I've scoured all the goat threads & did Ctrl F to search for anything mentioning multiple or extra teats & haven't seen any other references to this subject, so here we go.

I'd like to know your opinions on this subject: The Dilemma of Multiple Teats

1) IS it genetic? Please cite "evidence". (. . . for those of us who are scientifically-minded & like to read stuff like that.)

2) . . . or is it merely a biological anomoly due to mammary-focused breeding . . . & just something occasional & inevitable?

3) What about breeding multiple-teat animals? What are the chances of it being passed on?

Thanks in advance for your time & opinions.

Regards, Sarah - Goat Newbie in MI

-- Sarah Sanders (chilechile@hotmail.com), August 12, 2001

Answers

Response to Multiple teat/breeding opinions wanted

It is big time heritable. Breed a doe with extra teats to a buck with a family of only two teats, and some of the kids of about each group will have inherited the dams extra teats. The kiss of death in dairy goat breeding. There are big time bloodlines in Nubian that carry this including one of the most used old men in Nubians who is touted to himself had extra teats. There is also an old Utah moved to Texas LaMancha bloodline with them. We do not have them in our Nubians, though had some in the past with our LaManchas. My way of dealing with heritable traits, extra teats, parrot mouth, bite faults in general is to get rid of the bloodline. If you are really breeding Boers for meat and not breeding stock or show animals than this makes little difference as long as some of the teats are functioning :) Yikes it is disgusting to look at! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 12, 2001.

Response to Multiple teat/breeding opinions wanted

Vicki pretty much explained it as it is with multible teats. i agree, cull the lines, well.. dairy that is. I have a friend who recently got a nice Alpine doeling and discovered 3 teats. Sure is ugly, she sent me the pic. a few yrs ago there was this big debate on chevontalk about 3-4 teated Boers and showing and registering. thats why i study lines, need to know.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), August 12, 2001.

Response to Multiple teat/breeding opinions wanted

As an aside, it seems strange to me that goats, who occasionally (maybe even frequently) have triplets and even quadruplets, just have two teats, whereas cows have four teats, and is it even possible for a cow to have quads??? Just very interesting to me to contemplate why a cow would need four.

-- Elizabeth in E TX (kimprice@peoplescom.net), August 13, 2001.

Hi Elizabeth, remember also that goats only have two parts (halves) to their udder, so one spigot for each milk producing half, cows have quarters, with one teat per producing quarter. Now extra teats can have orifices and pull milk from the side. Extra teats can also be blind, the calf or kid is sucking on nothing, and enough meals off a blind teat and you have a weak dead young-un! Extra teats also make the udder more prone to mastitis. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 13, 2001.

Sarah,

Vicki is right, multiple teats in a dairy goat breed needs to be culled IF you plan on showing or selling goats. IF you are keeping them for your own use such as milking and eating so what!

There is one breed where multiple teats is accepted with the exception of 'fish teats' (one teat spliting at the end with two orfices think of a fish tail) and that is the Boer Goat. I know that many fainters also have more then one teat though a trait they are trying to cull out of the breed.

When one of my boers kids, I am usually there, I go over to gender check and count teats...oh darn! only 2!!! the more she has the easier for her to nurse more kids!

In time you will find that people will try to bread multiple teats out of this breed too I am afraid.

Probably the best place to start your mutiple teat research is at the Boer Goat sites. Many of the breeders have done extensive research on just this subject.

-- westbrook (westbrook_farms@yahoo.com), August 13, 2001.

While Vicki and the others have expressed what I'd consider to be the general conscensis on this subject...thought I'd add my two cents as well ;)... This is one of the "gray areas" of genetics. While there is nothing absolute on teat deformities (and supernumery, or extra teats ARE deformities), it's widely understood that it's a recessive gene that must be carried by both parents in order to be exhibited in the offspring. A kid can receive the carrier recessive gene from one parent and not express the condition, or a cross between two carrier parents can produce some kids with deformities and some without, so it's not a simple recessive. There's also been some research and lots of discussion among breeders that environmental and nutritional factors play a role, including mycotoxins/pesticides found in feed. Also there's been discussion about close line breeding intensifying the trait. Bottom line, at least for me, is that there is no way to prove that an animal doesn't carry any recessive trait such as this, only that it does. Having said that, my opinion is that teat deformities are a major fault and I would consider culling, and no longer breeding the animals that are producing this trait. Why intensify and pass on this fault? IMO you'd be doing the breed a disfavor. Just my (lengthy) opinion... :)patty Prairie Oak Miniatures http://www.minifarm.com/prairie_oak http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Littlegoats

-- Patty (littlegoats@wi.rr.com), August 13, 2001.

I want to clarify that I wasn't giving an opinion about the number of teats in goats vs cows, just idly remarking about how odd it seems that cows have four when they hardly ever even have twins! I am totally new to goats and know nothing whatever of cows, so I apologize if I confused the issue! I was intrigued and just jumped right in the conversation:o)

-- Elizabeth in E TX (kimprice@peoplescom.net), August 13, 2001.

There is a fairly easy way to determine whether or not an animal is carrying a recessive gene. Simply breed the animal in question to others that DO have the trait. If even one offspring shows the recessive trait, both parents have it. For instance, let's say that I have a few does who have the normal number of teats and are beautiful, productive animals. But, at times they have produced kids with three or more teats. I'm buying a new buck and need to know if he is carrying the recessive gene, which the does are already carrying. If he is, the kids would have a 25% chance of having three teats and an additional 50% of the kids would be carriers for the recessive gene. If he's bred to everyone, and one of the kids has three teats, it could mean some significant financial losses since I would cull any new carriers, meaning all the kids! The solution is to breed this new buck to a few does that have three teats. If the trait really is recessive, and the buck isn't carrying that gene, then none of the kids will have three teats even though their dams do. if even one kid has three teats (though about half would if he is a carrier), then the buck has it too and it would be better to get rid of him. Discovering if a doe has the trait is a little harder since she cannot have as many progeny at a time compared to the buck.

-- Rebekah (daniel@itss.net), August 13, 2001.

........except that I would never keep and/or breed a doe with extras in the first place... :)patty Prairie Oak Miniatures http://www.minifarm.com/prairie_oak http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Littlegoats

-- Patty (littlegoats@wi.rr.com), August 13, 2001.

Elizabeth; In response to your question about a cow having quads" Yes! Because I have a picture out of an old newspaper. Dated June 17, 1952. "Two bull and two heifers born unattended under a tree in a pasture on the C.A. Sprague farm near Michigan City, Indiana. Veterinarians report that not only is such a multiple birth unusual, but that it is also unusual for all to survive without medical attention." I can make copies of this picture for anyone who wants one just email me with your info.

-- vicky (bullride99@msn.com), August 13, 2001.

Boer goats not dairy goats.

http://www.psyber.com/~macgoats/#TEATS COMPARISONS

-- westbrook (westbrook_farms@yahoo.com), August 14, 2001.

Wow, thanks for all your responses, private & public. This is exactly what I wanted: all viewpoints, so I can make an informed decision. I have a friend who's an ND breeder/show-er & she wants to give me a doeling w/ 3 teats. Excellent pedigree, but not show- worthy b/c of the 3 teats. She is of the school of thought that if you outbreed, there shouldn't be problems.

REBEKAH daniel@itss.net - please email me again! I wanted to discuss your response further, but my email was returned as undeliverable, saying your email address doesn't exist!

Thanks again, all! Sarah

-- Sarah Sanders (chilechile@hotmail.com), August 14, 2001.

Just as an isolated fact, interesting but not really giving anyone an answer:

Alexander Graham Bell (yes, that one) was a man of diverse interests. One thing he established was that, in a flock of sheep he had, multiple teats correlated strongly to multiple births. He more than doubled the average birth rate in his flock by selecting for multiple teats.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), August 14, 2001.