I decided to start a new thread on this subject because it is one that expanded from another person's post which really wasn't about this topic. I believe that every person that owns an intact bitch should be willng to take full responsibility for that dog and the puppies it produces. I am a great dane breeder. As a responsible breeder, I have it in every one of my puppy contracts that if for ANY reason (divorce, lost interest, dog got too big) throughout the entire lifetime of the puppy/dog you no longer can/want to keep the dog, it comes back to me. What this means is that, as a breeder, I am willing to take full responsibility for any puppy I produce for it's whole lifetime. I will take the dog back and find it a good home rather than having it dropped at a shelter or being placed in an unsafe home. I believe that this should be a legal requirement to be a breeder. People would quickly quit producing puppies if they could get hefty fines for not taking care of the puppies for the rest of their lives. I feel that if I created the creature I am responsible to see that it has a good life. Also, I have eight great danes that live in the house with me. Currently I have one intact male and three intact bitches. I have NEVER had an "accidental" breeding because I can recognize when my bitches are coming in season and I ensure that my male, or any other male, cannot get to them. As an owner of a bitch, we should all accept that responsibility. If we want to keep our dogs to breed then we should do it responsibly. "Accidental" breedings are careless dogowners pure and simple. Incidentally, it is not because I breed them every season either. I NEVER breed a bitch unless a year and a half has passed since the last litter. Currently, I have enough dogs to show so I have taken a hiatus from breeding for a couple of years. The bitches are still coming in season, but breedings are not taking place. I, too, have seen the results of cruel/negligent dog owners because we work with the great dane rescue in fostering puppies that they take in. I take dog ownership very seriously and wish others would as well. Although I support spaying/neutering if you don't want to breed (my older bitches and males have been fixed once I no longer wish to breed them which is usually at age six or seven) I also think the only way to stop producing unwanted puppies is to require all breeders, whether purebred or mixed, to pay an annual license fee to be breeders. Owners caught trying to sell or give away puppies without having a license to breed, should be given a hefty fine and all of the puppies taken from them so they cannot make any money on the litter. If this were enforced, people would be very quick to make sure their dog was fixed. The license fee could be very low ($10) because the intent is not to gouge the breeder but rather to have them make a conscious decision that they want to breed and to heavily penalize ($500 or more) those that plain don't even give their dogs a thought and let them breed willy nilly. I believe if a breeder's license with heavy fines for non-complience was implemented nation wide we would have a lot fewer unwanted litters. Just my passionate thoughts on the subject.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), August 14, 2001

Answers

I am in complete agreement with you, Colleen. I wish everyone had such a strong sense of personal responsibility for the animals they take on. I never breed animals, but I have the same stipulation in my adoption contracts, that the animals must either remain in the adoptive home or be returned to me. The thought of one of my "babies" ever being in limbo or homeless or in an unqualified home just puts fear into my heart!

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), August 14, 2001.

Colleen- I agree with you about the need for responsible breeding, but I get a headache just thinking about trying to implement any kind of regulations/permitting/fines, etc. And, if I were in charge of the world and had to choose which people would get to be pet owners, most people would fail to qualify! In an ideal world I would prohibit ANY breeding of any pet until EVERY animal shelter closed it's doors due to lack of business. There was a time in my life when I was involved with animal rescue and could quote statistics on the numbers of animals euthanized in shelters because no one wanted them. I can't do that now, but I know that the numbers are staggering. I wonder if it would not be cheaper and better in the long run if every community would offer free spay/nueter clinics for resident pet owners. I think that most communities probably spend more maintaining and staffing animal shelters, and that does not prevent a lot of the abuse and suffering that goes on. I also think that more effort needs to be made in education, possibly starting in the elementary schools. Sorry for rambling, but this subject makes my head spin. It is so depressing to me to think about the ignorance and cruelty that so many animals are subjected to.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 14, 2001.

I tell folks too that the pup will come back to me if they for some reason can not keep it. Only 2 or 3 times has the owners been transferred or the kids allergic or something like that.

Last year, one lady's husband was being transferred to Florida. She brought me the dog, and I had him placed before he even got here. The girl came and got him the next day. Well, a couple days later, the lady calls and wants her dog back! We were both crying on the phone, she couldn't do it. So, she called the girl and went and got her dog and she took him to Florida with her. I felt so bad for the girl, its easy to fall in love overnight with these dogs. Now I wait a few days before I let the dog leave my place. I'll find a home, but I say I might be getting one for placement, if I do, are you interested. And then I double check with the owner again. I don't ever want to have to do that again, take one away from someone who opened up their home to one.

There are several of us here who check the shelter and papers for Borders. And there is never a problem finding them a wonderful home. The Border Collies free in our papers are gone in a couple hours, but I call anyway just to be sure and leave them my number in case the person brings it back.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), August 14, 2001.

Elizabeth: hehe--maybe we could outlaw human breeding until orphanges closed for the same reason :)

-- Brendan K Callahan (Grinnell, IA) (sleeping@iowatelecom.net), August 14, 2001.

Brendan, I swear, I wish I knew the answer to that one.

Colleen- This morning a woman called to ask about my pet sitting services. She has 2 dogs and 4 cats. When I asked about vaccinations she told me that the cats are not up to date on their shots. Reason? The City of Tampa, where she lives, has imposed a 2-pet-per-household limit. This woman cannot (or at least, thinks she cannot) take her cats to get vaccinated because she says the vets are required to report all the rabies shots which they administer. So, we now have pet owners who are avoiding having their pets vaccinated in order to keep from being reported to the authorities, which is beyond stupid because she could take the cats somewhere else to be vaccinated; give a fake name and address; or buy the vaccine through the mail and administer it herself. Hope her poor cats don't get sick and suffer for it.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 14, 2001.

Colleen and Cindy, God bless you! You represent something extremely rare - ETHICAL DOG BREEDERS!

We live very close to the largest no-kill animal sanctuary in the country, Best Friends, here in So. Utah. My husband works there and I volunteer what little time I can spare after the 'day job' and taking care of our own 23 critters. I wish everybody who has not spayed or neutered their mixes or ever considered breeding their purebred because "it has papers" could see the physical and emotional condition most of these poor animals arrive at the Sanctuary - and many of them are obviously purebreds. I'll bet Shannon can agree with this wholeheartedly.

Cripes, "papers" don't mean squat - the AKC and just about every other registry out there will sell you "papers" for any purebred, even if it's riddled with congenital problems and doesn't even approach breed standards.

I love mutts, and I love purebreds. And I heartily disagree with those who would ban all dog breeding, but we really, truly need more regulation of breeders and puppymilling should be COMPLETELY outlawed. Here in Utah, Best Friends has spearheaded a program called "No More Homeless Pets" to eliminate the killing of unwanted companion animals. The main thrust of the program is spay/neuter, and it provides low-cost S/N services and vouchers, and public education about the pet over-population problem. It's slow going, but we're making a dent.

Maybe someday I'll be able to attend a dogshow again and not want to kill half the people there.

-- Jorja Hernandez (jorja@color-country.net), August 14, 2001.

Cindy, here's a story similar to yours. When I worked for a vet one of the clients brought in a gorgeous 2 yo German Shepherd bitch to be euthanized because they did not want her anymore. Well, I threw a fit and insisted that we not destroy the dog. I offered to keep her, so finally the vet got permission from the people for me to keep the dog. I brought her home and kept her for 2 weeks. The dog was perfect! No behavior problems, beautifully trained, got along with all other humans and pets in the house. We all fell in love with her. At the end of the 2 weeks the people called the vet to say that they wanted the dog back. Guess what? The vet made me give her back. I tried to convince him that the people did not deserve to have the dog, and pointed out that had I not intervened in the first place the dog would have been dead, all to no avail. Is it any wonder that I am so pessimistic!

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 14, 2001.

Standing Ovation Colleen!!! And Brendan, we all wish we could do something to help our own species, perhaps a Government run, low cost, spay and neuter clinic for Homo sapiens would be good? Start with getting those idiots out of the gene pool that lock their children in hot cars etc. etc. We don't have any control over that, this is a free country, but we can show some responsibility for the animals we create. Right on!

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), August 14, 2001.

Here in my area, any cat or dog that winds up at an animal shelter and is "eligible" for adoption is automatically spayed or neutered before it leaves the shelter. I have a purebred daschaund with papers etc. but we had him neutered due to saom early prostate problems we felt would only continue as he got older. I didn't want him to suffer unnecessarily and since I am a pet owner/lover and not a breeder, I knew in my heart if I ever did breed him, I wouldn't be able to give up any of his pups!! LOL I thought it best considering all circumstances, that we have him neutered.

For those of you that work with animal rescue organizations, I thank you for what you do to save and help the throw-away animals that irresponsble, cruel humans neglect and abandon. There are not enough of you to go around.

Having ANY kind of an animal whether livestock, pet, work etc. is an enormous responsibility and should not be taken lightly. These animals have no one but US to look out for their well being. Research ALL aspects of owning animals BEFORE you get them! If more folks did this, there would be far less animals doomed to an early death. Animals of all types can enrich our lives in many ways and all they ask for in return is our love.

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), August 14, 2001.

Dear Colleen, thats a nice idea and both of my mixed breed dogs have been sterilized but around here it cost between 80 and 120 dollars to do that most people here won't pay to have that done. I think that there needs to be a program that pays for this so people who can't afford it can have it done to their animals.

-- Wynema Passmore (nemad_72039@yahoo.com), August 14, 2001.

Oops, I forgot to mention that under my idea about hefty fines for breeders that don't have a license, the fines go towards offsetting the costs of spay/neuters for those owners that can't afford them. The money from the sale of the confiscated puppies goes to that fund as well. Also, the fines scale is graduated so that your first offense is $500 but subsequent offenses are even higher.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), August 14, 2001.

This is a pet-peeve of mine! Our society has became a "throw" away society! Some people don't take care of their animals, their children or their elderly! I know this is getting off track but we can't make someone have values, morals or common sense! Maybe, fines WOULD get their attention!

-- Debbie T in N.C. (rdtyner@mindspring.com), August 14, 2001.

i think we have enuff goverment now. why ask for more? as for fines??? now thats just silly, if you dont want to breed your dogs then dont, but lets get real here no fines will stop the unwanted puppy prob.

-- paul (wormfarmerone@yahoo.com), August 14, 2001.

yes breeders should be responsible to produce quality animals that can be placed in good homes BUT WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER ORWELLIAN BURICRATIC CORP TO REGULATE EVERY DOG next it will be cats then hamsters get a grip on life and educate people remember some of the people for more buracracy would want all dogs destroyed or tell you all of your preciouse show animals were not to thier standard and order them destroyed imediatly think of that when you call for more regulation . oh and to answere the question my bitch is spayed.

-- george darby (windwillow@fuse.net), August 14, 2001.

Seems to me we have been doing an awful lot of "educating" people about spaying and neutering for an awful lot of years (at least thirty that I can recall) but all that "education" doesn't seem to have put much of a dent in the overpopulation of dogs in this country. Check out some of the European countries that don't have an overpopulation of dogs and guess how they controlled it? Legislation. They are very tough on people being allowed to breed their dogs. Laws are enacted because people won't "do the right thing" on their own. Granted, the "right thing" is what the majority feels it is, but it is the only way to manage a society that does not want to take responsibility for its own behaviour. I,too, believe in a minimalist form of government but I am also realistic enough to recognize that laws have to be enacted to protect those that can't protect themselves such as children and animals and to force people to act civilized and accept responsibility for the decisions that they make in life.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), August 14, 2001.

Here is some food for thought. I just checked my county's animal control dept website. Last year (2000) we euthanized 29,756 animals. This is in ONE COUNTY, and only represents the number of animals euthanized at the shelter. It does not include figures from the Humane Society, private vet clinics, or any other organization. Pretty impressive.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 14, 2001.

I appreciate your sense of responsibility. I have five dogs--2 from friends/neighbors whose dogs got out at the "wrong" time, 1 just showed up at our house one day, 2 that friends/neighbors got from someone and then decided they didn't want them. I had another that died a few years ago that we got dumped on our property when he was a puppy and starving (it cost about $140 at the vet about 17 years ago) just to get him healthy again. Another I got many years ago (she died a few years back--she was 16) that was given to me by my aunt because her neighbor was beating the dog and not feeding her regularly. I picked up a lab someone threw out at the dump several years back--she was one of the best dogs I ever had. Yeah, I appreciate your sense of responsiblity. What were their throw aways, our my precious pets! We have a lab, collie, sheperd/lab mix, Eskimo Spitz, and lab mix. I love them all! It seems we always have 5 dogs around no matter what. Just for the record: The dog that I had for 16 years was never spayed, I kept her confined when she was in heat-- she never had pups--it wasn't that hard to do. I'm not much on the ideas of fines though; people are generally responsible or not.

-- Sharon (spangenberg@hovac.com), August 14, 2001.

Why should I pay for someone to have his or her dog spayed? How can a person properly care for a dog if they can't afford all the expenses that come along with one? What next, should we be fined so these people that can't afford to feed their dogs properly be able to provide them with 'Dog Food' Stamps? Welfare for Dogs!!! At the expense of others. Sounds like part of the Communist Manifesto to me.

"From each according to their ability to each according to their needs"

and confiscating puppies? Are you serious? Who will head up the "Puppy Rescue" that has now been created? And government run? And what about the puppies that no body wants? Do 'we the people' have to pay for them also? Dog Social Security Income (DSSI). Retirement homes for unwanted dogs!

And when THE BREEDERS give up and become fewer in number trying to comply with all the rules and regulations that you have now created, what stops the puppies from being secretly bred and sold on the Black Market that has now been created? This won't stop people from breeding and dumping puppies out in the street for who knows what reasons. Who will pay for the bureaucracy that has been created when there are too few breeders left to fine? Will there be added taxes to those of us that own property? Will sales tax also include another % to accommodate this and punish all? Or will this be done at a Federal or State level included in out income tax, the more you make the more you pay?

I can see it now…WAR ON DOGS! Billions spent to find and punish Black Marker breeders. We need your help! Call 1-800-SeeDogs and report anyone you suspect has an unregistered dog! We give rewards!

The licenses in our County went up. Why? So the County can microchip adopted dogs, which in turn can be tracked. Why can't the person doing the adopting pay for that? Why do I already pay in my licensing fees to dogs to be spayed?

IT ISN'T WORKING!!!!

Adding more penalties, punishment and laws aren't going to do anything more the punish those that try to comply. Those that comply charge a great deal for their dogs, have contracts, and screen prospective new owners and more?

The people you want to punish for all the dogs being bred are the people that got their puppies out of a shopping cart in front of Gag-Mart? Spur of the moment thoughts, people that give in to the kids pleas," please, please, please, I promise!!!!

But instead you want to go after those that "can afford it to help pay for those that can't"

These are the times I have to shake my head in disgust.

"Who is John Galt", Atlas Shrugged

-- LurkyLu (lurkylu@yahoo.com), August 15, 2001.

LurkyLu, I agree with you that more regulation is not the answer- look at all the other regs we already have that don't work. But as far as paying fees you are already paying to keep the shelters open, for animal control officers, for veterinary care for unwanted animals, etc. So, why not instead direct some of those tax dollars towards spay/neutering? I don't think there will ever be a time when ALL owners have their pets neutered, but a lot of them would and that would at least save a lot of animals from needless suffering.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 15, 2001.

Hi,,I too agree that pet owners and breeders should feel a strong responsibility for their pets and puppies, but I cringe at "imposed regulations on top of more regulations, to which there seems to be no end.

Here in W. Montana,,we do have free clinics (sometimes 2 x per year) for neuter and spay of dogs in our county. It is a wonderful provision and many people take advantage of it.

I am a responsible breeder of Poodles and starting Pomeranians. I love my puppies,,feel like they are part of family. So I care about what kind of home they go to.

Expecting a litter of tiny toy silver poodles soon, will offer some to loving homes. Am looking for a Silver Toy male Poodle to buy,,of different bloodlines,,,Anyone out there raise silver toy Poodles or white Pomeranians? Would love to hear from you.

Take care,,,Patsy

-- Patsy, MT (cozyhollow-gal@care2.com), October 28, 2001.