Ok so I know that theoretically its possible for all breeds of dogs to cross with eachother (there are ABOUT 400 different pure recognized breeds)so my question is if a large and small dog had pups woudnt the small dog have to be the sire cause if it was the other way around woudnt such large pups kill the mother. And also if the small dog was the sire in most cases wouldnt it require humen assitance (ex. dahsund to german sheperd)please send any opinions.... (ive actually seen a pictures of a large male dog mating with a small female and when they were in the tie the females back legs actually were off th ground....)

-- D. ENDO... (benhar@aol.com), August 03, 2001

Answers

Whelping isn't a problem only with large/small crosses. Some purebreds (that shouldn't have been developed at all) have to be delivered C-section everytime. I'm thinking particularly of Pugs. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.) These dogs are so grotesque that I think the breed should be discontinued. What I understand is that they cannot deliver pups normally.

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), August 03, 2001.

LOL!!! LOL!!!! I just had a picture in my mind of a Newfoundland and a Chihuahua. NO WAY!!!!!

-- TomK (tjk@cac.net), August 03, 2001.

I once saw a beagle on my neighbors Newfoundland. I was just a kid at the time and it is burned on my brain..what a picture! rofl

-- Alison in N.S. (aproteau@istar.ca), August 03, 2001.

It is possible for ANY breeds to cross, just ask any Vet or Vet tech! We've seen them all!!! The above poster is right about some breeds almost always having to be delivered C section. I suppose more Bulldogs and tiny toy breeds more than others. As for the suitability of some breeds I don't think we, as a species have a right to look down our noses at dogs. Look at what WE are doing to ourselves re having kids. Fertility clinics, PPD, C sections, absolute stupidity re care of same. Neglect and even murder. Seems like some of us haven't the brains to keep children out of hot automobiles! Very sad. Now, having said that, every time I see a Shar pei I wonder, "what were those people thinking!" LOL

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), August 03, 2001.

It is absolutely true that any breed of dog can breed with any other breed. There has actually been a breeding of a male chihuahua with a Great Dane and this was without human intervention. The chihuahua got himself up on the arm of a couch and the great dane cooperated. The owner, who thought he didn't have to worry about them breeding, walked in and found them tied. I am not sure if there were ever puppies produced from the breeding but they definitely bred. The instinct to breed is very strong in dogs and they will try anything to succeed. Unfortunately, sometimes this results in serious injury or death on the part of one or both of the dogs. One of the other comments is definitely true about certain breeds requiring C sections or as a minimum assistance every time with the natural birth. These tend to be the smooched faced breeds like the pugs, bull dog, boston terrier, etc. Their heads are so much wider than their bodies that they cannot birth them properly. I think this is taking the breeding of dogs way too far (and I am a breeder of great danes). These dogs also have trouble breathing properly, have a tendency for their eyeballs to pop out of their sockets and other things which should have stopped them from being bred a long time ago but humans want dogs to look a certain way whether or not it is detrimental to the breed. German shepherds is another example. The current standard emphasizes the slanted backs to the point that the dogs have a lot of trouble with their hips and back legs. In my opinion, they have ruined a perfectly good breed.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), August 03, 2001.

Excellent post Colleen! I have often been at local homestead type farms, seeing such poor conformation especially in the rear legs and udder of their family milkers. No thought at all is put on the offspring of these does with huge pendulous udders that nearly touch the ground when full. Just breeding to any old goat just because he looks like the breed. Something else another breeder of Nubians and I were just discussing yesterday was heigth. My 11 year old is at least 6 inches shorter at the withers than my best 4 year old is. Just how much taller will we be able to get these goats before somebody says stop! I already buck some of the fad with my big wide buldozer girls, definetly old style bodies, but you can't buck the stature points. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 03, 2001.

Does anyone else find this post weird ?

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 03, 2001.

I once heard of a woman who stupidly took her champion St. Bernard bitch to a dog show---while the dog was in heat! I don't know if she wasn't aware of her condition or what, but it is strictly against the rules to have a dog in heat at a dog show! The woman was sitting with her St. Bernard laying beside her chair, and she looked down and sure enough - a Chihuahua was having a go! I would have LOVED to have seen those puppies. Can you imagine teeny tiny St. Bernards? Or HUGE slobbering Chihuahuas? LOL!

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), August 03, 2001.

25 years ago I left my registered yellow Lab female at a friends because I had to fly to Denver, she was in heat, but he only had a dachund. Yep, pups. Another friend kept one of the pups, Mingo, and it was a perfect minature black lab, just a bit bigger than the dachund, and stockier. BUT, it always ran around the coffee table in circles peeing all the while and would not stop. It was not right in the head!

Two opposite breeds as parents, and the poor pup dosen't know how to act.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), August 03, 2001.

I thought this thread was going to be one of those joke threads about weird names for dog crosses -- for instance, Airedale X Poodle = Airedoodle.

Who ever that was wondering if anyone found this thread weird: For most forums, yes. Not for CS, though! ;-)

-- Joy F [in So. Wisconsin] (CatFlunky@excite.com), August 03, 2001.

Wierd? Yes! Homestad related? Why Soytenly Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk.

Hows that for lightening up. Can I get away with "I'm glad he had the oysters to ask. I always wondered, but would never have asked.

-- rick K (rick_122@hotmail.com), August 03, 2001.

I don't remember anyone ever saying our species was anything but weird! About the goats. I notice a tendency these days to use them as pack animals, wonder if that has anything to do with breeding them larger? Just a thought. And back to the so-called weird--this is exactly what our life and survival is all about. Breeding animals and plants to fit our needs and wants. I don't think that is necessarily bad, where would we be without milkcows, quarter horses (and all the other wonderful breeds). poulty etc? Admittedly, the show ring in any species gets way away from suitability, and sometimes common sense but there you are back to our species again--- what common sense? As a species we have none. We breed critters for nothing but looks. We breed captive wild animals to "release" back into the "wild"--what wild? I'ts all gone! There is no where for these critters to survive so why are we breeding them and releasing them? Makes no sense. That said, I do love animals and love watching them and having them around. I've known quite a few dogs of just about every breed in this country and quite a few from other continents and enjoy quite a few of them. Bulldogs are adorable, cute, with great personalities-would I own one of these? No way! Re the German shepherds Colleen mentioned,she is right on, except it's not the topline that's the problem it's the angulation of femur to pelvis and extreme layback of shoulder. They've gone the way of the Collie, what was once a sturdy work animal is now useless. I have watched collies in herding trials and the few that are entered are a joke! Rottweilers and Pit bulls(yes, they herd!)do better and I have never seen a German Shepherd in a herding trial and they are supposed to be a herding dog! What's all this mean? don't know, but we are definetly weird! Fun discussion. Now about the aliens I saw in the back pasture.....LOL

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), August 03, 2001.

Hey I got that for you. My husband and I were in a small town in AR when as we were walking into a store we noticed a beatiful german shepard laying in the back of a pick-up, at least we thought so. Walking on by we realized that the dog was standing up his body was perfect for a german shepard except for his legs. The owner said his mom was a gs and his sire was a dachsund and he had his sires legs. It was hilarious.

-- Wynema Passmore (nemad_72039@yahoo.com), August 03, 2001.

I was going to comment about another female Lab seen lying down to cooperate with a male miniature Dachshound. Didn't know the people at all, don't know what the puppies looked like. Once saw a dog riding in the back of a truck that looked exactly like a St. Bernard, except that the color and hair coat were exactly that of an Irish Setter. I could guess what mom and dad were. We used to play guessing games as to what my brother's dog's parentage was...she had spaniel ears and coat, but short legs and a sort of long back -- corgi? Dachshound? other things made us think maybe some Lab, since they're so prevalent in the area.

Horses are a little bit different from dogs, in that they don't go in for the weirdly deformed heads and things that people have bred into dogs, however, there was an experiment done breeding Clydesdale stallions to Shetland mares (by AI) and Shetland stallions to Clydesdale mares (also AI). All mares delivered foals themselves, no caesarians, only normal human assistance. They found that the Shetland mares delivered Shetland sized foals, that hit the ground and started expanding at a fantastic rate until they were bigger than their mothers before they were a few weeks old. The Clydesdale mares gave birth to rather normal sized Clydesdale foals, perhaps a bit on the small size, but those foals never grew much and stayed small. Interesting how Nature provides for this possibility.

I will also say that I know of a number of full sized stallions who have naturally bred pony mares (altho this can be dangerous to the mare in many ways) to get show ponies, and another instance where a woman wanted a show pony and bred her 16 hh Saddlebred mare to a shetland stud -- they built a ramp for him to use. We were breeding a stallion that was 17 hh and didn't have a lot of problems until someone brought us an 18.1 hh mare. He couldn't reach, although he tried valiently. We eventually dug a hole and stood her in it.

However, I did see a donkey out in a pasture launch a surprise attack on a much larger mare from off top of a bank in the pasture.

-- julie f. (rumplefrogskin@excite.com), August 03, 2001.

AAAH HA HA HA HA! Kinda puts a whole new light on the expression "when donkeys fly".

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 03, 2001.

We have a 70 pound Great Beagleneese. Her mom was a Great Pyr. that had a Beagle for a neighbor.

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), August 03, 2001.

At the pet store where I work, I frequently ask people what kind of dog they have. The one that really had me in a stoop was a "Poo". Cockapoo? Pekapoo? No, just Poo. It was a Lab and Chihuahua. Okay, if you say so. How would they get Poo out of that? Said it looks like a miniature Lab.

A pet store in the mall near me frequently sells mixed puppies at top prices. Cocker/Beagle was the strangest.

-- Dee in NJ (gdgtur@goes.com), August 03, 2001.

Thank you all for sharing.

Patty, it is quite interesting what concepts energize people.

-- paul (primrose@centex.net), August 04, 2001.

I once heard that an English Pointer bred with an Irish Setter. Around christmas time they had a litter of Pointsetters.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 04, 2001.

Little Quacker, about 10 years ago I trained dogs with a lady who raised German Shepherds and had AKC certificates for herding with them. But they didn't look at all like the "modern" GSD, all slant and slinky. My wonderful GS died last October of kidney failure at age 10. When I can bear to replace him (not likely as his temperment and personality made him irreplaceable), you can bet I'll hunt up something with a lot of recent German import in his pedigree.

On the wierd crosses issue, we had a Beagle x Chow when I was a kid. The man who gave her to us raised Beagles to hunt rabbits and had a Chow watch dog. Obviously, he did more than watch.

I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. "When Donkeys FLY!"

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), August 04, 2001.

Hey Skip! You asked to be corrected, so consider it done! :)

I have reported you to the Pug Anti-Defamation League!

Me thinks you might be thinking of Shar-Peis, which are not "grotesque" either, but whose health has been severely compromised by incompetent and/or greedy breeders, like most breeds have from time to time .

Speaking as someone who has had Pugs in the family for 11 years, and has had all kinds of other dogs, they are as far from grotesque as one could get. There is no sweeeter,more lovable clown than a Pug, no better dog for young children. Well bred and cared for Pugs live long and healthy lives, and give birth to their pups by themselves , thank you very much!

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), August 04, 2001.

Great photo! I think maybe he was talking about Bulldogs and didn't know the difference perhaps? You have to admit though that as adorable as Pugs are, the brachycephalic breeds all have trouble with heat prostration, eye and nasal problems and all that wheezing and snoring! Then there is the entropian thing with the eyelashes. some of the pugs we saw were already finished(Made their 15 points for a Champion after their names for those that don't show)and there were still these built-in problems. But, any animal that is developed into a breed has built-in problems. It's a by product of going for type and without type you have no "breed". Aren't we lucky to have dogs?

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), August 04, 2001.

Hi Quacker,

I personally wouldnt buy showdog blood, for the reasons you stated. Theres a difference between selecting for type and selecting for one or two factors and ignoring the rest, which is what the showring ends up encouraging. No matter what the animal, same story. Whether its "beautiful" prize-winning sheep dumb as a post and incapable of lambing on their own, or perfect breed standard dogs who have every conceivable health problem, its basically from bad breeding (and commercial food).

So no, I dont believe the problems so rampant in brachycephalic breeds are necessarily a product of their type, but a result of poor quality breeders.

Glad you liked my photo! :)

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), August 04, 2001.

show breeders will ruin good dogs so fast. they destroy the working qualities they claim to admire. they will also make up fanciful stories about the origin of their breed. the worst part is these self centered dipwads aren't even able to understand the moral wrong of purposely breeding inherently unhealthy functionally incapable four legged frankensteins. off my soap box now

-- Pops (cindy556@devil-dog.com), August 04, 2001.

Don't put all show dogs in 1 pool please .I have Golden Ret, German Sheperds and acd"s that can not only be shown and win in the ring but can also do the job they where bred for .There are still good lines out there and good breeders.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 04, 2001.

Patti what's an acd?

-- teri (dnsmacbeth@aol.com), August 04, 2001.

yes the sub. of crosses remindes me of dad people would brag that thier dog/cow/horse... was a ----- or a cross of----+------ .dad would often coment that the closest it came would be if its mother was scared by one.iv seen so called crosses that probably dont get even that close .by the way we have a chow/beagle cross looks a lot like a corgy. knew some people who had a shepard mix were trying to rent an apt. when the dog subj came up the land lord asked what kind of dog mabey he would alow it...its a cross uhhhhh cockapoo mabey i think.... we all laughed saaid more like a crock of poo wait till the landlord sees it LOL.speeking of crosses my chickens have crossed this year using them as general purpose and didnt seperate the breeds have some of the polish and my fryers i hatched have some realy strange topnots

-- george darby (windwillow@fuse.net), August 05, 2001.

Patty Buying AKC dogs is like picking apples off the ground. you can reasonably expect to find a good one here and there and you might even luck into a good bunch but most of them are pretty rotten. in fact my vet is getting himself, two civilian employees and one enlisted registered as foundation stock for a rare european breed. you have obviously lucked into a good bunch now don't let anyone mess them up.

-- Pops (cindy556@devil-dog.com), August 05, 2001.

To answer the ACD question, it means Australian Cattle Dog or AuCanCo for short. These are great dogs and I own one. He is a good working dog(and more important will "do" just about anything I want him to which makes him a great companion) and comes from stock that are accomplished in the show ring and at working. I admire the breeders out there of dogs that also use the dogs for the work they were bred for and there's lots of those. I see lots of duel champions in lots of breeds and I think getting a good dog means seeking out a responsible breeder. If you want specific traits in a dog you need to find a breed that is bred for those traits. That's what selective breeding is all about whether it's goats, cows, horses or ducks you're breeding. Without breed type you don't have a "breed". If you need a dog for herding you need a herding breed, not some poodle cross. If you need a retriever for serious work, that's what you need to go after, some little half beagle, half champion fence jumper, isn't going to do the job. There are some jobs that just a mutt won't do although there are lots of wonderful crosses out there. Dogs are great! We are lucky to live in a country where we have all these breeds to select from and all the good commercial foods available, and all these great forums to have fun sharing our views. How do people in countries like China survive?

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), August 05, 2001.

I have American Staffordshire Terriers, I breed and I show on average every other weekend. My dogs are in homes, both pet and show, across the country. You are wrong in saying most show breeders cause health and temperament problems. We health check or dogs for genetic disease and spay/neuter those that don't pass. I never make money over the year and I also rescue on top of it all. I will also take any of my dogs back at any time in their lives. ITS THE BACKYARD BREEDERS THAT DO IT FOR MONEY THAT CAUSE MOST OF THE PROBLEMS! This includes purebreds and the small mixes like peke a poos, she-poss, etc. They do no health checks, breed heat cycle after heat cycle, sell pups a 5-6weeks of age...etc. and I can go on. They are almost as bad as puppy mills. These folks let bitches die rather than get vet assistance if there are whelping problems. Believe me, I have seen it first hand. I can tell you true stories....

BTW, It is common for bitches in season to be shown in the conformation ring, but not in obedience. I just showed two inseason bitches this last weekend in LaCrosse Wi. In the case of the St Bernard bitch, that owner did absolutely nothing wrong, it is the fault of the smaller dogs owner for not keeping him under proper control. And there is a morning after pill for mis-mating.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), August 06, 2001.

Re the Staffordshires, after being a Vet Tech most all of my working life I NEVER had a moments worry about this breed or the American Pit Bull when we had one come in the clinic. These were always sweet dogs. If we made a house call on a breeder of any of the bull and terrier breeds just didn't have a worry. Now other breeds were a different story! Yes, a responsible breeder makes all the difference. And by the way I just loved the "donkey and his flying leap!" :)

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), August 06, 2001.

The two dogs that were "given" to us recently (dropped off behind the house) have been tentatively identified as shepard mixes. One is very shepard-y and the other is, well, not. She is yellow-labby, with spotted nose spaniel-y bits, and has some shepard hair characteristics. We took them out for their first big trip this week- end (PA and back - we live in NC) and they were the hit of the dog walking set. ANyone that asked got our new, standard answer - we don't try to figure it out, we just tell the kind folks that they're a local breed!

My hubby said that some of the people looked vaguely disappointed when they found out that the dogs weren't "a breed" of some sort. Pooh, I said. They're disappointed alright - disappointed because they know that they can never hope to have a dog just like ours, because they are unique! Poor folks!

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), August 07, 2001.

Yep not any money to be made if you do it right .TRy hip,eye and heart clearances .If it don't pass it don't get bred.Try putting 2 years into a dog and have it flunk , it happens.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 07, 2001.

Not only can all breeds mate, but can with 2 different sires.

Our Australian Shepard mix, had 2 sires. When she was 8 mo. old she was in heat and we had her tied in the yard. Not good enough. When she whelped, 8 puppies, half were with a St. Bernard and the other, black lab. Only one still birth but the puppies that had the St. Bernard sire already had enormous paws. Mother and puppies did just find.

-- Cordy (ckaylegian@aol.com), August 07, 2001.

Earthmamma, Pugs have to be my favorite dogs ever! I keep begging hubby to let me have one. had him worn down but then he saw an ad for a border collie cross in the paper from the shelter and that was that. We now have Blossom..a very un-border cross (LOL) and wouldn't aprt with her! She's a marvelous family dog but crappy with the animals...too submissive. I still wish for a pug some day though. I adored your picture and I think I have that same flooring in my mudroom! LOL

-- Alison in N.S. (aproteau@istar.ca), August 10, 2001.

Alison, glad you liked the picture of my little "Sputnik" and I hope you get your pug someday!

Dianne, I hope I didnt sound judgemental on a personal level; I realize there are many breeders out there who are good people and care deeply about their animals. I just personally have issues with the whole concept of ( except perhaps for the sponsor and advertisers who make a bundle off the breeders!)showing for anything other than performance. Animal beauty contests appear to me to be about as useful those for human beings. I know they are fun to participate in; my kids did some goat showing when they were young and I remember there was pleasure and excitement involved. (I also remember the heartache.......I'm not much of a believer in competition in any case,so take what I say with that in mind! :))

I watched what the showring did to the Collie over the years,for instance. My grandmother's Collie was an intelligent, healthy, good- natured, protector and worker on the farm. Remembering her and others I knew as a child, I tried to replicate that, only to end up owning top-dollar, prolific showring winning idiots with heads so narrow there no room left for a brain.Yes, a breeder can 'health check' for disease and birth defects or genetic tendencies, but as with the collies, who now have chronic eye problems along with the usual tendency of modern large breeds to hip dysplasia, the point is good genetics dont have these tendencies in the first place. Its because of overly narrow selection criteria that they are there in the first place (and commercial food which promotes too fast growth in large breeds, but don't get me started ! :)) Both my collies were sweet as can be (at least they didnt screw up the disposition) but dumb as a post. They came from different states; totally different breeding and 15 years apart in age,so it was no coincidence. They had no abilities available that should have lain latent within them for herding,or any other work.,even with profuse training. Apparently at some point someone deemed the border collie the only collie worth utilizing for this once common skill in all collies, and it was no longer selected for in the others.

I can think of dozens of such examples of breeds of dogs, and livestock, whose natural abilities, and use to humans has been compromised because of what was currently considered 'correct' in the showring. And yes, I have heard the arguements in defense of conformation standards, particularly with livestock, and I have found them to be a crock. I've had many a goat in my day,and the expensive, show-ring-blood, ribbon-winning does gave not a drop more milk, (in fact often less), had no fewer health problems (in fact.........well,you know what I'm gonna say). That is my experience anyway........

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or slander anyones'motivation;its just my take on showing.

Blessings

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), August 10, 2001.

Earthmama , did you get a dog out of showlines , working lines? If it is strictly show lines you got what you paid for .A person needs to look for a dog from lines with what they intend to use the dog for .You CAN have correct type and brains in 1 package .If looking for a smart dog look for one thats parents have obedience or agility titles on them , hunting look for hunting titles , herding you guessed it herding titles.There are many good people that can not only show in breed but also excell in one of the others.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 10, 2001.

Ok, I never thought I would stoop so low as to actually BUY a pricey dog. But the other evening Hubby stopped as a surprise on the way home from church to see about a little dog... we DID end up buying her.

She's half Shi-Tzu, half Pickenese (sp? :P ) That little thing only weighs 10 lbs and is cute as a button. Very laid-back, too. 8 yr old daughter has adopted it as her very own, and sleeps with it at night. It has fulfilled a deep psychological need for her, as the lowest on the totem pole around here. As she used to whine; "Mom, I dont have anyone to boss. Daddy gets to boss you, You get to boss Manfred, and Manfred bosses me all the time. I dont have anyone I get to boss. It just ISNT FAIR!" LOL

Well, now she gets to boss Fufu.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 11, 2001.

While on vacation a few years ago we met a beautiful puppy that the vet referred to as a bassador. He was a solid shiny black coat with the identical body of a bassett hound. An oops between a black lab female and a male bassett. They say she was gotten while she was taking a nap. Sounds just like a man,(ha!ha!). But he was as beautiful of a dog as I had ever seen, and your Shitzkenese is also a beautiful little girl. My brother's heart is owned by a Pickenese, and mine by 2 Mini Dauchshund girls.

-- TL Tucker (tucra59@hotmail.com), December 28, 2001.

Indeed, airedoodle is a funny name for a breed. But I have one. He's got his poodle mother's coat and sweet temperment and his father's face and sense of humor. Doubtful that the AKC would ever recognize this hybrid - but most of the breeds today were once considered mixed breeds or mutts.

-- bob Timm (roberttimm@aol.com), March 10, 2002.

I have 4 dogs a full bred chihuahua and shihtzu, and then i have a cockapoo who is the most adorable, loving and smartest pups i have ever had. Plus to top things off my shihtzu has just delivered 2 pups, and the chihuahua fathered them. We are planning to keep the little boi who is white and cream colored. Pure breds can be good dogs but mixed breeds are just as good. I love them all the same, but theres just somethign about my cockapoo, next to humans shes the best companion any person could ask for.

-- mikey G (mikeyjustdoit4u@aol.com), May 05, 2002.

What do you get when you cross a crockadile with a Shi-Tzu?

-- Just Duckie (Duck@spazmail.com), May 05, 2002.