I have 2 dogs that have puppies. One set will be 4 weeks old Tuesday and the other ones will be 2 weeks old Wednesday. Today I saw the mother of the 4 week old puppies kill one of the other puppies. I also found another one dead. Do you have any idea why she would kill the other dogs puppies? The 'killer' dog is the more dominant one and she is half shetland sheepdog and half chow. The other dog is half german shepherd / half siberian husky. Even though I didn't know what I was going to do with 14 puppies, it still makes me sad and angry that my dog did this.

-- Jonathan (spades_31080@yahoo.com), August 11, 2001

Answers

you answered your own question,, "The 'killer' dog is the more dominant one " Its all part or natural selection, the bigggest, strongest,, fastest survuve. And all mothers dont want thir babies to have competition. Shes just elemination the "competition"

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), August 11, 2001.

Sorry to hear about your puppies. I would get your dogs spayed ASAP, the world doesn't need 14 more puppies!

-- Leslie in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), August 11, 2001.

Thanks for your answers. I just wonder why she hadn't kill them earlier, and I forgot to mention the one I found dead was with the 'killers' puppies. I plan on getting them both spayed, they surprised me. One is about 10 months old now and the other 9 months.

-- Jonathan (spades_31080@yahoo.com), August 11, 2001.

Sorry Jonathan, but you have just given me the excuse to write about an incident which occurred here in Tampa a few weeks ago, which has greatly distressed me. I wasn't going to post it here, but you have convinced me to speak out as a reminder to all pet owners who have not already spayed/nuetered their animals. Our county's Animal Control dept was called out to a property north of Tampa in July. It had been reported that there were a large number of starving animals on the property and no humans to look after them. Now, I missed the initial news reports on this incident because I was out of town for a couple of weeks. When I got home I read an article in the paper which said that there were OVER 70 ANIMALS residing at the property. No one was there to feed, water, vaccinate, medicate, worm, nueter, etc. Apparently they were all strays that the property owner had taken in and was then unable to care for. The animals were in such poor shape that over FORTY of them had to be euthenized immediately. My neighbor told me that one of them was a Great Dane which had broken it's leg 3 MONTHS AGO- everyone know what GANGRENE is? That dog was destroyed. The remaining animals were taken to the animal shelter, but were in such poor shape that they could not be put up for adoption right away. The animal shelter put out an appeal for foster parents because the animals need more TLC than they can get at the shelter. My nephews and I volunteered to take in 2 of the dogs, which I now have at my house. These dogs are so nice that I wish I could keep them. I can't, because I go back to work in a few weeks, so once I get them healthy enough that they can survive spaying/nuetering and heartworm treatments they will go back to the shelter. Both of these dogs have been, literally, STARVED, nearly to death. I have to feed them 4 times a day because their stomachs were so shrunken from lack of food that they can't eat a full meal at one time. They have sores and cuts which were never treated, heartworms, etc. The male had some kind of fungus on his feet which must have been awful, because although the fungus was treated his feet are still so sore that he can hardly walk in my SAND yard. Can't imagine what the poor thing would feel like if someone in town had taken him and tried to walk him on the sidewalk. I'm getting a little carried away here, sorry, but this is upsetting. My point is- why let your bitches have litters of puppies when you obviously can't care for them properly? You have no homes for these puppies, so they are obviously unwanted. I think that there are PLENTY of other unwanted puppies already crowding the shelters as it is, so why create more? Please, please, Jonathan and anyone else who reads this- please have your animals spayed and nuetered. The cost to spay/nueter a dog is certainly LESS than the cost to have all those puppies taken to the vet for their first shots- you ARE planning to give them their shots, right? Plus you will have to feed them till you find homes for them, which is an additional cost. Do the math yourself, then PLEASE get those dogs to a clinic asap, before they get bred again. The world does not need any more unwanted puppies. If you feel compelled to own more dogs go adopt some from your local animal shelter- I'll bet they have plenty to choose from. And I hope you'll get busy and find homes for your surviving puppies, so that they don't wind up at the shelter, too, or worse, end up as strays who might suffer as the dogs in this story have. Gee, hope I've made my point.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 11, 2001.

I am an animal lover along with the rest of you. And I personally agree that pets should be spayed/neutered. However, I have to say that I get so sick and tired of people ranting and raving on the subject! I think the animal rights people (PETA especially) go WAY too far. As for the person who took in all those strays and then neglected them - that's a horrible crime, and I hope they are justly punished. But to liken Jonathan, or any dog owner who doesn't have their pet spayed/neutered, to someone like that animal abuser is completely uncalled for. Jonathan, I'm so sorry you've had this bad experience with your dogs, and I hope you find loving homes for the remaining puppies. As for me TELLING you to get your dogs spayed - I'll never do it. It's your choice, and God Bless!

-- David (bookboy@iwon.com), August 11, 2001.

David, maybe I did not state myself clearly enough. I was not accusing Jonathan of being abusive as the woman in my story was, but the point was that SHE wound up with so many animals because they were strays that no one else wanted. People like Jonathan, who do not spay/nueter their pets, nor keep their bitches confined when they are in heat, contribute to this problem by allowing more unwanted puppies to be born. Jonathan himself stated that he doesn't know what he is going to do with 14 puppies, and those puppies run the risk of winding up either as strays or in an animal shelter, and those puppies are the ones who will suffer from Jonathan's irresponsibility. I wish that I could quote some figures on the number of unwanted animals that are euthenized in this country annually, but I can't because I don't have them handy. I do remember that several years ago when I lived in Dallas our county there euthenized TENS of THOUSANDS of dogs every year, and more cats. Not hundreds, not thousands, but 10's of 1000's. And if the thought of animals suffering needlessly wasn't enough to incite my anger and disgust a look at the county's BUDGET for dealing with this problem would do it, as all the money for the shelters and animal control comes from the taxpayers. I take care of any animals I own and I RESENT having to help foot the bill for people who do not. I just hope that Jonathan can find good homes for his puppies, so they don't suffer. Personally, I would not know how to begin to find homes for 14 mutts which resulted from unplanned pregnancies- hope he has a clue, but I'm not betting on it.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 11, 2001.

Please, folks, go back and read Jonathan's second post. First, note the ages of the two dogs mentioned--one 10 months, the other 9. It's really easy to have a young female slip a cycle past you when you have a normal busy life. He did say that they surprised him. Second, he plans to get them spayed.

As far as the woman with so many dogs, I agree that it's a crime to have any animal and not take care of it. Cut her some slack as she was trying to do a kindness to these animals--it obviously got past her ability to care for them and she didn't take the proper steps to deal with the situation. Yeah, I know about good intentions--the road to Hell is paved with them. Before anyone jumps my case, please know that I support the spay/neuter program and make donations whenever possible to 2 local privately funded animal rescue societies. One deals with cats and dogs and the other with horses, goats, cats, dogs. Right now they are caring for a cougar for the state department of conservation until a court case concerning it is settled.

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), August 11, 2001.

I think the last numbers I read for cats and dogs euthanized in this country was between 8 and 10 million. That's not taking into account the number that die from abuse, neglect, other animals, sickness, etc. I am NOT a PETA member but I truly believe in respect for the creatures we have life and death control over. These numbers represent a HUGE amount of suffering. I feel very strongly that we need to take care of our animals and our children. Two very lacking facets in this so called enlightened age.

I cannot say that I have never had an unexpected litter of kittens. It has been years and I learned quickly. The expotential increase in population is astounding and expensive. I just had our last "throwaway" kitty spayed. Out of the thirteen here, most of them were strays, a result of people not caring. I keep saying I hope I never find a throwaway baby.

It's off the subject of the original post, sorry. My condolences to you for having such a bad experience. Can the dogs be kept apart? I do not have any personal experience with female dogs doing what you describe, I do with female cats and I wonder if the animals that do this have a problem with their breeding. The cats I have seen do a similar thing were in a barn where they weren't taken care of well and they were very inbred.

Well, on a lighter note, enjoy those puppies. They must be cute as buttons and full of life!

-- TA B (burnash@gisco.net), August 11, 2001.

Elizabeth, it's your snotty self-righteous attitude that bothers me. Jonathan writes in with a question and a sad problem, and he gets blasted for having dogs with puppies - MUTTS at that! Personally, I prefer mutts because they're much healthier and cheaper than purebreds. And personally, I have gotten the vast majority of my pets from shelters. HOWEVER, that is MY choice, and not one that should be forced on anyone else. I agree with the idea that pets should be spayed/neutered, I just don't agree with the militant, hateful approach I've seen so many people take with this mindset.

-- David (bookboy@iwon.com), August 11, 2001.

I usually stay away from the posts that get nasty but (I'll regret this) maybe if we had had the personal experiences that it sounds like Elizabeth has had, we would be very outspoken, maybe to the point of being taken the wrong way by some. When one has seen suffering up close and personal on any level it tends to shade one's perspective. Kind of like an accident victim of a drunk driver really speaking out about driving under the influence.

-- TA B (burnash@gisco.net), August 11, 2001.

Well, Johnathon, you got more than you bargained for didn't you? LOL I hope this does make you think more about keeping your dogs under tighter security. If a dog could get to your bitches to breed them, then your females weren't being confined properly. Even after you do get them spayed you should still get on the ball and confine your dogs. I hope you are not one of those who lets them out to run around unsupervised. Lets hope not. :-) I completely understand the emotional stand of some of the above posts. I've been a Vet Tech all my working life and let me tell you, the things we see....So now, are you going to find responsible homes for those puppies? Get all thier puppy shots? Deworm them? Socialize them so they won't wind up in a shelter somewhere? Teach them to be comfortable in the car? Start puppy obedience? Last week, fancy free...now you are beset by all this! A lesson well learned I bet! LOL Good Luck. :)

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), August 11, 2001.

Instead of euthanizing all these massive numbers of dogs why don't we ship them to Asia where they'd appreciate the food and then it wouldn't cost taxpayers money? I'm not trying to make light of the situation either. Maybe that is a revolting idea to some people but to others so is eating snails, frog legs, squid and crabs.

-- Phil Abole (user1000@hotbot.com), August 12, 2001.

A very sweet dog will get snarly towards other dogs when she has pups sometimes. Usually it's only when they are tiny, but maybe your girl is just being a turd. I would separate them. It's probably the Chow in her.

You can get the puppy wormer at the feed mill, Happy Jack, or Liquid Panacure, from a vet, to dose yourself. It's very reasonable. I worm mine starting at 2 wks, then 3,4,6 and 8. The puppy shots you can get at the feed store also. Mine cost 1.69 each, 7-way puppy shots. If the puppy shots you can buy have Lypto in them, don't give them till the pups are 8 wks. Without Lypto can be given at 6 wks. If your older pups get runny poo, give them some cottage cheese.

Email me if you have any questions. I'm sorry some folks got so preachy here and just didn't help you understand. I know it hurts to loose an animal you are taking care of, but it just happens sometimes. You didn't know she would act that way. Kiss them pups for me!

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), August 12, 2001.

yes i have seen it happen before jill not only killed but ate sherrys pups this was 20 years ago and it apears to be a domonance thing. usualy most people dont have more than 1 breeding bitch at a time or there would be more experience with this. oh and by the way my bitches are spayed ,at least the ones i have at this time. The biggest problem is everyone wants a puppy but they are not so eager to get a grown dog they forget that it is a 8+ year comitment.and its not just dogs people get all kinds of pets with little thought . we have gotten many cast off pets over the years when we were raising rabbits it was a constant revolving door free with the cage and often feed too was once paid 10 $ to take one it was placed as a childs pet later.my best breeder buck when i raised lops was a childs pet untill the kid developed alergies ,they hated to give him up but that was a good reason most just get tired of what they have ,my parakeet was thretened with being fed to a snake a week after the people bought it 75$ and they were tired of it in a week and she is a nice bird ,i wouldnt want 1 realy but the kids did and i have to admit i enjoy her.i think i have too many dogs myself (Expnsive to feed even with home mahe dog food) but other people remark well if they lived in the country they would have 20 dogs ! my god why?i fall over our 5 constantly they are more than enough and each has its job they are not just pets.

-- george darby (windwillow@fuse.net), August 12, 2001.

To you folks talking about strays. Around here we just shoot them, thats just the way it is. There isn't a animal shelter for over 40 miles. Nobody is this area will drive 40 miles + to a shelter and then pay somebody to take a animal.

A lot of 'good' people will take animals they no longer want or can care for and drop them off in these rural mountain hollows. Most of us already have all the animals we want or need. It may sound cruel to some of you, but I find it crueler for a dog to starve to death if it can't feed itself.

-- Uriah (Uriahdeath2@netscape.net), August 12, 2001.

Some people use the argument that spaying or neutering their dog or cat isn't "natural" or that they want them to have a litter to "fullfill" their lives first. To those people I say "Watch the Learning Channel". You'll discover that in the wild, only the alpha (and maybe the beta) pair breed. The rest are CHEMICALLY spayed by the phermones given off by the lead pair, which supress the fertility of the rest of the pack. As is already noted, pups of "underdogs" will often be killed by the dominant duo if born. Since in any healthy pet situation YOU are the Alpha dog (or cat) it is actually more natural that the animal be spayed.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), August 12, 2001.

The reason we "animal rights nuts" get so angry about this issue is because people are so dense about it. The "please neuter your pets" approach doesn't work...no one thinks we're talking about THEM. Or they think that their one little litter couldn't possibly contribute to the problem. Or that their particular dog or cat is just so unique and wonderful that it should be allowed to reproduce. Appealing to folks' common sense just doesn't work, since there are so few people who actually have it. That's why we have to legislate & penalize & campaign for neutering laws, and also why we go ballistic when we come across yet another case of unplanned & unwanted puppies or kittens. It just gets so tiresome, having to deal not only with the animals themselves, but the endless parade of folks who just can't get a clue. I'm going to say this really slow for the benefit of people who have missed the message thus far: NEUTER YOUR CATS & DOGS AT 6 MONTHS OLD...NO EXCEPTIONS. In some more progressive areas, you might even find a vet who neuters earlier. I've had them done as early as 8 weeks. DON'T wait for their first heat, DON'T assume that litter mates won't breed, DON'T figure it's your neighbor's responsibility to neuter his male so that you can leave your female intact, and DON'T justify breeding because your kids like kittens. NEUTER YOUR PET AT AGE 6 MONTHS, PERIOD. Otherwise, you deserve all the insults and anger that are directed at you by those of us who deal with the overpopulation issue on a daily basis.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), August 12, 2001.

Great post Shannon, and with all animal shelters spay/neutering pups at 8 weeks, certainly wouldn't be hard to find a vet or shelter to do it for you that early. I would like to see all pups born having microchips placed under their ears. This way if your pup/dog ends up in a shelter we can scan the chips, and give the original breeder a call. If you breed them you should be responsible for them. Breeding any animal that is not part of the food chain, meaning if you won't eat them than don't breed them, should have regulations, because people aren't responsible enough to regulate themselves. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 12, 2001.

Probably shooting them is the kindest thing you can do in a situation like that. I can personally tell you I RESENT being put in the position where I have to make that kind of decision. Through the years I have had sick animals wander in, chicken killing dogs, mean as nails cats, don't have the money to care for what I have already, etc., etc. I have had to put away a few and I HATED IT! Just to respect someone's "right" not to have their animal spayed or neutered. It has been my experience they DON'T get it and will just pass the problem on! (I believe one post used the word dense.) (My soapbox is getting higher - sorry.) I guess the point many of us are trying to make, and it has been very clearly stated, is spay and neuter because often the animals get out of control and "infringe" on those that DO care.

-- TAB (burnash@gisco.net), August 12, 2001.

Little quacker, sometimes it takes a lot to keep the males away from a female in heat.

Apparently my then 10+ year old, arthritic, blind in one eye near blind in the other, toothless, terrier-poodle mix managed to get out of my yard (when we were living in Puerto Rico) and bred the neighbor's pedigreed Golden Lab through a chain link fence with a concrete skirt.

I had no clue this had happened. He was in when I went to work, he was in when I got home. Later I put hardware cloth on the wrought iron metal gate to keep one of the other dogs in, never had a clue he'd been out - until their daughter told my son what had happened.

As for dogs going into heat unexpectedly - it happened to me. My Basenji-god-knows-what-else mix went in to heat, got out (she is Houdini), and had every stray in Fajardo after her, and that's a lot - a neighbor told me she must have had 20 males after her. She got scared, ran out into the street, and got hit, I'm told by another neighbor that it was the guy across the street who hit her and according to her it sure looked like he did it on purpose. He was a wife-beating, child-abusing asshole who's most recent victims had just run off on him, guess he thought he'd take his anger out on my dog.

Then she holed up under some brush and cried until I got home. Leg broken in three places, she has a metal plate now, she is my $2000 stray. The guy who hit her had the collossal temerity to come across the street when I got home and was trying to get her out of there so I could get her to a vet and threaten to kill her because the noise was bothering him. I didn't know at that point that he was the one who hit her or things might have gone a little differently. At any rate, I turned around and looked at him and told him "Look, I'm not your last girlfriend and I'm not her 6 year old either. Maybe you can get away with pounding on them, but if you try it with me, you'd better make damn sure you kill me the first time." He turned absolutely white and practically ran off. Never spoke to me again. Which suited me just fine.

This dog really was Houdini. Twenty-five pound dog, 15 lb cast on her leg - she climbed the 6' chain link fence at the vets and got out and was waiting for me when I came to get her. This was AFTER she had escaped from two other pens the vet had her in. Houdini.

As for spaying them before their first heat - nuh-uh. No caring vet would do such a thing. It screws up their hormonal system badly enough to spay them at all, if you do it before they've cycled at least once you're shortening their life and decreasing their future level of health. You just have to watch them, and hope you catch them. And not be too squeamish to have them spayed even if they've bred. It's easier with dogs. With cats, if you can keep them inside you can handle it. If they're outside cats, watch them closely and spay them as soon as the first heat has passed.

Since being caught off-guard that one time, I've been successful in catching the signs since. But, it does happen, no matter how careful you are.

Rusty never has been spayed. She never will be. She only goes into heat once a year anyway (that's a Basenji trait) so its easy enough to keep her in when its "her time". Since being hit by the car she's never been as healthy as I would like, so I'm not putting her through the trauma of a spaying. The rest of my animals are all spay/neutered except for the newest additions to the tribe - one kitten, one male American Eskimo dog. The kitten will get spayed after her first heat, but MacBeth is on a lead so he can get neutered the next time they have the neutering "sale", half off in February. Actually, I hope they take it ALL off, only for half price ... LOL!

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 12, 2001.

Shannon, I'm going to say this real slow so you can understand it:

DO NOT NEUTER YOUR CATS OR DOGS UNTIL THE VET TELLS YOU IT IS SAFE!

This is ALWAYS after the first heat. No competent, caring vet would do it any sooner just because some animal rights nutcase thinks its necessary.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 12, 2001.

hey David i learned the hard way all dogs not purposely being kept for breeding should be spayed or neutered. i am definitely not an animal rights nut (check my woodchuck poison post) but i have come to believe breeders should be liscensed at about $5000 a year for show and $100 a year for working dogs with $2000 per litter fine of unliscensed litters and a $2000 per puppy fine for anyone but liscensed shelter killing illegally bred pups to include abusing pregnant bitches for that purpose. notice i didn't say to mandate spay and neuter by law but these guidelines if enforced would eliminate a lot backyard breeders, accidental breeders and maybe put some of those whacked out show breeders on the right track. my $.02, which is worth about what you paid for it.

-- Pops (cindy556@devil-dog.com), August 12, 2001.

Sojourner, that was uncalled for. If you don't agree with some one, stating your veiws nicely is called a discussion. Attacking some one's veiws causes wars. Elizabeth and David settle down. Cindy in KY had the right idea: offering cost saving measures to make the puppies more adoptable. I have a part Boarder Collie which every one who sees her tells me I should breed her, but after thinking on this post and a very good article in our newspaper today {the article followed two German Shepards who went into a shelter; one had been socialized and cared for, and the other ignored by it former owner and the socialized one left and the closing told what happened to the scared, ignored one named Cinder, Cinder's time was up, minutes later, shelter workers led Cinder into the euthanasia room, muzzled him with a rope and injected him with a tranquilizer. The dog layed down and made final eye contact with a human. Technicians injected him with sodiam pentobarbital to stop his heart and lungs. One shelter worker cradled the dog and stroked him, no more scary days for you she said. In minutes Cinder was gone!}, Annie gets spayed Friday.

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), August 12, 2001.

Sojourner, I was very surprised to hear your advice regarding the best time to spay a female dog because I've always been told the opposite was true, that the surgery should be done before the first heat. I had two German Shepherds spayed at 4 months of age with no hormonal problems whatsoever. (They have since gone to doggy heaven after leading long full lives). Anyway, I did a search on the subject, looking for information to support your thinking, and not only did I not find any, I found a couple of places that associated that advice with "myths". So Jonathan and anyone else considering this surgery, your vet is the best source of information regarding the procedure.

-- Leslie A. (lesliea@home.com), August 12, 2001.

I once tried desperately hard to get a dog spayed before her first heat. (It was Rusty as a matter of fact, because I knew she was Houdini and I was scared to death that exactly what did happen would happen).

The vet refused. He explained why, but that was lo these many moons ago and I don't remember the full details anymore, but it was basically that if you spay before they are fully mature it causes health problems on down the road, and there is no way to tell if they are fully mature until they actually have a heat.

Now, you CANNOT (or at least should not) spay DURING heat, it causes excessive bleeding and slow healing. You have to wait until it's come and gone.

Since that time, every vet I've ever discussed it with has said the same thing - we won't spay until after the first heat.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 12, 2001.

Kathy - right back atcha.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 12, 2001.

How very odd. All the vets I have spoken with say spay before first heat. It's been years since I discussed WHY with any, so I can't say why they say that. However, both of my cats were spayed at 6 months, prior to going into heat, and one lived to almost 18 and the other to past 21. I wonder how long they would have lived if early spaying hadn't shortened their lives? And then there was our beagle from my childhood -- he never was neutered and died at age 10 .. . . you'd think he'd have lived longer . . .

-- Joy F [in So. Wisconsin] (CatFlunky@excite.com), August 13, 2001.

Dang! And all this time I'd thought me & Sojourner were on the same page! Peurto Rico has one of the worst stray/homeless dog problems in the world...I wouldn't put much stock in the opinion of those local vets. The reason for spaying before the first heat is to prevent that initial release of hormones into the dog's body; hormones that can eventually contribute to the development of certain cancers (especially mammary). The first heat normally occurs at age 6 months, and an animal can conceive from then on, which is why a responsible, knowledgeable pet-owner will spay beforehand. At shelters on the coasts, like California, neutering at 8 weeks is routine, so that all pets can be done before they leave the facility. Long term studies have proven that there are no detrimental effects from early neutering, and in fact there are health benefits (as mentioned earlier). Not to mention the benefit of fewer litters from people who "thought she was too young!" Sure, there are old-school vets who will say to wait til the first heat, but guess what? They're just plain old wrong. Ask a younger vet and you'll learn that that way of thinking is outdated. Sojourner, as articulate and bright as you are, it surprises me that you'd admit to keeping an un-neutered pet. How is it that you can be so hip, and yet so backward at the same time?

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), August 13, 2001.

I have had 5 different females spayed and by 3 different vets and they all advised to have it done before the first heat cycle, which we did. I feel Shannon is right on this. And it makes sense to help reduce the incidence of mammary tissue tumours. As I posted earlier, we lost one to this and its a sad experience to go through when we could have prevented it by spaying earlier on.

-- Kate henderson (kate@sheepyvalley.com), August 13, 2001.

Spay at 8 weeks, spay before heat, spay during heat, spay them while they are bred, but get them spayed! Hows that? ;) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 13, 2001.

What a lively post this turned into!

I have had an animal spayed while in heat, there was a chance she'd been bred. The vet said it was riskier but could be done and it was. A hormone shot can be given to animal that inadvertnently gets bred, too. Causes the animal to abort.

Not all vets will do the early spay/neuter but it is gaining in popularity. We don't give a second thought about castrating, say piglets, at an early age.

Jonathan, if you are still following your post, let us know how you have made out. This has been like a dinner table conversation with a large group of people. It went in many different directions. That's probably why we all like this forum.

-- TA B (burnash@gisco.net), August 13, 2001.

Someone seems to have forgotten what the question was here. He ask for help on why a 'mother' was killing the other mothers pups. And if you read on further he mentions that one of the pups were in with hers. That seems to be the problem. You need to seperate these two mothers and their pups until older. Maybe the pup crawled into the wrong nest, tried to suck and she knew it wasn't hers. Just nature taking it's course. Where are located? We need a few outside dogs. Not the German Shep pups though--had one of those--chicken killer!

-- (stephanie.wilkerson@experian.com), August 13, 2001.