are acceptable for family (unless it's a wedding gift thank-you), but that's just me. Your notecards can be printed/engraved with your first and last name, your initial (I'm not a fan of the one-initial cards), or a monogram - but never, ever with "Thank You."

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Mine are just embossed with an "M"

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

I think the reason I'm not crazy about the one-initial cards is because I don't like the way either "T" or "L" looks when it's all alone. No balance, or something.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

That makes sense. M is a very balanced letter.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Pineapple, you know I adore you from afar. And I would have invited you to my wedding, if we hadn't eloped to Vegas on our first date.

Stationery is my harsh mistress. I think blank cards are fine as well - it is nicer to have them engraved, or thermographed, but a personal letter on a nice, plain paper is lovely. I am not a huge fan of single initial monograms, but have been using one for the past 2.5 years because I can't commit to a new social paper - I think they hate me at Crane, because I go in, go through the books, see 20 things I want, and can't make up my mind about, and then i go home. Once a month, for nearly 3 years.

I am cursed, because I bought an engraver's die in my maiden name to do all my paper in, convinced I would never get married, and then, before my new paper was even delivered, I was married and it was all expensive *and* useless. The Bitch Goddess of Correspondence will not allow me to make any firm decision - gold mongram on ecru? Periwinkle ink with married name on white correspondence cards? Tiffany cards with First Name Maiden Name Married Name on them? And if just a monogram, is it the initials of my first, middle and married name, or first, maiden name, married name? And is it Nicer to do them blocked, in a row, or in one of those curly, girly monograms with the last name centred?

Do Americans carry social cards, generally? You know, smaller sized versions of business cards, only nicely engraved with just your name and the city you live in, and maybe a telephone number? I never see them here - women are always shoving their business cards at me with 4 different phone numbers on them, and their email and fax numbers and little corporate logos.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

I used to carry social cards, only I called them "calling cards" and I don't know which is more proper. I am going to have some new ones done after Christmas, because even when I was employed and had business cards, I hated using them socially.

While we are doing stationery roll call: my monarch and note sheets are the ecruwhite with charcoal gray thermography (I love the engraving, but can only afford it when someone else is paying); full name at the top. On full sheets I hate having my script monogram because it just eats writing space, and yall know I am wordy.

I hate to confess this, but I have been getting the (gasp!) pre-printed informals lately, with my last initial. I ran out this summer and haven't ordered more. But, on informals I do prefer the monogram - with my name, it looks better. Plus I am lucky that I have a nice symmetrical monogram. AB and I had a very geeky conversation not too long ago about how our monograms look.

I am afraid that when I go back for the re-order I will pull a Kristin, so I'm sure I will end up again with gray on ecru.

Although I am not a website-wish-list kind of girl, I would half-seriously consider creating one just so I could get a wardrobe of the new Pineapple Collection. Made for me? Yes, I think so.

True story: a dear friend of mine from CT, and roommate for two years, was living in Atlanta with her parents while engaged. She and her mother were invitation shopping, and Laney told her mom she had to have Crane. Her mom said, "well, it's your budget to spend how you like, so if you want to spend a jillion-hundred more for engraved Crane, it's your choice. These others are just as nice... What do you think, people actually will hold it up to the light and look for the watermark?"

Laney said she told her mother that I never received a single piece of social mail on which I didn't do that exact thing. I was so embarrassed.

Her mother told me at the wedding (joking) that if I hadn't been such a motivating factor on the Crane, that they could have afforded 100 more guests at the wedding.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Hannah, I have the M too!

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

That's because you know that secretly yall are the same person.

hee.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

But we have photos of ourselves together! Honest!

And it always weirds me out to see her referred to as HB, since that's what my dad calls me (for Hannah Banana, though, not Beth).

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Y'all. I have no thank-you cards, monogrammed or otherwise. I am shamed.

I should, though, because my initials are JLH, and when you put the H in the middle it looks very balanced indeed.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

I'm a monogram fiend, and I'm quite pleased with RLG.

I use preprinted notecards for family and close friends. Whenever I see something that catches my eye, I buy it. There's always an appropriate occasion eventually.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Nobody beats Smythson of Bond Street. They are opening a store in NY, and was the deciding factor in planning my next vacation in NY.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Nobody? buh...buh...

Crane! Do not listen to this crazy talk! I will never leave you.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

The stationary talk has been quite informative. I'll probably have to go to San Francisco for Crane.

The next logical step, 'cause I'm all logical-like, is pens. If y'all use such nice stationary, the right pen is essential.

A fountain pen perhaps? That's my favorite.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2001

Pineapple, I'm shocked that you don't have the pineapple design Crane does at Tiffany's. Shocked.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

So, umm, what's the proper etiquette for Christmas cards? Or, in this case, holiday cards. How many do you usually send out? Do you personalize each one? Do you send them to close friends, acquaintances, both, or neither?

(And Kristin, call me when you get here and I'll accompany you to Smythson's.)

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

I'm a Christmas Card frizeak. I send tons. TONS. And yes, I personalize each one and I buy special pens just for my cards.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

Yeah! I have a hot date with WG - and when we emerge from our expedition loaded down with 'think pink' accesories and the Smythson fashion diaries, and stationery wardrobes big enough to eradicate a rain forest you Crane types will weep for the amazing things we have purchased, and beautiful men will hunt us down and beg....BEG for us to give them one of our beautiful calling cards.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

Ok, see I didn't know about the beautiful men and the begging. Calling cards have gained considerable respect from me today.

I'm huge on Christmas cards. We send what feels like millions, and I write a note in every one. We also send a picture or two to family members, and while that could be construed as somewhat tacky, there has been such a positive response that we continue. I love getting pictures in my Christmas cards. I do not love getting a Christmas card made with a picture imbedded.

We're shopping about for this years card now. Yay!

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

Hannah, because I know you are working on the screenplay that will redeem the NonNaNoWriMo team, (i.e. us) I will forgive you not reading the earlier post where I said:

Although I am not a website-wish-list kind of girl, I would half-seriously consider creating one just so I could get a wardrobe of the new Pineapple Collection. Made for me? Yes, I think so.

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2001

PG! I do the same watermark thing. Because I am a snob.

I had social calling cards printed for free at VistaPrint.com. They ain't Cranes, but they ain't bad, and when I'm at League meetings or ASC alum functions, I prefer handing those out, rather than my business cards. Unfortunately, my address has changed, and I think I'll just wait until I'm married to have new, nice ones printed.

And on a similar note, I'm off to meet with the wedding cake people.

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

Hannah Beth, what pens do you get?

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

PG, I'm so lame. I appreciate your forgiveness.

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

Umm.

Say one of the sweetest and cutest and most gymnastic online journal writers posts a guest entry by a friend of hers. Say your reaction to this guest entry, and the friend's subsequent writing, is not favorable. Say, in the heat of your not-favorable reaction, you write a journal entry for your own journal in response

Do you a) post the entry, thereby (possibly) entertaining your readers, and tell the journal writer and her friend? b) rewrite is as an email to the friend? or c) let it go, because the journal writer probably wants to move on and it's just going to cause more defensiveness and headaches?

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

C.

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

Thought so.

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

Well, since the shit was tidied up YESTERDAY, I really don't see the use. But go ahead and write, you know, because it's your fucking journal and you should write whatever you want.

Jesus. Passive-aggressive much?

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

Word.

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

Oh, Lord. I guess I owe everyone an apology.

I wasn't sure if AB was still taking opinions/letters/whatnot or if she was just sick of the whole thing. I should have emailed her directly. I hadn't updated in over a week and I wrote something really fast, off the top of my head, and then was torn between posting (because, you know, not updating in over a week) and emailing it and . . . I'm just sorry. Didn't handle that well.

Please, NakedHannah and T, come back.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2001

Hey, now. Ain't nobody having to get angry like that, with the cursing and whatnot. Let's just cool out.

Here's the thing about forums, this one in particular. It's tres chatty, because there's only like, 15 of us, so I think everybody assumes it's ok to start little conversations in public, as WG did there. I guess it is ok, but anyone who does that has to be prepared for reaction from more than just the intended correspondent, since everyone can read what's written.

So, not to impolitely step upon the toes of the Etiquette Ladies and dole out advice, but I say, take up your issues via e-mail, and avoid the shitstorming.

Now, to remain on topic, I have a question about Thank You notes.

I have so many notes of Thanks to write to acknowledge the generosity of so many people during these last few weeks since my dad's death, but it's taking me a long time to get through them, as it is a more emotionally draining process than I imagined it would be.

Is it horrible if I send them out weeks, even a month from now?

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2001

Allison, NO, it's not horrible at all. Condolence thank-yous are different from wedding thank-yous. Everyone understands that the note-writer has a lot going on, and also that the process itself can be taxing. In fact, I don't ever even expect condolence thank-you notes, or if I receive one and it is written by an aunt or cousin or other not-immediate family, I am never offended. Do it in your own time; don't worry about "rules."

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2001

Al, if it makes you feel any better, I never finished sending out the thank you notes after my dad died. And I don't think anyone begrudged me that. You take your time.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2001

Well, thank you both very much. It's a hard thing, particularly the ones I have to write to my friends and their parents. The mother of one of my dearest friends is a concert pianist and played at the service, after I asked her like, the DAY before. She is the sweetest lady and my dad just loved that family. So, I was trying to write her a note and I just fell to pieces.

Anyway, Chris has suggested I try to do three a day and I think that's a good idea. I don't even have that many to, actually. My mother, The Amazing One, has already finished all of hers.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2001

I am not an etiquette goddess, obviously, so I was shocked at the idea that you were even worrying about thank you's, Al.

Seriously, I have never expected a thank you from someone for condolences and would be surprised to receive one from all but the closest of friends.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Here's one that I doubt is covered in the etiquette books, so I'd appreciate your advice.

First off, I am divorced from and engaged to remarry the same guy. So my name will not be changing, but in the meantime, what am I? Am I a Miss, a Ms., not a Mrs., right? I am so confused.

Second, though this one is far down the road, if you were to receive a wedding invitation from me, for my second marriage, to the same guy, would you be pleased, pissed, supportive, shocked, what? And what on God's green earth, should it say? We screwed it up the first time, so we are hoping two's the charm...come see us get married....AGAIN!"????

Help, please!

[edited by AB to close tag]

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Here's one that I doubt is covered in the etiquette books, so I'd appreciate your advice.

First off, I am divorced from and engaged to remarry the same guy. So my name will not be changing, but in the meantime, what am I? Am I a Miss, a Ms., not a Mrs., right? I am so confused.

Second, though this one is far down the road, if you were to receive a wedding invitation from me, for my second marriage, to the same guy, would you be pleased, pissed, supportive, shocked, what? And what on God's green earth, should it say? "We screwed it up the first time, so we are hoping two's the charm...come see us get married....AGAIN!"????

Help, please!

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Sorry! Double post.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

In re: titles, I think there is no question at all about Miss and Mrs. - the former when you have never been married, and the latter when you are currently married.

But, Ms. is a little trickier. I've always felt that Ms. is most proper for anyone ...ahem... between marriages. And, yet I hear about never-been-marrieds claiming it as well? What's the deal with that - any of the experts know?

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

The RCW style masters (yes, we have them) would say that Miss can mean either that a woman is unmarried or that she uses her maiden name (Miss Suu Kyi, etc.). According to them, Ms. is "permissable but ugly." But the RCW style masters are a bunch of stuffy British guys.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

I always think of Ms. as being the safe way to play. I know that Ms. is commonly used for divorced women, and I think it used to be considered appropriate for never-been-married-women-who-are- feminists. Now, I am always referred to as Ms., and was quite frequently even when I was married, I think simply because for years I looked too young to be the married person that I was.

So, what I'm trying to not-so-succinctly say, is this: I always thought that Ms. worked for everyone, Miss was only for never-been- marrieds, and Mrs. was only for presently marrieds.

Personally, I prefer to be addressed as Senorita Robyn.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

I think Ms. is a personal thing. Because of the feminist associations- when it comes to Ms., Miss, and Mrs., I let tradition slip sometimes, and tend to go by the "Call people what they like to be called" school.

And Allison, you take your own good time with those thank yous. Everyone's thoughts are with you, not worrying about etiquette stickles.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2001

I always go with "Ms." - it's just safest. I ALWAYS use it in business correspondence. I don't think anyone really cares, to tell you the truth, unless you KNOW they're a Mrs...

Personally, I prefer "Princess". Hee.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2001

Back to the notecard conversation. Is there an acceptable substitute to Crane? Because as much as I love them, I can't afford to spend $200 on monogrammed notecards.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

HB! Check your stationers' - you can get monogrammed Crane that isn't custom. I know at Paper Place here in Austin they carry a huge selection of thermographed informals with a single letter-monogram, and they are super-affordable.

That said, I don't know what else to recommend - anything that you think is pretty!

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

HB, have you never seen my Crane notecards? Just a single sheet, with an M in the corner in blue. Like, $13, for a pack of 10.

They also make really pretty monogrammed foldovers, too. Lucky for us that M and H are such nice looking initials.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

Back to the notecard conversation. Is there an acceptable substitute to Crane? Because as much as I love them, I can't afford to spend $200 on monogrammed notecards.

Hannah, I love letterpress notecards on heavy stock. Letterpress looks really elegant, I personally prefer it to thermographed (you might like thermo better, dunno :).

I'd do what PG suggests-- buy single-letter monogram. They also have really cute motifs as an alternative to a monogram. How about a bumblebee or a frog?

Check out:

http://www.julieholcombprinters.com/jhp/notecards.html

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

I'm a fan of the motif notecards - I just bought two more boxes of Crane's cards, one with a fleur-di-lis, and one with a pineapple - those are for hostess thank-you notes. (...and for PG, for if you email me your address, I'll mail you a copy of the pictures of us in Austin. You're so photogenic!)

I'm very excited that as of May, my initial will be A. For some reason, I think that A is lovelier as an initial than L. It's a nice, balanced letter.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

Yes, M is a lovely letter and I like the single initial foldovers, but I covet my full monogram is all.

When I graduated from high school my mom's best friend got me a lovely set of Crane with my full name, but alas, I've used them all. (Even if I did ration them and make them last a few years. That says I'm either a good rationer or I wasn't very good at writing thank yous in college. I like to go with the former.)

Thank you for all the suggestions!

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

OT: (...and for PG, for if you email me your address, I'll mail you a copy of the pictures of us in Austin. You're so photogenic!)

T, you are so sweet! And a total liar! Do you not remember that I was having an allergy attack and was snotting everywhere??? I looked like utter ass. I tried not to get in the photos, remember? But, I'll e-mail you anyway. ; )

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

Oh, Hannah, you know I'm only using the M until I can afford the full on monogram. I dream of a stationery wardrobe.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

Okay, I'm reviving this because, as a northerner who hasn't had the benefit of proper southern lady training, I need some special event fashion advice. My husband's cousin is getting married in New Orleans over Memorial Day weekend. She's Indian, and I've learned to handle a Hindu ceremony like a pro, but her fiance is, from what I've heard, an old-money WASP, and I'm more concerned about his ceremony. The WASP wedding will be at at 6:00 on a Friday at a Presbyterian church on, I believe, St. Charles Avenue, and the reception will be at the New Orleans Botanical Gardens. I have no sense of how fancy these venues are. Anyone have a suggestion of appropriate attire for this? I don't have to wear gloves, do I?

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2002

Huh - I'm getting married in New Orleans on Memorial Day weekend, but in a Catholic church on St. Charles Avenue, and we're having the reception at my family's home around the corner. So, we've established that I'm not your husband's cousin. On to the other questions:

If you're old money in New Orleans, there's only one Presbyterian church to beling to (it's an overwhelmingly Catholic town, and there are only so many options for old money Protestants to begin with. I bet you a dollar your husband's cousin went to school at Newmann.) It's a lovely church, and really, anything on St. Charles Avenue will be fancy-schmancy. You said that the cermony is at six in the evening - not black-tie (that's not until seven-thirty), but definitely not casual. Definitely too late in the day for gloves, though, so fear not.

You said that the reception is at the Botanical Gardens in City Park. That's a beautiful place for the reception. I imagine that the ceremony will last about thirty minutes, and City Park is about 15 minutes away from the Garden District (where you'll be for the ceremony). I imagine that they will have chartered busses to get everyone to the reception (in New Orleans, wedding and funeral caravans are required to have a police escort, so having chartered busses makes the whole business a lot easier. Plus, it's really cool.), so you will probably get to City Park around seven p.m. There will still be some daylight left, but the temperature might be iffy. They say that in New Orleans, if you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes and it will change. Last Memorial Day weekend, the weather was gorgeous - it was about 73 degrees after sunset. On the other hand, it could easily be 85 degrees and muggy as hell. You'll be at the Garden, and the reception will be indoors and outdoors.

So...

Here's what I think you should wear, taking everything I just said into consideration:

Wear a lovely silk sundress or tankdress with sweet strappy sandals or mules. Wear a sheer wrap - definitely nothing as heavy as a pashmina, but something with those dimensions in a sheer fabric (a silk cardigan will work well, also). That way, you will have something to cover your shoulders during the ceremony, but you'll have the option of having bare shoulders at the reception if it's hot and muggy, or something to give you a little coverage if there happens to be a cool breeze. If your hair is long, wear it up - that way, you won't have to deal with the havoc that the humidity will wreak on your hair. Find a lovely handbag, and you're ready for your New Orleans wedding.

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2002

So, with all these newly betrothed among us, I must ask about a very particular point of protocol. Maybe I'm the only one who's ever heard this?

I was raised that you only congratulate the new groom-to-be, and not his lovely bride-to-be -- that the implication is that he's lucky to have snagged such a great woman, but that to congratulate her implies that she's been trolling for a hubby and finally succeeded.

Am I archaic, y'all? You can just tell me straight up.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2002

I always heard you don't congratulate anyone on a wedding or betrothal (the bride, the groom, their parents, etc.). Of course, I always do, but I think Emily Post would agree with the reasoning you just gave, PG.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2002

I think you say "Congratulations!" to the guy and "Best wishes!" to the girl.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2002

I usually just say "Mazel tov!" to both. But of course I am actually not all that sure what "Mazel tov" translates to, other than, "Yay!"

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2002

ok, continuing on the wedding topic, i have a shower etiquette question.

we're hosting a shower for my roommate to take place in about a month. meanwhile, i just got an invitation for another shower for her to take place in 2 weeks. what's my obligation on this? i can't go, but need to know if i need to send a gift? and what's the deal with people having 10 showers these days? it all seems like a little much.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2002

Oh, you so don't need to get anyone more than one shower gift.

I think it's okay if the bride lives in one town and her family in another, for her friends in her hometown to throw her a shower and family friends in her family's hometown to throw another. That makes sense. But more than one shower in the same town is just crazy talk, unless the bride has two completely separate groups of friends who both want to throw her a shower. Then maybe I'd allow it. But I'd be happier if they got together and just did one.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2002

thank you. that is totally what i thought. it just seems like two (maybe more!) showers in atlanta is a tad bit excessive. whew.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2002

Translation of "Mazel Tov" (thank you, Leo Rosten, for writing The Joys of Yiddish): The literal meaning is "good luck" but everyone uses it to mean "congratulations!" or "Thank God." Mr. Rosten cautions the mazel tov-er not to utter the phrase to a man going into the hospital (you should say it when he's discharged), or to a fighter entering a ring (because "it suggests you are congratulating him for having made it to the arena"), but "At all Jewish celebrations -- a brith, wedding, graduation, Bar Mitzva -- you will hear "mazel tov!"s resounding like buckshot in a shed." So there you have it. Mazel tov is ok for offering good wishes to recently affianced couples.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2002

About the shower thing:

By the wedding, we'll have had two in New Orleans (a tea that my grandmother hosted via two cousins, so as not to be tacky, but my grandmother really, really, really wanted there to be a tea, and a big barbecue party (NOT a gift shower).

In Atlanta, we had two couple friends who wanted to have a coed party/shower, my closest girlfriends had a luncheon shower, and friends of C want to have a coed bar shower in May.

Clearly, I'm trashy.

The only people who are invited to all of the showers are our immediate families and the folks who are in the wedding parties. Our friends made it clear that it was important to them to have these parties for us, and we were delighted and flattered to know that we have friends who are so generous with their time and energy. We begged the people who were invited to more than one shower not to bring a gift to more than one, and they all replied with a "Pshaw!" These parties are all for really different crowds (My girlfriends, our mutual friends, C's attorney posse), and because each of the hosts wanted to have something completely different, it didn't seem to make sense to ask people to combine the showers.

So seriously, what do you do when you have these friends from different crowds and in different cities who all want to have something for you and they make it clear that it is important to them? Do you really tell them no? Are my friends now going to talk about what a trashy wench I am behind my back?

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

I wouldn't be offended by being invited to several different shower/parties, and I would feel confident that it would be understood that I would give my gift at the party or time I chose to be appropriate. And I don't think that most people do expect a gift per party. In my heart, I really do believe that you get invited to gatherings because your presence is desirable, and not just for gifts.

T, you are so not trashy. Maybe just a little trashy way down deep inside, and just enough so that you can really appreciate good country music.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

I can't imagine that there are people out there who develop their guest lists with potential gifts in mind. That would be so sad. It would make me question the integrity of that marriage, in fact.

But I'm black-and-white like that.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

Do people ever host no-gift showers? Y'all, I've been to one shower in my life, and that was when my office got together for a late- afternoon shower for one of my co-workers. What makes a shower a shower?

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

See, T, the totally different TONE of the parties makes it okay to not combine. You know you could never be trashy- I have a hard time seeing anyone thinking you and C are just trolling for the gifts.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

to clarify, because i feel kind of bad here, i don't think having more than one shower is bad. i think its great, and so flattering, that multiple groups of people would want to honor you and celebrate the big event. i just wasn't sure of my obligations gift-wise. i didn't want to be the trashy gift-less one!

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

I think it would be tacky to have two ladies-only traditional showers in the same city. Other than that, sky's the limit.

And also, I wanted to get back to the "congratulations" thing, because I think that is so archaic. Why should someone like Mike's intended not be congratulated? He's a great catch! She's lucky.

It is not 1884 where I'm a spinster at age 25 and would take offense to someone congratulating me on becoming engaged.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

Oh, and I would also like to point out that some of T's showers sound more like engagement parties than showers, and in my opinion, anyone who is thrilled about an engagement can throw an engagement party. Especially since there's no gift obligation tied up in that.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

We are lucky enought to have three showers in the same city planned for us. One is a girls only affair, the others are couples showers. All are for different groups of people with the only overlap being the bridal party and my immediate family (mom, sibs). I have told all the overlappers that one gift is fine, if they feel so inclined. I'm so looking forward to celebrating our upcoming wedding with my closest friends and relatives. It's so not about the gifts.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

Even if your showers were considered tacky (and I don't think they are), T, one could not blame you for the faux pas. A party is being thrown FOR you, not by you, and you can't be held responsible for the actions of the hosts. If people want to talk, they shouldn't be talking about you. As the honoree, you are beyond reproach. Besides, you have enough to worry about with the party YOU'RE throwing, your wedding.

And if you're trashy, then there is no hope for me or anyone I know. Whatsoever.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

Catherine, I think you hit the nail on the head with what weddings should be all about.

(Which is not to say that our other MATH brides and grooms don't feel the same way. I suspect they do.)

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

Ok, here's something I'm unsure about. If one asks about the gift obligation when being invited to more than one shower, aren't you supposed to say something to the effect of,"You shouldn't feel that you need to bring a gift at all. Only your presence is requested."

I know there are times when one is expected to bring a gift, but isn't it the job of the gift recipient to always be surprised by the generosity? Even at a birthday party or any type of shower, when you KNOW there will be gifts, if you are the guest of honor, isn't it your place to say 'no gifts necessary', and really the job of the person throwing the party to give gift suggestions when asked?

Maybe I'm way overthinking this.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

So if we were to have a party for Al, MOC, Mike, and possibly SheWhoWillMarryMike (or Mike's intended, or Bride of Mike, or The Future Mrs. Maryland) as part of (the still hypothetical so far) ForumCon '02, it might be a better idea to simply call it an "engagement party" or "pre-wedding party" or "an example of us using other people's future happiness as an excuse to get drunk and eat much cheese" instead of a "shower"? "Shower" seems like a loaded word.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

If gifts are not expected, it's not a shower or an engagement party. It's just a party, in honor of the couple.

And no, you aren't expected to attend more than one shower with a gift.

and, um, Mike is engaged? wtf? where have I been? Ted Demme died, AND Mike got engaged. Y'all, it's a big ol' rock.

(did they ever settle that Florida vote thing?)

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

"Shower" is only used if gifts are involved.

Robyn, it's technically a faux pas to ask your guests not to bring a gift, as that implies that they were expected to bring a gift in the first place.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

Y'all, it's a big ol' rock.

Quite possibly. Being a modest man, Mike hasn't given any specifics.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

I meant, actually, that it's a big ol' rock I've been under.

But... I can see where there would be confusion...

Mike, I guarantee you I was not implying you should start discussing the token of your engagement, if there even was a token (which I'm sure, if there was, it was lovely and perfectly appropriate).

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

PG, I know what you meant. I was just thinking somebody on this board just had to have gone to adiamondisforever.com.

But our Mike would never bring the tacky, would he? Sigh. Somebody has to speak for the tact-challenged: the heart-shaped diamond with heart-shaped side stones, the plaid Dessy bridemaids's dresses, the 18 showers, each with its own registry . . .

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

Oh, child. I have GONE to adiamondisforever.com. I just didn't want you to think that noone had. Plus, I'm drunk.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2002

I don't care how many showers/engagement parties a girl has - all I know is, as a guest, I only want to be invited to one.

When one of my dear friends got married, it tied up so many of my weekends that I started getting angry about it. Engaged on Valentine's day, married the end of the summer, and in between there was the announcement dinner, a sit down for 20 at her parent's house to tell their closest friends, the engagement party, to tell her other 100 closest friends, and their parent's friends, the more fun engagement party his friends threw, the shower hosted by the maid of honour, the shower hosted by her sorority, the shower hosted by her work girlfriends, the girls day party thrown by her new MIL to be (a spa day at her house), the pre-wedding brunch for out of town guests, the girls only party (think: bachelorette party, without the tacky 'bachelorette' part), and finally, the wedding itself, a full weekend of activity.

So far, 10 parties/events, in 6 months. This doesn't count all the 'last times' - where the soon-to-be-marrieds make you go to the cottage one last time before they get married, or fishing, or on vacation, etc. All those 'last time it will be just us girls' stuff.

Every week it seemed a pretty new invitation popped up in my mailbox - all fun events with people I adore, but please! While it is lovely that so many people loved this couple enough to fete them to death, they were all working off roughly the same guest list, and the guests were getting cranky.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2002

Mike, I guarantee you I was not implying you should start discussing the token of your engagement, if there even was a token (which I'm sure, if there was, it was lovely and perfectly appropriate).

Princess Cut, platinum filagree band, two traingular trillians on the sides. It kicks ass and takes names.

I didn't buy it at adiamondisforever.com, though -- although I will admit to checking out diamond prices online, just to get a sense of how much things cost. There was a zero percent chance I was actually going to buy one sight unseen.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2002

Oh, child. I have GONE to adiamondisforever.com.

Believe me, PG, you are not alone. E-mailing hideous adiamondisforever.com rings back and forth is a favorite activity of the ladies of MATH. We are especially partial to the two-tone geometric bands.

Also, their "design your own" feature can be quite fun.

Speaking of the Internet and rings, I actually found a picture of my ring-of-my-dreams at a local jeweler's web site many weeks ago and subsequently went to "visit" it. I have never been into jewelry at all so I knew when I saw this picture of this ring and went mooney- eyed over it, it had to be real love.

So, I went to, uh, visit it, and confirmed my obsession. Then I took the MOC to visit it. Then I conveniently left pictures of it around the apartment. Then, I wrote Anna Beth 7,500 e-mails about how much I loved it and it wanted it to come live with me.

And now, I stare at it all day long and shine it under every light source I can find.

Everyone thinks it's beautiful, but no one can believe my obsession with it.

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2002

I think that part of the reason I took the job I have now is because the lighting is so fabulous for my engagement ring. We have these halogen track lighting things that really aren't suited for an office, but boy, do our engagement rings sparkle!

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2002

Now I'm getting all jealous of the MATH+1 fiancées and their sparkly, sparkly rings.

My sweetie has given me plenty of rings, thanks to a deal with an ex- client dealing in silver jewelry, but none of them are that sparkly. Pretty, just not sparkly.

I'm curious: do the guys (since we have two of them who just recently proposed) feel pressured to get rings? As if, were you nervous that if you proposed and didn't have a ring, she wouldn't take you seriously? Just 'cause I know that should The Smoker and I ever get to that stage, the odds of my getting a ring are pretty low.

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2002

WG, I told the MOC once that he didn't have to give me a ring. He said "Oh, right."

I meant it, too. But he, apparently, wanted to give me one.

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2002

I long ago trained all my girlfriends to recite the exact ring I want on command. And have also torn out a picture, which is resting in the pages of my extra copy of "Confederacy of Dunces", which I also long ago figured I'd loan out once the time seemed appropriate.

But I selected the perfect ring at age 16, because I'm psychotic like that. I'm sure when the time arrives an onion ring will seem just perfect, though scalding to the skin.

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2002

Um, am I totally of a different species if I don't want an engagement ring when the time comes? Really, I don't. And I want an uber-plain wedding ring - no stones at all.

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2002

Kay, you are not of a different species, honest. I also want an uber- plain band, and I refuse to do the soldering too.

But... while of the same species, we are definitely of different [insert the next smallest classification of the flora/fauna scientific kind. I used to know those by memory. Fuckall. That would have been such a better analogy. I'm just too lazy to go look it up.]. Because let me say this for any future fiancee of mine that might ever read this:

On Planet Pineapple, the deal ain't for real till there's something on my hand. That's all I'm saying. We can be "engaged" and all, but without a ring it's just words. And a James Avery dinner ring ain't gon' do it... if you can't pony up more than a hundred bucks, we aren't even in the same ball park. It doesn't have to be the Kohinoor, but it better be something.

Okay, commence the flaming.

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2002

On Planet Pineapple, the deal ain't for real till there's something on my hand. That's all I'm saying. We can be "engaged" and all, but without a ring it's just word.

But, I really don't want an engagement ring, that's my dilemma. How do I gently let the future intended know that I don't want one, and if he refuses to believe me and gets one anyway, I WON'T wear it? A former SO and I were watching TV once and an ad for diamond rings came on. I casually mentioned that I don't want an engagement ring and only the plainest of wedding bands, and he looked at me like I'd sprouted a second head or something. And, to sort of bring this back to etiquette, what does the dear Miss Post say about this subject?

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2002

Emily says:

"An engagement ring is not essential to the validity of the betrothal. [emphasis the author's] Some people confuse the engagement ring with the wedding ring and believe the former is as indispensable as the latter. This is not the case. The wedding ring is a requirement of the marriage service. The engagement ring is simply evidence that the couple definitely plan to marry. Countless wives have never had an engagement ring at all."

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

Hi. I did it again with the italics.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

I wore my engagement ring every day until I got married. When I put on that plain gold band, I took the rock off and now I only wear it on special occasions. It is nice and pretty and all, but it slid around on my finger when I typed and cut into my hand when I tried to wear leather gloves in the winter. I was always paranoid about losing it or getting mugged for it. Life is much easier with the ring in my jewelry box.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

Ah ha! I was going to look that up last night, but Emily has yet to be unpacked.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

PG: Genus.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

Also, Kay, why don't you want an engagement ring? What if it were just as plain as the wedding band? Is it the materialistic expernsive diamond part you don't like?

Because, actually, that's my favorite part about my ring. (That, and it's sparkly.) I still wear it every single day, sometimes without my wedding band, even, because I love it so. But then, I'm a shallow girl.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

AB, I knew you would come through. You or Teri or the MOC.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

I have a diamond solitaire engagement ring and a plain gold band for a wedding ring. I also refuse to do the soldering thing. I wear them both, every single day. And even though I've been married for three years? I still love to watch my diamond sparkle under a good light source. I also use it to throw tiny rainbows against the interior of my car on a sunny day.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

AB, you aren't shallow. Just girly. And also not very tall, which makes you extra-girly. What are you doing on the computer? Get outside, fool.

Aha! Foiled, werncha? That front came through and FUBAR'd your yard plans.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

I don't necessarily want a ring.

I do want The Future WriterHusband to be able to purchase a ring.

If that makes any sense.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

My mother doesn't wear her engagement ring. Of course,she lost the first one and then lost the diamond from at least one replacement engagement ring, so I think that's part of it. She's not the supergirly type, but even if she was, I think there's a lose three diamonds and you're out clause somewhere.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

Damn right, PG. Besides, I'm at work, working, so I can't be outside in the yard, because I have to be here, making money so I can spend it all on flowers, to go in the yard. You're in awe of my tight logic, ain't you?

And I HATE a front. Hate.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

I didn't receive an engagement ring from xhusband, and the marriage failed.

Now I'm not saying that it was never meant to be because he didn't give me a ring, or that my disappointment over not getting a ring may have been the first crack in the foundation. But I feel much more confident this time around, wearing my sweet ring.

I won't permanently affix my engagement ring to my wedding band, but I will wear both.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

I think I'll mostly wear both, but there are times during the crafty Martha-ness when a diamond would be Big Bad News. Can't imagine trying to scrape hot glue or candle wax out from under a six-prong setting.

Plus, also, wouldn't you want to be Engagement-Ring-Free during the sex? I would imagine a terrible scratch, or putting someone's eye out.

This will be why I won't solder.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

...Kay, why don't you want an engagement ring? What if it were just as plain as the wedding band? Is it the materialistic expernsive diamond part you don't like?

Hmm, that's kind of hard to explain. It partly has to do with an aversion to having anything on my hands. I don't wear rings, ever, and I know I'd be very uncomfortable wearing an engagement ring partly for that reason. I hardly ever wear bracelets, even. Also, the idea of having something on my hand that's worth several months salary just gives me the heebeejeebies. When I say I want an uber- plain wedding band I'm thinking something along the lines of a $200 claddagh from the Ren Faire. Wait, what was that sound? I swear I just heard half the ladies here hit the floor in shock. Heh.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

See, I had never even HEARD of soldering the two together before now. Why would you?

Totally off topic, but do you now work for Proctor and Gamble, Pineapple? Didn't you see on Oprah Winfrey that they are owned by Satan? My mother's cousin swears it's true.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

I think because the metal can wear down over time from the rings rubbing together. But I didn't solder mine, and I won't. Sometimes my rings like to live alone.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

Hannah, I do! How did you find out?

Hee. I don't watch Oprah, so I didn't know that my employer was really Satan.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

See, I had never even HEARD of soldering the two together before now. Why would you?

My aunt had her engagement ring and wedding ring designed at the same time to fit together perfectly. It's almost "snap-tite". I love it, but I do think there's something to be said about having the boy pick it out without her knowing exactly when/where (even though I, for one, am completely scared of having to do this).

And Kay, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to wear a ring. Marriage is not about a simple piece of precious metal or a precious stone. It's not even about the vows. It is simply about pledging, explicitely, that you want to spend the rest of your life, and preferably longer, with that person. The little gold band and sparkly diamond? It's pretty, sure, but it doesn't make that pledge any stronger.

That said, I do like the wedding band as a symbol. I am a ring kinda guy, and for my wedding band, I want a small, shiny, circle of the strongest material that can be found. Titanium? Some sort of new-age steel? I don't care. Make it so that I can put it in a vice, and smash it with a hammer, and it won't bend. I like the symbolism, and I want an expensive ring to make that statement.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2002

Fred, that reminds me of a Carmen Agra Deedy story about her mother's wedding band. I think I have this right - her parents left Cuba when she was a baby, but when they left, they had to leave everything behind - including their platinum wedding bands. After they had been living in Georgia for a while and were back on their feet, her father surprised her mother with a new platinum wedding band. Money was still tight, and her mother was horrified that so much money had been spent on a little band. So, she returned it.

A few months later, her father again presented her mother with a shiny band. Her mother was, again, furious and wouldn't accept the ring. Her father, who worked in a steel mill, explained that the ring wasn't platinum - it was steel - and that he had made it himself.

Because, as the story goes, love bends steel.

So, Fred, maybe a steel wedding band will be right up your alley.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2002

My engagement ring is a claddagh. Actually, I have two- a plain silver one that's on my right hand and a claddagh with a green heart (he has one to match) that we got for our handfasting, which goes on the usual finger. The idea of a claddagh as engagement ring was all my idea, I told him I didn't want a diamond. I'm not that into diamonds, even if they're my birthstone. White's a boring color for a jewel and they're expensive, and I'd rather he spend the money on a lot of other things.

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2002

Ah, I love the symbolism of the claddagh (except maybe the political bit) for a wedding and/or engagement ring. A question though - I read somewhere that how you wear the ring and on what finger changes the meaning of the ring. For example, ring finger of right hand is sort of "friendship" while ring finger left hand with the little heart facing out is sort of "I'm involved/engaged to someone" and ring ringer left hand with the heart facing in is "married." Anyone else hear about that?

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2002

Oops, "ring ringer left hand" should of course be ring Finger left hand. How do you edit on this board, by the by?

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2002

That whole "what the placement of the ring" means thing confuses the heck out of me. I think that the heart with the point going towards your fingers is supposed to mean that you're still looking, and inward is supposed to mean you're with someone. As for finger, I guess it's right hand for single, left for taken. I've looked it up online before, I just don't remember offhand (and don't want to check my online journal to find the info while at work).

What confused the hell out of me is when we got handfasted, the guy doing the ceremony insisted that we wear the rings with the point towards the fingers on the left hand. Honestly, I just don't like that (looking at the heart upside-down disturbs me, especially since I wear another heart-shaped ring on the middle finger and the two just look wonky), and I've never found any other source that said to do that for handfastings. I just flipped the ring back later.

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2002

What's handfasting? I'm intrigued.

Kay, there's no way to edit posts after you submit them. Sure would be nice though!

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2002

Handfasting is kinda like a temporary marriage. Engaged couples back in the old days who didn't have a priest around could have the head of the clan perform a ceremony for them, and then they lived together for a year and a day to see if they were suited. If they weren't, they just separated at that point, if they were, they got officially married later.

We're not living together because we work in different towns, but what the hell, we're romantic like that and it's gonna be quite awhile before we do the official one.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2002

Handfasting is kinda like a temporary marriage. Engaged couples back in the old days who didn't have a priest around could have the head of the clan perform a ceremony for them, and then they lived together for a year and a day to see if they were suited. If they weren't, they just separated at that point, if they were, they got officially married later.

It's too bad this isn't more common. Think of all the problems that could be solved if people were handfasted before a binding marriage took place. The divorce rate would plummet.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

I need etiquette help. I need all the outside opinion I can get before I piss off a nice girl and all her family and friends too. And this isn't just pimping, either.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

PG, for reference purposes (I voted already), where should discussion of the relevant issues go? Directly in an email to you, here, or some other forum-type area?

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

Wherever you like! I am accepting all kinds of opinion. I just don't know what on earth to do here. It's like a Double-Whammy of Tack.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

Okay. It seems to me the two dilemmas differ in degree.

Dilemma #1 is the smaller one, to me. Yes, it's tacky to put the registry location on the invitation, but I don't think it's worth pissing off Lora over. I voted for "Remove name from invitation," though I might suggest a fifth option, which is that you convince the other two bridesmaids to form a united front and do it your way. After all, if you're going to all this trouble for her, she's unlikely to object to a decision y'all have collectively made.

(If she objects, you could always tell her that whether or not Victor actually was a present-hungry bitch, you wanted to make sure that no one got the impression of him as a present-hungry bitch.)

Dilemma #2 is a much bigger problem. Rest assured, PG, that my breasts are smaller than yours (we're talking when someone calls them a B cup, they preen for the rest of the day, until one of my Victoria's Secret bras tells them the cold hard truth), and I would not be comfortable in that dress. I'd be able to suck it up and pray the church air conditioning was off that day, but it doesn't sound like that's a viable option for you.

I think the only possible solution is to be very blunt with Lora. Make her see you in the dress, if possible, and ask her what her minister would think. Get Dee to back you up if need be. But you are perfectly within your rights to be stressed out about wearing a negligée in church.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

See, I voted to leave the registry information off the invites. You're the one throwing the party, and you can do it however you like. For them to make that kind of demand is beyond tacky.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

It seems like PG's overriding question is, "Are either of these things worth getting into a fight with Lora about?"

To that (if it wasn't clear on my earlier post) my answer would be no to the first and yes to the second. PG has made it very clear, in this thread and others, what she thinks proper attire in church should be, and how important that is to her.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

And that would be, is either of these things.

I'll go try to write copy now. Bleah.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

See, I think that there are very, very few things worth getting in a fight with a bride to be about. Now, I know all our MATH + 1 brides are gracious and laidback and sweet, but sometimes, even the nicest and most wonderful people (and I'm assuming Lora falls into this category- you wouldn't agree to be a bridesmaid for someone you weren't friends with and thought was always a total bitch) go a little crazy with weddings. It's part childhood dream wedding conditioning, part dealing with your parents and his parents and 82 million other details. The last thing you need is someone dropping out of your wedding- someone you love and care about and have wanted to share this day since before you went a bit bride bonkers- over something as petty as a dress.

I shared my opinion on this already over at 3WA, but I do want to repeat- the Lord, the minister and everyone else knows you didn't choose that dress to wear. Do as much as you can to explain how you feel about it, but in the end, if she wants it and the minister approves (and ooh, that is a good idea, calling them to ask their policy), you have to deal. It's one day. Strap yourself in and think burnt orange and forest green crushed velvet for your bridesmaids' dresses someday.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

I agree with Hannah about the dress. And about the invites, I'd leave the registry info off and send out the cards. That way everyone wins and you could tell some white lie about having already ordered the invites.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

On the first issue, I say suck it up and put the registry on the invitations. I don't think it's worth jeopardizing your friendship.

On the second issue... before you panic, can you go try on the dress? I mean, I don't know what you look like, but maybe it isn't going to be as bad as you think. I would do at least that before I made any further comments about the dress to the bride. Then maybe call her and say "Hey look, I tried it on, and I don't think it will work. How about if I get it altered? Or how about if I get a very similar dress in the exact same fabric and color?"

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

Julie's suggestions sound sensible. I'm not saying, "Drop out of the wedding." I'm saying, "While it makes sense to accommodate the bride most of the time, since it is, after all, her wedding, the dress issue sounds like one where it would be too much of a sacrifice to be accommodating and if the bride in question is (a) nice at heart and (b) familiar with the problems that come with having large-and-in- charge breasts -- and it sounds like she is indeed both -- she will ultimately forgive you, whatever freakout she might have at the time of the discussion."

If that makes any sense. I'm not any better at explaining this than I am explaining how to pick a negotiation course.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

#1 - no registry info, no nice letters. Bride has no say in her shower. Anyone who thought of getting them a registry item is surely bright enough to call the obvious registry places and get the info for themselves. The whole point of a shower is to pretend it has nothing to do with gifts.

#2 When my friend Pookie was a bridesmaid and the bride picked a truly hideous dress, Pooks went and tried it on, and had the salesgirl take a polaroid of it, which she then showed the bride and her mother, to demonstrate how awful this dress would be. Perhaps she made sure she had very bad hair that day, wore no makeup, and 'accidently' squeezed herself into a too small dress.

Perhaps. But the second polaroid, of a similiar dress with a more forgiving cut had Pooks wearing lipstick, smiling, and with her hair up, and was the correct size.

It was astonishing, the difference, and the bride opted not to put the girls in strapless dresses.

Or, if that doesn't work, maybe you can drape a nice Organza stole around yourself.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

The whole point of a shower is to pretend it has nothing to do with gifts.

Head . . . spinning . . . must . . . lie down . . .

Maybe it is a good thing that we don't seem to have many takers for the MATH+1ForumConEngagementOrgy, after all.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

And Kristin's friend is a very smart woman.

And I should not be at work right now. 12:30 am, y'all. GAH.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2002

Oh, wait. I have to change my answer. Because I just read your entry again, and realized, you asked the bride.

There you go. Classic mistake. NEVER ask the bride. Because then? You are screwed into doing what she wants, regardless of how awful it is. Because you asked what she wanted, and what she wants rules the day.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

PG, can't you say "Oh, no! While I was calling you to ask about the registry thing, one of the other bridesmaids had the invitations printed without it on there! Ooops!"

Because, I mean, seriously. It just is not done. (Although, yes, I know, it's done all the time - but it shouldn't be.) Or, can you blame the printer? Or something?

Regarding #2, I believe I voted on fauxpg.com to just suck it up and wear the dress. This is a situation over which you have no control. She thoughtlessly picked out a dress that, not only can you never wear again, you don't even want to wear it on the one occasion for which you are spending more than $100 to wear it. This is the burden which every bridesmaid must bear at least once in her life. Just wear it, secretly get it altered so you don't cause a riot in the church, and then bring a pretty little wrap or sweater to wear at the reception.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

1) Kristin is right - if you hadn't already asked Lora about the invitations and just left the information off, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. But now I would worry that she would somehow see one of the invitations. (Like if someone does one of those photo albums for her with all the invitations, pictures from the events surrounding the wedding, etc.) I would probably include the registry list in with the invitation but not put it on the invitation itself. Make it a completely seperate (and small) piece of paper, like an afterthought.

2) What I do not understand about the dress debate is, didn't she give the bridesmaids a choice of skirts and tops the 1st time around before she decided that they were not the proper shade of lavender? I think you should let her know that the thought of wearing a dress that will not support your body type is really making you anxious. Also, point out that she did not give more than one style choice when she changed the dress and that there are other choices in the same shade of lavender, and would she mind giving the bridesmaids an option?

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

PG -- I'm 5'4" with a D cup and I was thisclose to making that second dress my bridal gown. Please try it on before you make assumptions about how it fits or take a stand with the bride. I felt like the draping in the front helped hide my excessive boobishness and there was definitely no cleavage when I tried it on. That model just has monster tall shoulders. Also, as I recall, it is satin lined and could easily disguise suspension-bridge grade undergarments. God knows I would have been planning to wear them. It fit me very well and was a flattering shape for a short girl. The only reason I didn't pick that dress was because I decided it was too casual.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Oh, y'all rock. I have this whole body of input to work with now.

I am definitely going to be trying the dress on, which I did not mention in the entry. I would never make a serious decision based strictly on the website photo. And yet - I have 28 years of putting clothes on this body, and I can pretty much tell what is going to look horrendous. But, I am certainly going to reserve final action till I try the dress on.

On the asking the bride... I did, but I thought I was asking about her whole guest list, not about my shower in particular. When I asked her if she wanted me to send a note, I was asking about everyone she was inviting to the wedding period, not just those on the guest list for this shower. She translated it as such, and it became an issue about my shower.

I am going to hammer Kristin's statement into my head, and chant it like a mantra until I am too old for this shit: "never ask the bride. never ask the bride..."

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

PG, here's what I would do:

1. Lie to the bride and tell her that you already had the invites printed without the registry information.

2. Print up the casual registry notes.

3. Only mail the registry notes to people that you know don't know any better, and don't mail them to your friends and other people who would be horrified that you would be associated with such a faux pas.

That's what I did with those awful RSVP cards when I mailed my wedding invitations - the people who we know actually expect those suckers received one, and the people who would be horrified that I could be so tacky as to assume that they are incapable of writing a proper RSVP note did not receive one.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

This is sort of off on a tangent, but what do you use for address when a woman keeps her maiden name? For example if Jane Jones marries Tom Smith she's not Mrs. Smith, not Mrs. Jones, and not Miss Jones anymore. Does it have to be Ms. Jones?

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Kay, according to the Really Cool Weekly Style Guide, it is Ms Jones. We call Benazir Bhutto "Ms Bhutto," for example.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

PG, you were exaggerating about the "eat fourteen calories a day" part of sucking it up and wearing the dress, right? Because no bride, friend or not, is worth starving the pineapple.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Oh, WG, you are sweet -- but, ask Teri or AB... I've got a ways to go before I keel over.

But, no, I'm not being unrealistic. In fact, it's mostly the walking 3 miles a day now (as opposed to walking ...um... from my apartment to my car to the office) that is the real modification.

And Kay! Don't apologize for the tangent! I didn't mean to hijack the Etiquette thread with my bridesmaid woes.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Someone earlier said that a shower isn't about getting presents which made WG swoon. Heh. After a moment's thought I realized that I also thought the very reason for the existence of showers was to get presents. I believe showers originally were meant to help a couple in outfitting their new home, since it used to be that unmarrieds were living at home and had no linens, dishes, etc. of their own before marrying. Nowadays, most people are living on their own before they marry and the need for the gift-giving has sort of evaporated but the idea of getting gifts at a shower is still an intrinsic part of the shebang. Yes? No?

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

This is an unpopular view, evidently, but...

I think it would be a hurtful act to not to include the registry after you have been asked by both bride and (sort of) groom. She will probably find out and after it has already been brought up at least twice, and she has been clear that the etiquette question really just doesn't seem to matter to her. Basically, she specifically asked that you discard what you would prefer and do what she would like for the party that you are throwing for her.

It is your party and I might just be a big pushover, but if a friend specifically asks you to do something, don't you just do it because you love her and want her to have a great time? If she were throwing the shower for you and asked for your preference, would you not be pretty pissed if she just ignored what you said and did the opposite?

I'm all for etiquette, truly, but not if it may hurt the guest of honor.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Oh, and my heart is breaking for you on the dress thing. I want to say "just wear it and then change asap", but I know that if it were presented to me, I would not be able to do it. I honestly don't know what I would do, other than beg the bride to let me change the style.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

I think- but I'm not sure- she can be Mrs. or Ms. Jones. Don't quote me on it, though.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

I think WG is right, it has to Ms. Jones. If she used Mrs. Jones that would mean she was married to a man whose last name was Jones, yes? Someone needs to update some of these 'rules' to reflect current times. The whole miss/mrs thing was created back when women never kept their maiden names after marriage. Guys are always Mister. Why can't women just have one title regardless like guys do? Would be oh- so-much easier. Let's make one up! Then we can start using it everywhere and eventually it will be accepted at large and ... well, I can daydream, right?

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

"Someone earlier said that a shower isn't about getting presents which made WG swoon. Heh. After a moment's thought I realized that I also thought the very reason for the existence of showers was to get presents. ... but the idea of getting gifts at a shower is still an intrinsic part of the shebang. Yes? No? "

This is where etiquette and Being Nice gets to be really fun. Because you are correct - the whole idea is to 'shower' the bride with things she needs to set up housekeeping, which is why only first marriages and first babies get showered. And the showering process involves a present.

But then, circling around the entire wedding process is this fun pretend universe in which the very idea of recieving a gift is so alien to the bride that she must be perpetually stunned into incoherence when the UPS guy shows up at her door, or when she walks into a room and is surprised by 5 of her best friends and 30 other women she didn't like much in college, who have gathered to shower her.

And at that shower, the very purpose of which is to gift the bride, everyone has to pretend it is all some fantastically happy accident that they happened to all show up with elaborately wrapped things from Crate and Barrel or Williams-Sonoma. In fact, this is exactly why it is so important for the hostess to spike the punch - a little alchol goes a long way in helping this kind of fiction along.

Since the idea of registering for gifts is completely at odds with etiquette, and at the same time a gift registry is very convenient for guests, the trick is to pretend that it doesn't exist, while at the same time making sure everyone knows it does.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Hey, Kristin, are you ready for some of that hot girl-on-girl action? Because, you know, I was serious. I just think we were meant to be.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

That's what I did with those awful RSVP cards when I mailed my wedding invitations - the people who we know actually expect those suckers received one, and the people who would be horrified that I could be so tacky as to assume that they are incapable of writing a proper RSVP note did not receive one.

You know I just ran and checked my invitation! So, I am just going to have to assume the enclosed response card was for the benefit of The MOC.

Poor ol' T, y'all. You can't fault a so-soon-bride-to-be for sticking her foot in her mouth a mere six weeks before her wedding. At least it is not a foot that comes with an ankle bracelet, as I saw one bride walk down the aisle with, along with matching ones for her Pepto-pink-clad (with natural hose!) bridesmaids. (This was the wedding for which I was hired to sing a "surprise song" for the groom. Only a 19-year-old bride would have such an idea. I often wonder if they are still married. I did not know the girl, but she did marry her Tae Kwan Do instructor, so surely theirs was a marriage made in ass-kicking heaven.)

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

The whole miss/mrs thing was created back when women never kept their maiden names after marriage. Guys are always Mister. Why can't women just have one title regardless like guys do? Would be oh- so- much easier. Let's make one up!

Wouldn't that one title, to be used regardless of marital status, be Ms.?

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Al, see, what had happened was, my mother had insisted that the invitations be postmarked from New Orleans, so I said, fine, but that means that you'll be in charge of addressing the envelopes and all that as I am busy with Miss America and all, and she said that's fine, and since I am all consumed with Miss America, and stuff, I didn't have the time to go through the whole invitation list to designate everyone as I had originally intended, and when my mother asked me what course to take with the RSVP cards, I just said, you know what, fuck it, just send them to all of the out-of-towners.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

A likely story... but one that I will accept.

In my own ettiquette hell news, I sadly admit that I was the cause of recent engagement party invites being sent out less than two weeks in advance because I simply could not get my act together enough to get JoLo the addresses.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

I love this thread. That's all. Carry on.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Al, you know when my invitation arrived yesterday that was the FIRST thing I looked for. And since I know T knows I know better, I'm buying her story. This time.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

The whole miss/mrs thing was created back when women never kept their maiden names after marriage. Guys are always Mister. Why can't women just have one title regardless like guys do?

Wouldn't that one title, to be used regardless of marital status, be Ms.?

Yes, but I have a problem with Ms. because a lot of people still see it as "oh, so you're a feminist" whenever a woman uses Ms. And I'd like to see Miss and Mrs abolished so we just have one title for women the way we have only one title for men. I'd like a one-title- fits all that has no cultural baggage attached, maybe like the Japanese san. Or, we could create a new title for guys so they have a married or not tag attached to their names.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Ah, I see. The whole "oh, so you're a feminist" thing isn't a problem for me, because I am a feminist. I see your point, of course, but I don't think there's a way to get around creating a non-marital-status-specific title for women without invoking the F-word, because to me, the whole idea of developing such a term is fundamentally a feminist one. Which is sort of a shame, because there ought to be a way to introduce people socially without having political beliefs automatically become a part of the conversation. I think we're a long, long way off from that standard, though, so I just try to call people what they want to be called.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Great reply! I think we're on the same wavelength on this one. I actually scrolled waaaaay back in this thread to around mid-November and found some discussion on this same topic. WG actually said the RCW style folks consider Ms. to be permissible but ugly. Ouch.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Keep in mind that the RCW style folks also slap "centre", "favour", "labour", and "organise" EVERYWHERE. (With the exception of the Australian Labor Party. Apparently the style maven got a massive Ozzie bribe at some point.) As I complained in another thread, it never was the World Trade Centre. So while I have to swear by RCWStyle as gospel at my job, it is not applicable always and forever.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

To all the newly-engaged folks out there, heed my warning:

There will be a point when you decide, "You know, just fuck it. I don't care."

Trust me.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Is it weird that I have already reached that point?

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Well, there honestly isn't a whole lot I cared about to begin with (except the pigs-n-blankets being served, which was a given).

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Allison, it's not weird at all.

Really, I've had am easy year of wedding planning. I resist drama, and I'm fortunate that everyone in my family and in C's family is sane and well-adjusted. There's been no drama, no screaming, no uncomfortable moments. I'm really fortunate. At this point, though, there are a lot of things that I just don't care about.

You really realize what's important to you when you plan a wedding. And here, I'm not talking about the bigger picture, the marriage. I'm not nervous or uncomfortable with that at all. You realize that you, say, don't give a damn about what kind of cake you have (we're having a simple white-iced cake with fresh flowers - but honestly, I'm more excited about the croquembouche that we're having as a groom's cake. I mean, a pile of cream puffs?? Sign me up.) You realize that you can suck it up and have invitations that aren't on 100% cotton paper if that means you can have more booze, because you know that you're in the minority of people who actually hold invitations up to the light to see the watermark. You realize that it is perfectly fine to wrangle up some friends with lovely handwriting to address your invitations rather than spend $1.50 per envelope for a calligrapher to beautifully address envelopes that no one besides your grandmother will keep.

That kind of thing.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

I want to be T when I grow up. Always have.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

I TOTALLY agree with T on this one. The big things I really care about wedding-wise, I've taken the time and energy to get right. Other things I find falling down my list of priorities. Case in point...we ditched the idea of a limo (the reception is five minutes away from the church) and spent that money on a string quartet for the service and a trumpeter for Trumpets Voluntary. Music is important to us and that's something we focused on. As the day grows nearer, my stress level remains very low. This is greatly due to the fact that I have alot of help and there are some things I really don't care about. They'll get done, but I've learned to let it go. That and I'm doing a lot of visual imaging of the honeymoon trip. That relaxes me.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

It's something - I'll skim the boards on theknot.com every few weeks and I'm always left bewildered. Those women take their weddings so seriously, like the wedding is the last thing they'll ever do in their whole lives. They obsess about the silliest things, and are always telling stories about freakouts they have with the fiance or with their future mother-in-law. I don't get it.

(And for heaven's sake, why do people want to fracture their relationship with their future mother-in-law over something as trivial - when you get right down to it - as seating arrangements or what color dress they want to wear? You are talking about your husband's mother, and the grandmother of your potential children. Why rock the boat before the deal is even sealed? Choose your battles, ladies.)

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

Amen, T. A. Men. You should all know that I am using this thread (and the other one) as a guide as I delegate right and left and work to remain calm. Good news: officiant booked!

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

Catherine, I am right there with you on the honeymoon visualization. Every time it is just too much - work, wedding, etc., I imagine Hawaii, and Hawaii is nice.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

Oh, you lucky wenches. I STILL haven't gone on my honeymoon. I went to work the Monday after my wedding! And now I'm due to have a baby in ten weeks. Think I'll EVER go?

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

Aidan, you are not alone. We won't be honeymooning for some time after the wedding. It's a family tradition, apparently: my parents couldn't coordinate vacation time for their honeymoon, either, and my Mom was 6 months pregnant with me by the time they finally did go. Camping. At Big Bend. Mom says the hot springs were great for her sore back, but you will never, ever, catch me saying "Oh, honey, you know, I would just love to go camping for our honeymoon." Get me to the beach, stat!

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

I just love how T always says that really, she just wants to be married to C. That girl's got her priorities in order.

Carry on, before we have to start a new we love T thread.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

Okay, etiquette mavens, I have a doozy of a story for you. This weekend I found myself thinking, What Would T Do?

On Sunday, my cousin threw a baby shower for me at her home. Amongst those invited was my husband's aunt, who lives over an hour away. I was thrilled to see her arrive, since she was coming from so far away, and my husband's family was not well represented at the shower. However, she walked in with her elderly husband, Uncle R, who promptly planted himself on the couch amidst the group of women. It soon became evident that Uncle R was with us for the duration of the shower.

My mother threw a hissy fit. She took my mother-in-law aside and asked if there was somewhere Uncle R could go. My mother-in-law declined to address the situation, and didn't encourage him to stay OR leave. Then my mother interrupted me while I was entertaining my guests to take ME aside and bitch at me about it. I told her to get off my ass, I was trying to enjoy my shower.

People, Uncle R engaged everyone in polite conversation. He ate when the rest of us enjoyed appetizers and cake. He PLAYED ALL THE BABY SHOWER GAMES. Without once acknowledging that he was out of place in a ROOM FULL OF WOMEN. Truthfully, it didn't bother me. And everyone except my mother got over it. She is STILL throwing the hissy fit -- she is offended by the aunt bringing her husband, and also by my mother-in-law's refusal to do anything about it. I think my mom was the rudest when she made a big deal about it and dragged me away from the party to yell at me. I'm pissed she won't shut up about what a disaster it was, when I had a great time.

So who was in the wrong? What could we have done about Uncle R that wouldn't have been a breech of etiquette?

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2002

Well, since your cousin was the hostess, and you were the guest of honor, and your mother, while she is your mother, was technically just another guest at the shower, she had no right to have the hissy- fit.

Really, the hostess of the shower is the only person who can ask someone to leave, or to be tactful, say, "Hey, Uncle R, you should see what we've been doing with the boat! Let me show you where the boat shed is..." or whatnot.

But why would the hostess want to do that in the first place? Although it was intended to be a women-only baby shower, and I'm sure that his name wasn't on the envelope, it sounds like no one minded his presence and that he had a fine time. It's not like he parked himself on the sofa, grabbed the remote, turned on Nascar, and complained that the ladies were too loud for him to concentrate on the Petty family. He joined in, he had a good time, and more importantly, you and your friends had a good time.

I don't understand why this offended your mother. It wasn't her shower and it's not like your mother said, "Hey, make it explicitly clear that Uncle R is not invited, because he smells and asks us to pull his finger," and your aunt defiantly brought him anyway. It's not your mother's problem, and she had no right to potentially damage her relationship with her inlaws, pull you away from your shower to have a hissy fit - making your hostess and the other guests far more uncomfortable than your uncle's presence ever could - to let you know that she wasn't happy.

Anyway. Did your mother ever tell you why him being there upset her so much? Is it because she had a vision of the shower for her first grandchild and a male presence disrupted that? Cut her some slack - she is your mother, after all - but it sounds like you did the right thing to tell her that you were disappointed in her behavior.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2002

Thanks for responding, T. And good luck with the wedding coming up soon!

I think my mom was pushing for a boat shed scenario when she asked my MIL and me if there was somewhere Uncle R could go. She also pushed at the hostess about this, too. And she had a very "he CANNOT stay here" attitude that was rude.

My mother's issue is embarrassment in front of her family and friends. I mean, it's pretty freakin unusual to have a 73-year-old man not only show up for but participate in a baby shower. Only my husband's charmingly eccentric (read: crazy) family would do such a thing, and before I married him my mom never had to deal with anything like this. Well, she could have done it with a lot more grace and tact and to me, that says more about her than it does about Aunt and Uncle R. She's concerned with appearances, while I'm more concerned with having a good time. It still cracks me up thinking about it, but it's sweet, too. Someday we will tell Lily that Uncle R loves her best because he actually CAME to her shower.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2002

The first rule of etiquette broken here was in bringing an univited guest, sure. But once that happens, there is a larger rule of etiquett against making a scene and making one's host, the guest of honor, and guests feel uncomfortable, so your mother was even more out of line.

Of course, all etiquette is off when dealing with one's own mother in some cases. I would have just said "Mom, I know this upsets you, but there is nothing we can do about it now. Let's just try to enjoy the party." and stayed out of the mother/mother-in-law issue altogether.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2002

I am guessing, by his age, that there were only two options - either the aunt didn't get to come to the baby shower, or her husband could bring her, but at 73, wasn't really up for heading off by himself for a few hours.

Call me crazy, but it seems kind of sweet that he brought his wife, and then, stuck at the shower, got into the swing of things. Especially if he ended up in that kind of awkward position for the sake of his wife being able to attend.

In the Proper Social, it is a toss up, who is ruder - the man attending the shower, or the woman pitching a hissy about another guest's behaviour, although I would go with #2, myself, because a very important part of Behaving Well is not commenting in any way on anyone else's behaviour, no matter how outrageous it may seem - for reference, see: hostesses drinking finger bowls because a guest does, the host who broke up a fight at a party and then smiled and called it 'just a bit of excitement' and all those women at the Labour Day Lobsterfest at the Club who pretend they don't notice all the teenagers jumping in the pool in their long dresses.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2002

As a Southern lass raised with Vanderbilt and Post, teas, yacht club dinners and an invite to debut (declined for personal reasons), etiquette has been beaten into my brain since I was, like, a zygote. A twinkle in my mother's eye, a chocolate bar in my father's back pocket. You geddit. I tend to behave when circumstances demand it, despite mockery from my peers. But PG's dilemma is reminding me of something I did that may not have been perfectly polite. You decide, and either smite or absolve me aappropriate.

The bride, my sister- in-law, chose excellent gowns (relatively affordable, long, dark navy, restrained lower back drape, small "train-let", bra-hiding bodice, no ass-bows, ruffles, hoops or tiers whatsoever) and I have, in fact, worn mine twice since the wedding. However, her hairdo lady was beastly. She used up all the flattering styles in her repetoire before she got to my head and then, despite my protests, slicked my hair back tightly (which made my ear stick out unattractively) and faux- marcelled it (translation: forced my fine, wavy hair into unnatural swoops and ridges with a gallon of Aqua-Net). When she showed me the horror that had been perpetrated on my head, I had to force myself not to cry. We had to take pictures--chop, chop! smile, now!--before I could do anything. So I sucked it up and posed with helmet hair and sugarbowl ears, and then, before the ceremony proper, I slipped off during "down time" and re-did my hair prior to the ceremony, and it honest-to-god looked better. The bride said so. My mom said so. The hairdresser was pissed. But I no longer wanted to cry. And we weren't doing "matchy-match" updos, and I didn't let it just hang down, I put it up. But it wasn't "my day" and it shouldn't have mattered that I looked like I'd been hit with an ugly stick, right?

Was I hideously rude to re-do my hair? And am I hideously rude to hate the photo I got for Xmas that year which was, of course, the ONLY ONE with me in the hideous hair? I didn't SAY so, but I hardly jumped for joy and I do not display it. Add to this that I am not very close to my brother, for good reasons, and that my mother looks for transgressions in etiquette to snipe at us about, often resorting to mind-reading tricks wherein she yells at me for something I've neither said nor done, but which she does know I'm thinking, even if I haven't said or done anything. (Ya folla?) Am I obligated to display the Ugly Head Picture in my own home when she / my brother & SIL visit?

I suspect I've sinned only slightly, if at all, but you wouldn't believe the shit I get for this and similar things. I maintain that, if the bride wasn't anal about our hair, it wasn't terrible to fix it. (The other photos, none of which I have, look better because the bridesmaids are all noticeably less tense. (Champagne. Non-hideous hairdos.) But isn't about ME / US, it's about the BRIDE. Right?) I also think that, in my home, I can hide (or burn!) the Ugly Head Photo if I damn well want to, but that I have to suck it up if the Ugly Head Picture is displayed elsewhere.

Thoughts? Do I suck? I'm just tired of hearing about it.

(And if I were PG, I'd try on a dress that was too BIG and exposed my ta-tas obscenely, and take a Polaroid of THAT to show the bride: "It's your day, Bridezilla, of course it is, but I am concerned that all attention will be on my nipples and my Boobicles of Imminent Danger, and not your nuptial-related radiance, if I wear that dress...look at THIS photo....")

But what do I know? I'm letting my family beat up on me about Ugly Hair Photos.

-- Anonymous, July 03, 2002