Ok.This is probably a real dumb question but it's something I've been wondering about.. what dogs should not be neutered or spayed? I know lots of people say all pets should be but if they all were there would be no more puppies which would eventually mean no more dogs. and I have also heard that working dogs should be "fixed so they will focus on thier jobs. So, which dogs should be left for breeding? PLEASE don't tell me only show champions should be bred, breeding show dogs has messed up a lot of breeds in my opinion.

-- Ben Dowell (kreelan@aol.com), August 12, 2001

Answers

Response to spay/nueter question

P.E.T.A. and these types want ALL critters fixed, including the 'champions,' since they don't want humans to have any pets. Personally, I think it should be the decision of the owner.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), August 12, 2001.

Response to spay/nueter question

Good question, Ben. My philosophy is that mixed breed dogs should be spayed/neutered-period-and a good portion of the purebreds. I agree that the "champions" are not the best gene pool for good working stock. We currently have both registered Great Pyrenees and a spayed mutt. I'm very careful about my bitches when they are in season and don't breed unless I want a litter of puppies. Translate that to I have enough buyers offering good homes before I breed. It's also important that the breeder look hard at his animals, to be sure he's not continuing problems like displasia, entropion, etc. Sadly, it's called using good sense and it's getting rarer (too much inbreeding?) I follow the same procedure with my goats. All crossbred bucks go into a freezer, most of the purebred bucks and a good number of does that don't meet my criteria go the same route. I don't sell every kid that hits the ground as a milker or a breeding buck, but rather as meat. It's more humane to the animal in the long run as we have a number of people in our area who believe goat tying (girls' version of calf roping) and training cutting horses with goats is an acceptable use. My husband used to work with a woman whose father trained cutting horses. His trainees got to rest but his goats didn't. He killed a number by chasing them until they dropped of overheating. Not to open another kettle of worms....

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), August 12, 2001.

Response to spay/nueter question

I have never heard "working dogs should be fixed so they will focus on their jobs". Mine isn't, and he's all business when we work the goats or calves. He lives to work the animals and help me.

Working dog breeds, like the Border, both parents should have the working instinct in them, to breed them, it should come natural. (and of course all the other all around qualities). The instinct will kick in somewhere between 7 and 12 months old, it's really neat to see. But, not all Borders (or other working breeds) work. You must see them work the stock.

Working Border Collie owners won't have anything to do with an AKC Border. And no one is allowed to register our pups AKC either. That's an entirely different breed of Border Collie, for show. I would say it depends on what kind of dog you have in mind.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), August 12, 2001.

Response to spay/nueter question

Unless any animal proves itself of outstanding intelligence and temperament and ability, it should be spayed/neutered, so you don't perpetuate undesirable characteristics of whatever type animal you have. This is called eugenics, to improve the bloodlines of the animal.

Millions and millions of household pets are killed every day because unresponsible pet owners are too ignorant to have non-breeding quality pets spayed/neutered.

Don't be part of the problem here, unless you have good reason to breed your dog or cat, have them "fixed" by 6 months of age.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), August 12, 2001.

Annie's answer was by far the best in my opinion. I've worked at an animal shelter for 18 years, and MILLIONS of unwanted animals are put to sleep every day, INCLUDING purebreds. Every week, we have pure Rottweilers and German Shepherds sitting here inthe shelter UNWANTED yet breeders keep breeding. These dogs are euthanized. Did you know that for EVERY purebred puppy born, 2 dogs (purebred or mix) are euthanized at a shelter somewhere? I am 100 percent against dog and cat breeding because of this statistic alone. Right this minute, we have a PURE Bull Mastiff in the shelter. This dog as a "puppy" is worth over a thousand dollars!!!!Yet people are still breeding and people are still paying big bucks and purebreds in shelters still sit there unwanted. PLEASE spay neuter your animals. If not for this reason, then for the FACT that your animal will live a longer healthier life avoiding reproductive cancers that are almost eliminated completely by spaying and neutering. Thank you!!!!

-- michele rae padgett (michelesmelodyfarm@yahoo.com), August 12, 2001.

I have to get in on this one.....not only is it best to help control animal population...but cancers are a higher threat to unspayed/unbred females. Also less marking/straying around for the males, and females in heat aern't too fun either. It seems to me that spay/neutering is the responsible thing to do if the animal is indeed a pet & cared for.

-- Pam (pamandmatt@earthlink.net), August 12, 2001.

Well Ben, It would take a course in genetics to explain this and another class on common sense. You've had some excellant answers and this question can best be addressed by saying that every single dog and cat should be spayed UNLESS the owner has the knowledge and common sense to be striving to improve the breed they are working with and, as mentioned above, knows there is a ready list of responsible future puppy/kitten owners. As for the blanket condemnation of "show dogs", it just isn't so. In order to have a good working dog(or any breed)you need to have not just the drive to do the job, but be physically and mentally sound also. This is what the show ring strives to do, right along with socializing. I know a lot of "duel champions" in, not only the working group, but sporting, hounds, and the other groups too! Watching a little Dachshund or other 'varmit" dog "go to ground" after prey and doing the jobs they were meant to do is a great deal of fun and satifaction for the owners and the dogs. And many of these dogs are AKC Champions. My dog is out of duel champions and he is sound in body and mind. He will tackle anything I want him to do, Herding, Agility, Tracking, Retrieving or just hiking or swimming. There are always unscrupulous breeders(after all, there are dishonest car dealers etc too) and ignorant people around who don't have the first clue(and won't learn) how to go out and find a reputable breeder to purchase from. I see a lot of border collies here and many of them are pathetic in body, although they have the drive to work. Now I know that there are some breeders who know enough to breed for soundness too, but there is no standard to measure layback of shoulder, strength and balance, without something to measure it against, Like other dogs of the same breed and a breed standard. So, as long as there's ignorance, there's gonna be breeders to take advantage of it. It's the American Way! What a country! Hope you got your answer. I know we all had fun trying to address it. :)

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), August 12, 2001.

If you love your dog and want him/her to have a long healthy life, get them neutered. Its not just the breeding or puppies, but a health issue. Unspayed females can develope ovarian/mammary tissue cancers and males can get prostate problems. I know this from experience. We lost one border collie female to ovarian cancer and nearly lost our 2 males to enlarged prostates. We were able to save the males with emergency castrations, but it would have been far less costly and traumatic to have had them done as puppies. As far as propagating a breed, every recognized purebred has ended up in a shelter and many of the purebreds have rescue groups to try and save some. To me, this is not a valid reason to breed more dogs. In the sheep business, as far as the Great Pyrenees and other guarding dogs go, a neutered one is far more effective than a female in heat or an intact male looking for one.

-- Kate henderson (kate@sheepyvalley.com), August 12, 2001.

Quacker if the AKC bred for working ability then there wouldn't be two types of pointers, setters, greyhounds etc. Also Dalmations would be a competative breed at field trials, Boxers would be the the dominant breed of catch dog for hog hunters, and people who breed real working dogs wouldn't fight recognition. sorry but there is too much hard evidence for me to take anyone in the AKC seriously when they talk about the importance of working ability. in AKC registered breeds natural working ability is the exception not the rule. unfortunately for many breeds AKC dogs are the only ones available. if you want AKC dogs that work you have to look at recently recognized breeds that haven't been ruined yet. please don't take this as a personal attack it is just something i feel very strongly about.

-- Pops (cindy556@devil-dog.com), August 12, 2001.

Quacker: I was not "condeming" anything, I was expressing my own opinion which is kinda what I thought this forum was for. Whether you choose to agree with me or not is up to you. Obviously you don't, and thats fine. Opinions are like belly buttons.. everybody's got one. But I think you misunderstood what I was saying and that was my fault for using my own definition of the term "show dog". According to me(again this is my own opinion),a "show dog" is a dog that is bred by someone who is only concerned with what the dog looks like and dosen't give a rat's a## whether it can do what the breed was intended to do or not. Unfortunately there are many such breeders out there. Getting a little off the subject, I remember a T.V. nes show, 20/20 I believe, that did a story several years ago and was basicly saying that the AKC is a joke and will register anything. I was 15 or 16 at the time so this would have been 7 or 8 years ago.. did anyone see the or does anyone remember the show I'm talking about??

-- Ben Dowell (Kreelan@aol.com), August 12, 2001.

Yes, Ben, I remember it. To test the AKC, they registered a litter of puppies -- it was actually a litter of kittens, who they claimed had been produced by a pair of dogs, one of which was neutered and the other of which was dead. They got the registration. The point was that there are no checks on the registration beyond checking the submitted pedigrees of the parents as having come from registered dogs. They then informed the AKC of what they had done, which elicited the harsh punishment of letter reprimanding them and a fine, something paltry like $100.

-- Joy F [in So. Wisconsin] (CatFlunky@excite.com), August 13, 2001.

Dang those neutered and dead dogs! Their unplanned breedings are cluttering up our country's animal shelters with litter of unwanted kittens.Something must be done about this situation.

-- Ben Dowell (kreelan@aol.com), August 13, 2001.

I posted some time ago with my opinion on spay/neuter and got nasty email from someone telling me I should just keep my opinions to myself. Apparently he didn't feel that he should be so constrained, however.

AKC registry is easily abused by unscrupulous people, but then, so are any other registries. The last issue I got of Appaloosa Horse News had two pages, small type, three colums across of people who had been banned from registering or showing due to breaking the Association's rules.

As amply pointed out already, anyone who isn't willing at any time in a dog's life to take that dog back and care for it, or rehome it probably should not be breeding a dog. If it's not worth enough for you to take back, it's not something that should be used for breeding.

We'll never be without dogs, there aren't enough people who do spay/neuter their animals. The question is how many unsuitable, ill- bred, unwanted, abandoned dogs will have to be destroyed because of humans who don't know what they are doing or simply don't care.

-- julie f. (rumplefrogskin@excite.com), August 13, 2001.

There are some dogs that should ALWAYS be fixed. They are 1. Ones with genetic defects such as hips, eyes, or retained testicles. 2. Any dog you don't plan to breed. Health problems are greatly reduced, and "accidents" are eliminated.

Personally, (and I'm sure I'll get flamed for this) I think the vast majority of dogs should be in catagory 2, whether their owners put them there or not. If you do decide to breed your dog, make sure that you line up plenty of buyers/good homes BEFORE you breed it.

-- Steve - TX (steve.beckman@compaq.com), August 13, 2001.

Julie, off the subject a bit, do you have apps? We do, love 'em dearly. Maybe we should start a new post.

There's lots of info and opinions about spaying/neutering on another post about a dog killing another's puppy. I was on my soapbox there.

Basically, most of its been said. At 8 to 10 million animals euthanized in this country alone, to say nothing of the others that don't make the statistics, SPAY/NEUTER! PLEASE!!

-- TAB (burnash@gisco.net), August 13, 2001.

To answer your question, TAB, I have one mare who is half Appaloosa, out of a Appendix QH mare. Her mom was turned out in a pasture with 4 yearling colts, because they were 'too young' to do anything about the mares in the pasture. Wrong. The new owner of the pregnant mare didn't want to be bothered with a foal, wanted to send it off to the local mink farm immediately at birth so he could work the mare. I worked a deal with him, and the filly that hit the ground was mine.

That good deed has been a mixed bag -- she's unregisterable, she didn't come into her colour (feeble as it is) until she was 6, and reflecting the lack of planning in the breeding, she is unspectacular to say the least, and requires an intermediate to advanced rider. It makes it difficult to pair her up with anyone since she didn't turn out very big, and she's only mediocrely talented.

Needless to say, she's not ever going to be bred!!

-- julie f. (rumplefrogskin@excite.com), August 14, 2001.

Julie, if thye colts are registered Apps and the QH mare is registered too, you could CPO your horse but it doesn't sound like that is really necessay. The whol breed association thing could get me on a soapbox.

Along the line of this thread though.The idea of CAREFULLY selecting what is bred applies to anything as far as I am concerned. We have a mare that has some slight problems with her confirmation. Two trainers have basically said, 'Sure, she'd be great to breed.' Well, they important opinions have been of the two vets we have talked with who both discouraged the idea. Believe me I wish we could breed her, we might as well have a gelding. But, we won't. The other mare we have is a proven brood mare and she has produced some beautiful babies. We have one of her fillies now. She is due again this coming spring. We bred her back to the same stallion.

The point being, be responsible. Many animals are not good breeding stock. Especially since there are so many unwanted dogs and cats out there.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

-- TAB (burnash@gisco.net), August 17, 2001.