Out of respect for my family's privacy, I'm going undercover for this posting (no fair telling, Ken). I wouldn't post this here, except y'all are just about the only folks I have to lean on.

How do you know when your marriage has finally gotten to the point when it's better to put it out of its misery than to keep resucitating it? Over the past few months, I have gone from normal housewife-type to "how could he do this to me" zombie. No it's not other women, it's a combination of irresponsibility, untreated depression, drugs (not a lot, but enough), lies, all wrapped up with a big bow that says it's always somebody else's fault.

My once DH, while I was stupidly oblivious, either spent or lost close to $7000 that I had saved up for a downpayment on a house. He doesn't know which - he never bothered to look at the bank statements, even though the finances were his responsibility at the time. Maybe the money was stolen (a real possibility, I will have to check with the bank, if I ever get time), or maybe he just nickle-and-dimed it to death. The idea over the last year was for my income to go to savings and his to go for bills. Well, appearently, his depression was bad enough for him to not be working enough to pay the bills (he never said a word) and so he "borrowed" money from the account on a regular basis to cover his behind. (He still says he doesn't see how he could have spent the whole thing - I'm giving him the thinly stretched benefit of the doubt until I know one way of another). He panicked and lied about this when it became obvious that I had found an interesting property and was going to look into making a down payment if it worked out right. He says he was going to pay it back (damn right), but I can't make him understand that even if he had paid it back and I never knew, it would still have been wrong to do this. He just doesn't get that, although he understands that that's the way I feel about it.

He also let the bills lapse severely (rent hadn't been paid since MAY!!!), not to mention late credit card payments ("Is it my fault the post office is slow?" Uh, yes, if you don't allow for it - it's not like it got slow overnight). He has even argued that the companies not only made the late charges in error, but that they didn't appear on any of the statements that he saw, or he would have done something about it. I offered to get copies of the statements in question from the credit card office and he actually said, "well, of course it would be on them NOW, but it wasn't then" - as if the credit card company would actually go back and alter sveral statements just to cover their ass.

I don't know what to do. I thought I was married to one person and find that I am married to another, one that thinks that embezzling (although legally, as both names were on the accounts), deceiving, lying, and paranoid ass-covering are acceptable traits. He is now aware of how seriously he screwed up (he honestly didn't think I'd be this upset - after all it's just money. No, it's not the money, honey, it's the attitude that made it go bye-bye that I'm pissed about) Now, I can't trust him to be there for me, and us, later, should we go into a homesteading venture. I can't let him be in charge of anything now, because if it's vital, I'll always be afraid he'll blow it off or screw it up. I might as well be single for all that I can trust him to do, aside from menial labor (I could hire a hand for what it costs to feed, clothe and house him). He doesn't work regularly, even though he "tries" (How hard can it be - there are pages of suitable jobs in the want ads). Ah, yes, ther's that depression of his (medically diagnosed, but he's allergic to the drugs and the talking therepies don't help him much, although I'm suspecting it's because they all want him to quit smoking pot first)

But still - there's over ten years of marriage, a deeply seated comfort level, a hatred of becoming yet another divorce statistic, a dread fear of AIDS that makes me shudder at the thought of ever becoming intimate with another man (I'm allergic to latex, not to mention being loathe to get stung again), a personal commitment to marriage as an institution (even if it is a mental institution) and the fact that my family loves him to death and I would hate to ruin that for either of them.

Do I love him? Yes, I think. Am I just mad over the money? Well yes, I worked hard for that downpayment and it is the first time that I ever gotten that far ahead. Am I just mad, period, and will get over it? No telling, but I don't think so. Where do I draw the line between allowances and excuses re: his depression? How can I know if I'm going the right way? Please give me any and all advice you think would help - be as rough or as gentle as you personally feel is neccessary, I don't have the capacity to feel much more pain anyway. How do I know if it's over?

-- river of tears, no paddle (tooshy@nottelling.com), August 26, 2001

Answers

Response to How do you know when it's over? Need advice, comfort, slap in the face, whatever it takes

Dear River, the hard part is that you still love him, no matter what he did, or will do in the future, you will still love him. But just love does not make a marriage last or work, it is trust and shared responsibility that make it last forever. You have neither of these two things.

Your husband has a full cart of emotional baggage that you will never be able to empty, and it doesn't sound like he is able or willing to empty it either! Chronic pots smokers (I know several with the same problem) never get the gumption to do ANYTHING with their lives, pot is a major chemical depressant on the brain, they go through life in a smoke filled haze unable to see anything worth achieving past the dope screen.

Quit blaming yourself for anything other than staying with him any longer than you aready have, and get a divorce and move on with your life,, your life has great value on and of it's own, and life is too short to waste with someone undeserving of you.

One more thing, there are condoms made out of sheep gut, not latex, that are quite effective against AIDS, don't let that fear keep you in a failed marriage. There are good men still out there yet, don't despair!

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), August 26, 2001.

Response to How do you know when it's over? Need advice, comfort, slap in the face, whatever it takes

Dear River- I can't offer marital advice since I have never been married, but I can tell you something about depression. I have suffered from depression for many years, it runs in my family but I did not know that until a few years ago because we don't discuss things in my family that are unpleasant. It took me a long time to get diagnosed properly in part because I always believed that depression affected people who were unhappy about something in their lives and could not deal with it and so became depressed. I have always had a wonderful life, in spite of some tragic events that have occurred. I finally learned that in my case depression results from a lack of certain chemicals which my body simply does not produce. I was n medication, briefly, but opted to stop taking it mainly because the cost was exhorbitant and the stress of dealing with the medical community and trying to get my needs met only made the problem worse. It took a while, because for a long time I would suffer boughts of depression without even being aware of it- depression is insidious that way, it creeps up on me, stays for months or years, then is suddenly gone. I have now learned that oftentimes something will trigger the depression, and I can usually recognize the signs, so I can deal with it. But, there are many times when my depression is debilitating for long periods. I am so very fortunate that I have a great job at which I can make a lot of money in a short period of time, then not work for a while if I don't "feel" like it. I think that if I had to work at a regular 40 hour a week job and deal with politics on the job, the stress would be unbearable. Stress is one of the things that triggers my depression. Others are boredom (unfortunate because I have a low threshold for boredom anyway); lack of exercise; bad food and irregular meals (which I deal with a lot on the road); sitting inside buildings for 18 hours a day and not getting fresh air and sunshine (more bad work conditions), and caffeine and sugar consumption. Since I know the signs I can avoid a lot of situations which exacerbate my depression, which helps a lot. I neither drink, smoke, or use drugs, but I can tell you from what I have learned, all of these are very bad for someone who suffers from depression.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 26, 2001.

Response to How do you know when it's over? Need advice, comfort, slap in the face, whatever it takes

River, I forgot to ask if you have children, or if you want to have children in the future? If so, do you really want this man as an example for your children to follow as they grow and mature into adults?

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), August 26, 2001.

Response to How do you know when it's over? Need advice, comfort, slap in the face, whatever it takes

sorry, hit submit by mistake.

The way in which my depression manifests itself is that I find it enormously difficult to stay focused on anything, and I become very forgetful. It is not unusual for me to walk from one room to another in my house and by the time I reach the second room I have forgotten what I was after. I also find that I tend to want to sleep more than I would normally and I seem to crave stimulants like caffeine and sugar. I have a very difficult time motivating myself to do anything at these times, even if it is something I like to do. I have a hard time paying bills on time, and I do have plenty of money in my bank account, but it becomes impossible to focus on even a simple task like writing and mailing checks. Frequently I will write out my checks, then fail to get them in the mail without realizing it. I actually started making payments one month ahead of time so that I would have a cushion, since I was afraid I would miss a payment someday and my credit would be adversely affected. Sometimes I am amazed that I can work because my job requires me to be very meticulous about my paperwork. I think I can do it because I have done it for so long and am so good at it that I don't have to think that much about what I am doing.

I understand how angry and probably frightened you must be right now. What your husband has done is wrong, as he now knows. It might be that you are in a position where you have to reexamine your own needs and desires. I know that it seems impossible to trust him right now, but maybe what needs to happen is that you make some major changes in your life and remove some responsibilities from him for awhile- it may be that he finds himself overwhelmed but isn't really aware of it, or the reasons why. When a person suffers from depression they are often in a cloud and can't see things clearly. Unfortunately it sounds as if your husband really needs treatment, but it is up to him to get it, or let you help get it for him. He absolutely should not be smoking pot, or drinking, either. It would also help if you and he together could figure out what causes and/or exacerbates his depression and then try to eliminate as many triggers as possible. It might also help if you sought support for yourself, and that might help you better understand what he is going through. I can't say if your marriage is over or not, but in your shoes I would make every attempt possible to salvage my marriage. After all, you fell in love with this guy so he can't be all bad. And if he is really sick losing you would not help him much, although it sure would serve as a wake- up call! Just remember this- if his depression is as bad as it sounds, he may very well be telling the truth, as he knows it. He could easily have been dipping into your savings without realizing the enormity of what he was doing. When confronted it became immediately obvious, and he may have been scared and confused by the realization of what he has done. I know from experience that it is terribly frightening when you can't function normally, and don't understand why- kind of what Alzheimer's patient's experience. It is disorienting, and it is natural for sufferers to resort to extremes in order to deny what is happening and to try to maintain a sense of normalcy. So don't react too quickly here. If your husband has been diagnosed, as you say, then there has obviously been some attempt to get treatment. I don't know what drug he was on, but there are many other anti-depressants available and I would keep trying them in the hope that one of them will work. In addition, try to get your husband to eat good whole, healthy foods and stay away from junk food. Try to get him to exercise and work around the place, even if you have to exercise or work alongside him. Both of these activities stimulate the production of chemicals in the brain which act as anti depressants. And, adjust your household finances so that he no longer has access to the cash if he really can't handle it. Frequently a little push in the right direction is sufficient to interrupt a bought of depression- it might work for you. I hate to think that your marriage will end because of this. But realize one thing- you don't have to make a decision right now. Try to wait awhile and see if his condition improves- you can always break it off later on if you think it is inevitable. I know right now the financial loss seems staggering, but in one sense he is right, it is only money and it can be replaced. If he can get back on his feet again and go back to work, HE can be the one to replace it. Good luck to you, and I hope this works out positively for you.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), August 26, 2001.

Response to How do you know when it's over? Need advice, comfort, slap in the face, whatever it takes

First, and most important, take care of and protect yourself. Spend your time, energy (and money) on what you want and need. When you are right with yourself and your life, you will be able to choose the best path for your future.

You cannot fix or change him. Do not let his problems become your problems. Support him but do not let him drag you down too.

You are having a hard time now. Life has no easy answers and often it's most important lessons are the most painful.

-- Nancy (NAWoodward@lakewebs.net), August 26, 2001.

Response to How do you know when it's over? Need advice, comfort, slap in the face, whatever it takes

In the past, I have sought counseling when I needed to (I had a tough time the year that I got divorced, my dad died, I graduated from college, moved to a new town, and started a new career, all at approximately the same time...interesting, to say the least...)

There are agencies like United Way and others, or through your local church or synagogue, that can offer referrals. Sometimes it's good to get a professional opinion from somebody who is neutral. If you live out in the boonies, it's still worth the drive (I drove an hour+ each week to get somebody that I wanted to work with.) I have friends that are therapists, too, so I know that there are some good ones out there. They might refer you to some credit counselors if you think that might help, too.

You may not be able to help your marriage or your mate, but you may come out of the process stronger by sharing your stress/anger/grief with a pro.

Good luck to you.

-- sheepish (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), August 26, 2001.

Response to How do you know when it's over? Need advice, comfort, slap in the face, whatever it takes

I'm sitting here, very sad for you. I tried to put myself in your situation with my marriage of 22 years. Our relationship has been built on trust. Pure trust. Hubbys job used to take him away sometimes for a week at a time. He had an apartment in another city and I'd see him on weekends. God knows the lies we could have told each other. But, we both knew, as now,that if we couldn't infinately trust each other, our marriage would be over. We'd go on loving each other for a long time, but the bond would be broken. Depression is insidious. I know that from experience and so does my husband. It is no excuse for lying or anything else your husband has done. Right now,I'd like to slap your husband for hurting you so. Now, if you were my daughter, I'd tell you that you are a strong lady and you will overcome this. You will make the right decision that will protect yourself and your children if you have any. You will go on to build yourself a good life. God bless and I'll pray for you.

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), August 26, 2001.

Response to How do you know when it's over? Need advice, comfort, slap in the face, whatever it takes

Its sounds like there is some love left. If so then you need to fix the big problem. The depression and drugs issue. If you can fix this then the marriage part should be easier.

I would suggest a local agency for the depression, drugs. May be a local church for you river to help your while you deal with these issue.

if you cant get the depression issues resolved then its time to face the hard facts. Do you want to be with this person or not.

If you cant solve the depression issue then you have to make the descss

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), August 26, 2001.

Ann Landers seems to have sage advice. The primary question is "Am I better off with or without this guy?"

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 26, 2001.

Response to How do you know when it's over? Need advice, comfort, slap in the face, whatever it takes

Darn it, River, that's a tough situation. It sounds to me like his depression is the whole problem. Depression makes a person just plain not care about anything. Can't make themselves care even when they know they should. It is--absolute--living--Hell. Not to make light of what you are going through, I don't mean to do that at all, but if he were treated for it and responded well, would you still be thinking about getting out? If he had something like a year long bout of something you could get a handle on, like cancer or the like, would you be blaming him for his past actions the same way? If he was a nice guy for ten years and you can trace his actions to his depression, then I'd say you have a moral obligation to see him through this, just like you'd would feel like doing for any other more obvious illness. If he's been an SOB for most of those ten years, well, that's something else. Hope things come out OK for you, and take care of yourself in the meantime.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), August 26, 2001.

The last thing you have to worry about is AIDS. Just keep your pants on. You are much more in danger of contacting aids living with this jerk. What do you think he was doing while you thought he was working? I know how you don't want to put your family through the pain of a divorce but they don't have to live with him. Are THEY going to make up the $7000? No, and he isn't either. If you are in no physical danger you can 'plan' your get away. Open a new bank account. Start making plans on where you will go, what you will take, ect. You have been financially slapped around. What next? GO

-- Belle (gardenbelle@terraworld.net), August 26, 2001.

There is a very important difference between loving someone, forgiving them for an offense, and excusing their wrong behavior. Do you still love him? Can you forgive him? If the answer is yes to both questions that doesn't mean that you have to excuse his behavior. He is an addict, suffers from a mental/emotional disorder and has lost the ability to take responsibility for his own actions. You can't take responsibility for his actions. So what to do? This is a time for tough love and clearly spelled out boundaries which he may not cross. Are you in a community property state? If so, you both have equal rights to all assets that are part of the marital communtity (everything, probably, even if not in both names) and you both have equal responsibility for all debts incurred. You need to act now to protect yourself financially. Most states allow for legal separation. If you are unwilling to permanently end the marraige this is the way to go. In a separation you are still technically married, but there is a separation of finances. Get a P.O. Box in your own name and then your own bank accounts, credit cards accounts, etc. and insist that all statements, correspondence, etc. go only to the P.O. Box. Do this now to start getting a handle on the finances and to stop the loss of funds. Talk to a divorce attorney for legal advice on your rights and responsibilities in regard to a separation. One advantage of legal separation is that it can give him a chance to prove to you whether or not he is capable of permanently changing his behavior without exposing you to further loss.

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), August 26, 2001.

I don't feel I can give marital advice except my X husband was a chronic pot smoker, never did anything with his life, 5 wives, is now trying to draw S.S. disability. I'm wondering though if he didn't pay the bills or the rent, then where in the world did the money go to?????? Surely not all on pot, does he have a gambleing problem? If your gonna stay girl, just keep in mind you will have to be in control of all the finances and stuff, don't depend on him for much and you may not be to disapointed.

-- Carol in Tx (cwaldrop@peoplescom.net), August 26, 2001.

Well, 29 years ago my current husband, asked why I planned on staying with my now ex, and I told him I was unwilling to let 2 years of my life go down the drain. He said, so what do you think will happen in 10 years? He'll be the same, you can't accept it, but people never do change, and in 10 years you'll be looking at 10 years going down the drain. He was right. 10 years later, almost to the day, I divorced him for the same cheating/fiscal irresponsibility that had me considering ending the marriage 2 years into it.

If you feel that you can live with him without him changing, by all means stay with him. You can't make people change. Since he won't accept responsibility for any problem he has no motivation to change. Good luck.

-- Mitzi Giles (Egiles2@prodigy.net), August 26, 2001.

River, having only been married for 6 weeks I can't really give you any advice on that except to say I won't ever divorce my husband unless he cheats which is unlikely. (If he gets too bad I'll just live separately from him without divorcing him.) His first wife ran off with another man who had more money over ten years ago. He is still so hurt about it he wouldn't even consider doing that to me.

Some things I can suggest are-

-Get your own bank account NOW! Put ALL YOUR money in it.

-If you have credit cards in common, get your name off them or cancel them and get your own.

-Don't let him be responsible for any bills that really matter, you take care of them.

My hubby and I decided to keep all our finances separate so we would never have some of these problems. I'm also the one who saves more than he does. I have over 5 times what he has in the bank even though he makes twice as much as I do!

If you decide to stay you might just want to plan on being the main breadwinner and let him be the house hubby. He can learn to clean and do the grocery shopping and cook and such.

I have to somewhat disagree with Annie about the pot smoking thing. It effects everyone differently. I personally know numerous people who have smoked for decades, yet have built and run very successful businesses. Some of these folks are doctors even! Almost no one knows they smoke. The only reason I do is because I've known them since they were teenagers or twenty somethings.

I do agree with the folks who suggest that the depression is the main culprit here. When you are depressed it's hard to even get out of bed in the morning, let alone care about anything or anyone else. If your husband is supposed to be taking medication and won't you might try giving it to him secretly in his morning orange juice or something like that. Another thought is that sometimes a real crisis will motivate someone. Perhaps you could tell him your leaving if he doesn't shape up. Then start looking at apartment ads in the paper, pack up a few things,get your own accounts etc. When he sees you are serious it may help to bring him around.

Ill be thinking of you and good luck.

-- debra in ks (windfish@toto.net), August 26, 2001.

River, I'm so sorry for all the pain you're going through. The only bit of advice I can offer is to say that if there is no trust, there's no marriage. And no matter how much you might want the marriage to work, BOTH partners have to be 100% committed for the marriage to be a success. If your husband isn't willing to get help for his problems, I think you have to look out for yourself, and your kids if you have any, and move on to a happy, HEALTHY life.

God bless you! You and your family will be in my prayers.

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), August 26, 2001.

That he doesn't feel that it was wrong to use the savings in a deceptive way is a pretty huge deal. Skip gave you great advice on seperation and divorce and I would second him on it wholeheartedly. It'll be the hardest thing to do but life can be much better on the other side. Sometimes the hardest thing is the best thing. (I know whereof I speak). Don't make a final decision until you get over the worst of the initial anger and find some peace in yourself. We'll be thinking of you.

-- Susan (smtroxel@socket.net), August 26, 2001.

Yes smoking pot can contribute to depression - it makes one have no ambition for sure (having lived through the 60's and seeing friends that are now in their 50's and are still where they were 30+ years ago). There are new drugs on the market for depression, he certainly can't be allergic to all of them.

Last year DH and I nearly divorced after 15 years of marriage and several friends recommended I get a book called "Relationship Rescue" by Phillip McGraw. The first several chapters are working on yourself and what you want. They are tough and I cried a lot going through them, but it was worth it. We are still together, but I don't know yet if it will last, but now I am ready to be able to walk away if it doesn't.

As many others have said in one form or another - YOU cannot change HIM, so decide what you want out of life and in a relationship. If this ain't it, then adios amigo and what your family thinks is really of no consequence - you have to take care of you.

Good luck.

-- just me (none@this.time), August 26, 2001.

Daw gone it Ken you took my answer!

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), August 26, 2001.

Let me add since you post here alot, post a answer to your question [ that way people cant guess who you are] and it might give you some insight to look at it in a third party since.P>s the ones who get hurt the most in a situation like this is the kids, just ask any one who has grown up with a alcoholice or drug user.

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), August 26, 2001.

Dear river of tears,

I feel deeply for you. My marriage was once close to being over. I know the gut-wrenching agony of betrayal, the destruction of trust in the ONE person you placed the rest of your LIFE. I know, it hurts too deeply to express. But we survived, and we are now deeply in love again. It took years to regain the trust. But I am so glad we hung in there and worked it out with a good councillor.

Number one, you still love him. You probably are the only one who loves him right now. Think what a positive force that could be in his life right now, if used as a fulcrum for change.

Number two, You need a source for inner strength to hold you up while you stand on your own two feet alone. This hubby of yours is not able to be the strength to you that he is supposed to be. Therefore, you have to find an inner strength that puts a superhuman strength into your backbone, like a hickory stick, strong but with bendable grace. I suggest turning to God like you never have before. I have found His grace sufficient even for the agony of broken marital trust.

Number three, you need good council. I really recommend you read James Dobson's book, "Love Must be Tough." It was written for hard cases like yours, and gives an idea how to apply the pressure that provokes real change in your partner. I feel your situation may take staging a once and for all showdown- telling him that you are not going to put up with his act anymore. That you are going to move out until he makes a definate change. Outline exactly what he has to do to keep you. and then stick to your guns, and dont back down one iota. He really needs someone who loves him to MAKE him change. Read that book of James Dobson's! That is where I learned how to apply this kind of love that helps impossible people to change.

Best wishes, river. And I shall be praying for you, even though I dont know your name.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 26, 2001.

Hi, well I aint been married before, but im very sorry to hear what you spoke of.. I dont know if anyone has the answers to your problems but Im sure we can help you find them.

I Dont know for certain what makes a marrage work.. never being married kinda explains that one. But I suppose lots of Love for the person, not just love for love`s sake. Honesty, truth and commitment.

Dont fear becoming a divorce statistic, Marrage is in my view meant for life but thats an "Ideal" we dont live in a utopian society. You have to live for the moment and for yourself. Dont stand back and one day turn around and say i have watched my life pass me by.

There are nice blokes out there. Im sure of it. (Although i prefer women). Dont fear what ur family will think. Do they know? whats happened? I mean think about it, if you want to go on to homestead. You both must work towards it together, he isnt working and is a drain on your resources, Now i know this sounds harsh. But he isnt trying to help himself, you can only do so much.

So where to go from here???

The way i see it you have two "main" choices.

1) If he knows how much your hurt.. tell him. Lay down the law. Tell him you are very annoyed and that he has to get a job asap if this is going to work. Also You take control of the accounts. You get the bills and you get the pay packets. Talk to one another about what you want out of life. Make sure he wants the same as you. (There is no point flogging a dead horse). Dont feel dispondant about your financial situation. Make cuts in your out goings, and maximise ur incomings. Simple things like use less electricity and things like that. Inform your Hubby that the drugs must go. He has to kick the habit now rather than later. In some cases soft drugs can lead to harder drugs, which is where ur fear must be with AIDS and everything else. Inform your hubby hes got one more chance if thats what you wish to give him, to clean up his act. Dope is non addictive so if he says he cant then i think ya know why. Talk to one another about why he is depressed. And work together to get out of the rut. We all get depressed but we dont all turn to drugs and alcohol. You must work at it if you want it to work. But on the other hand it cant be all you, both sides must do there best to get it to work. PHONE THE BANK AND FIND OUT WHERE THE MONEY HAS GONE... PAY ALL THE BILLS U HAVE SO YOU DONT GET INTO MORE FINACIAL TROUBLE.

2) The alternative to the above is the rather more drastic version. Tell him its over, kick him out and divorce him. The way forward must be just that forward not looking backwards. You must go, out seek the life your after, there are thousands of blokes across the world and indeed who read this magazine who are charming fellows. Dont worry about the past. Your family, im positive will help you all the way. What are families for?? The money issue?? well look at it this way.. Again i would phone the bank and everything work out what went where and when and how much, and who allowed it too? (could be useful in a divorce case). But money.. to homestead, you can get there again. The key again is cut down on your out goings, and increase your incomings with maybe another part time job or over time, or whatever. If you want to homestead and cant find cheap land try Canada there are some good land prices up there cheaper than in the states. there is also a thing about the US govt giving land to people 20 acres or something. worth checking out! But the key to this option is moving on and making a new brighter future for you, dont fear the challanges life has, if you think of all of the fears and problems you will be 410 years old before you do anything. If you do it now see to make it work. Dont fear loneiness theres like i said loads of people in the forums and in the magazines and im sure near where you live your friends have friends, and theres other options like, dating agencies. But even so dont worry about that just yet. Work to better your life. and if it means kicking him then thats what you must do. If you feel hes betrayed you and u will never be able to trust him again. Then u must do what in your mind you know is right, but fear doing. You need to love the person for the marrage to work, but you need the trust and belief and honesty that comes with time.

So in short... There above are 2 main options.. Other people might have better ideas, some may have things to add to the above. But you must choose which path you must take. But remember your never to old to change the path you follow in life, thats why we aim for self sufficency or homesteading. The numbness of the pain will fade with time, but the damage is already done, you must decide whether the damage is capable of being repaired.

I wish you all the luck in the future, and i hope things work out, if you need to chat or whatever, feel free to contact me at my email address ok?

Dont forget, when things are really bad, just smile, it makes me feel better, when i do that.

Craig

-- Craig (ruskie@absolutevodka.fsnet.co.uk), August 26, 2001.

Dear River of tears. I was married to a big drinker. It caused him to get very depressed!! He would go through our account without a thought. He would buy beer with his last dollar when the baby needed food!! I used cloth diapers and breast feed but I did need baby food. I loved him and I stayed. We would save up 2,000. and the next thing I new it would be gone. The money and bills were the man's job he would say.Well I became a widow at 28 years old. I did not know who we owed money to because as he said it was his job. So I waited for the bills. Well after about 6 weeks I found out who I owed money to!! I owed it to 4 credit cards at about 20,000.oo yep that is right. He would use them at the bar and when it got ran up to where he could not pay it he would just get another one. By the time I got them and the late charges and what was owed it was right at 20,000.oo Thank god we had a small life insurance policy that I could pay them off with!! and a little left over to buy a car for the kids and I since he rolled the truck we had and totaled it and himself. I will not tell you to stay or leave that has to be your decission!! What I will tell you is that I met a man a year latter who loved my kids as his own. He did not have any kids. We talked about having kids together and he would say he did not want mine to think they were not good enough for him like he had to have his own, so we did not have one together but raised the two I had instead. He is a wonderful man a very good father. We lost our 17 year old daughter ( she killed herself over the lose of a boyfriend ) His greeving was worse than my own. People would say to him well she was just your step daughter tho right, and that would just tear him up. That was 3 years ago. Well this summer we married off our son. You never saw a man so proud of his boy. We got together when my son was 4 years old and he use to fall asleep on Verns chest watching football on sunday afternoons. Taught him to drive a car and how to respect a girl when he took her on a date. my second husband was in the Marine Corp for 20 years and would not take the bull sh&*% stuff teenagers can do. Both the kids were good kids. Went to church even tho we didn't. He would tell them as a grown up you can decide if you want to go or not but as a child you have to go learn the lessons god wants you to learn to be better grown ups. LOL They did not do durgs or drink. I mean he was a better father than I was a mother I would think. My point tho long and drawn out is. Life is what you make it. It dose go on and you make better choises. I am a big old country gal and if I can find a good man, and a life tho painful at times when you loose somone you love, have somone to hold me up till I am done falling apart and be my rock, you can find it to. Life is a hard and a long road to travel, find somone you can trust to fix a flat and not leave you stranded. Good Luck and God Bless.

-- Teresa (c3ranch@socket.net), August 26, 2001.

Ken took my answer too. Is this the guy that you can't live without? My ex-husband was an alcoholic & drug addict and had 13 jobs within our 8 year marriage. He forged my signature on our income tax returns, cashed in our life insurance policies, and got the maximum cash advances on our credit cards. After having the cops remove him from our home, his mom asked me "Can't you just try a little harder to make it work?". I dragged myself to Al-Anon and kept going there until it finally sank in that "I couldn't change him". I changed myself and my attitude toward life until finally he couldn't take living in a happy home anymore. The wonderful man that I am married to now is less than perfect, but so am I. It takes courage, but you're not alone.

-- Charleen (harperhill@eznet.net), August 26, 2001.

I don't think that I mentioned that many therapists will take your case on a sliding scale basis, and will charge you depending on what you are able to pay. Not all therapists charge $100+ an hour and live a life of luxury!!! In fact, I haven't heard of one yet! (Although I'm sure there's psychiatrists and psychologists who do!)

I was so broke, I'm surprized that anyone took me on! But I'm grateful that they did.

-- sheepish (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), August 26, 2001.

River--first of all, having been through a divorce, let me extend my sympathies on your situation. The emotional roller-coaster ain't fun.

Now down to the practical. GET A GOOD LAWYER--*NOW*. Not one that wants to go for his throat, but see if you can find a good one who can advise you from that impartial 3rd party perspective, and who can tell you how to protect yourself. Lawyers also know where to find counsellors who may be able to help if you want to try to SAVE the marriage. But the lawyer can tell you how to protect YOU and keep your financial records separate in case it comes down to a split. Too many people have the "big fight" and then go see the lawyer. That's where it becomes an emotional "get back at the other" battle, and it gets MESSY. You're at the stage of looking for advice, so it's already become serious in your mind. To save yourself a lot of heartache, start planning. Get YOUR affairs in order. Think about where you'll be if you're on your own. If you have a plan set out, and have talked to the lawyer, then when you lay down the law to hubby, you'll be prepared--and he'll see that you're serious. Also, being prepared will also make YOU calmer and more confident when it comes to dealing with the difficult spouse.

What concerns me here is the lying and cheating bit. Depression can be used as an excuse. I personally have a couple of friends who went through some REAL depression, but who still had enough consideration for spouses, family and friends not to take it out on them with inconsiderate behaviour. If he doesn't feel caring enough to be straight with you, then your marriage is one-sided, with you having to hold up all the support.

I guess the only ones who can decide whether a marriage is going to continue or not are the husband and wife themselves. You have to ask yourself REALISTICALLY where you see yourselves 2...5....10 years from now. Are you scared to go out on your own? Is that fear making you stay in relationship where you are being treated poorly and making you miserable? Have you looked at all avenues of getting help in trying to keep it together?

I wish all the best and good luck! And sending a (hug) for a bit of support!

-Chelsea

-- Chelsea (rmbehr@istar.ca), August 26, 2001.

Quit crying River of Tears and take control of your life. If you hadn't turned over your responsiblities (your money, your lively hood, your savings, your down payment) to him he couldn't have done this to you could he? I am sorry that this sounds harsh but this is exactly what most women do, then they are shocked and dismayed when this happens to, usually with a passel full of kids to take care of. Either with him or without him you have to accept responsiblity for this debt. Call the bank, ask for statements for the last year, get out all the bills, put them on the table and with him figure out this mess, because with him or without him you have to fix this. He surely didn't start this behavior of his overnight, you allowed it into your home, nobody can do anything to you that you do not allow them to, well not more than once. I would demand that he get counseling for his troubles, even without insurance this is possible as are mood altering drugs that will really help. If he won't get help than leave. If he has smoked pot from the beginning, and has been jobless or jobs now and then, since you met him, did you think he was going to change? Men usually scream from the beginning exactly who they are, we as women choose not to hear, think we will change them with our love and then complain when they don't. If you have grown as a person and he has not, this is the problem, all the other stuff you probably have ignored all along. Get honest with yourself! Then lay down the law! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 26, 2001.

How long have you been together? Are there any children? This would complicate things. Has he ever been violent, with you, any children, or past wives. If so you must co-ordinate leaving him (if you do) with friends or a protective agency. I can assure you it is not the drug alone. There are many successful people useing this. If he smokes all day every day then this would be a problem. CLOSE ALL JOINT ACCOUNTS AND OPEN NEW ONES. Ask to void all signature cards. I don't think I'd drag myself down hoping to rehab this guy. And forget his family's feelings. I knew a guy like this. Everyone loved him. He was lazy as anything at home. Whe she left her job, she got a lump sum of 12 grand. Uh-oh hubby got to it. When they got a home equity (his idea) and 123 uh-oh he got ahold of the check. This time she must have confronted him. I wish he had called her brother instead. I'm sorry this one doesn't have a happy ending.

-- me (me@notmail.com), August 26, 2001.

Thanks for all the shoulders. You can never have too many. To answer a few questions:

No children (thank God)

Yes, he has pretty much been like this our entire together life (a fact that I am increasingly becoming cognizant of, which is very depressing to me as a probable indicator of our theoretical future)

He won't try other depression drugs, because of the side effects the others had (either he's really scared of the side effects, or he's just resistant to treatment in an emotional way)

I am going to a therapist, who is going to try a little couples counselling (not her specialty) to see if she can help me (and us) figure out the next steps

Don't really know what good a lawyer would do me at this point. Nothing but bills to divide, other than the pets (this would be the real stickler)

Right now I'm in survival mode, as my therapist calls it, tunnel vision that only sees work and sleep, to catch up on the bills. We (my therapist and I) feel that I am probably hiding behind all the work in order to keep from having to deal with this, but we both also agree that it is so new and raw that that is probably a good thing

Will try the Dr. Phil thing, and others. Good news is that hubby is actually a fan of Dr. Phil and respects him highly (too much time at home during Oprah hours, I guess), so maybe it'll help

All the accounts and cards are now switched over to me alone. I feel like his mother. I don't want a 30-something child. This is part of the problem with staying - I am not willing to spoonfeed a life to anyone because they can't or won't deal with it themselves. If he is not capable of living functionally, I don't know where that leaves me. At least if it were Altzeimer's I could legally take over his care and make him take his meds!

My biggest fear at this moment is that all of this stress is going to strike me down and then where will I be(already suffering from canker sores - never had before, had to look them up, breakouts, headaches, teeth grinding, and a tiredness that no amount of sleep touches). I am very susceptible to even low levels of stress due to inheritance of family anxiety disorder (thanks Mom). I feel like I'm running across a tightrope strung over a deep gorge and being chased by a very agile (and remarkably focussed) man-eating lion. Just the other day, I felt a deep restlessness, then realized that I had the very hard to restrain urge to take a baseball bat to a house full of breakable objects and leave nothing that needed a bigger box than what my toaster came in to be carried out in. This can't be healthy.

-- river of tears, no paddle (tooshy@nottelling.com), August 27, 2001.

I just spent 4 hours this weekend talking to an old friend who was recently in a situation very similiar to yours. Her friends have had to finally resort to threats to run the guy off because she doesn't have the strength to say no to him, even after he wiped her savings out and ran her into 30k debt in 1 years time. Even now, she still wonders if she should take the piece of trash loser back, the guy had that much of a hold on her emotions. I went through things somewhat like this and worse a few years ago, for my kids sake mostly and in the end me all the efforts and trying to hope for the best only brought more damage to myself and my kids. I hope I don't sound harsh but the situation is a harsh reality. You're fooling yourself if you think he'll really change at this point. Irresponsible adults and liars very rarely change their ways. It takes great effort and strength, something this guy obviously hasn't shown and likely doesn't have. Don't let insecurity keep you involved in a situation that obviously does nothing for you but drag you down. Don't try to rationalize and make excuses for his disregard of you. Don't waste time trying to change a lost cause when there's plenty of good people out there for you. With no kids in the picture, there's no real reason to put any effort into saving a relationship that's already failed. You really have no clue what he's lied to you about, only the lies you've caught him in, and even those he's tried to avoid responsibility for. I bet he's lying to you about more than you know. It sounds like you've become co-dependent, get out before it gets worse. Lots of people get depressed, it's a fact of life not a crutch to lean on and lots of people smoke weed without turning into unmotivated irresponsible liars. He has much bigger problems than those two things. He sounds like a very poor excuse for a man and he's shown you great disrespect and will continue to do so because you enable him. Would your family love him so much if they knew the truth? You'd be better off alone than with a person like this. Be very very glad you don't have kids with this guy and be glad the damage isn't worse than it is. Obviously his committment, honor and respect to you was over a while ago. Get him out of your life so you have a real chance at happiness. May the bridges you burn light the way.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 27, 2001.

River, please do read "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson. He has councilled many people in your shoes, and is looked up to by thousands of people who have used the principles in his books. You will find it a tremendous help, I feel certain.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 27, 2001.

To River Of Tears This is my point as a man how many men would stay with a woman had she done these things . On your money I would not put my money in the bank at all until I found out how bad the bills where it could be so bad you lose every thing you have you should not have to pay for his mistakes . He would get the help he needs and pay you back within a year or his ass would go also hold off on sex with him until then if he is not telling you the truth about things I would not trust on this . Please no one get mad at me these are just my thoughts . I have only been married once and it has been a great 24 years for us both but marraige is built on love and trust Country Friend Jack Bunyard

-- Jack Bunyard (bunyard@cnz.com), August 27, 2001.

Hey River, Glad to see all this good advice. Here's what I would do. Yes, the approach is rather 'parental', but this man is in a child-like state right now, so approaching him this way just might work. First, I'd write down on paper all of the things about him and the marriage that you absolutely, positively cannot accept/tolerate anymore. Maybe limit it to 3 things to start with. Get with hubby when he's sober & rational. Tell him that while you do love him and hope to stay married to him, you have decided that you just can't accept life the way it is. You will be making a decision in three months (or hoewever long), and you just want him to know that if hehas any hope whatsoever of remaining married, he will make the most serious effort he ever has during these next three months.

Then, back off. Follow the other advice that has been offered about seeing your counselor, banking your money, taking care of yourself. Don't even bring up the topic (with him) of your list, your complaints, or your marriage. Create distance...for you to evaluate the situation & for him to think about the possibilty of losing you. Basically, you lay your cards out and let him make the next move. Like everyone has already said, you can't change him, but you can decide what you are willing to live with or not. With the three month time frame, you both know that this situation is not going to just continue perpetually. Something is going to change, one way or another. You're giving him a fair chance to make a change, and it's up to him. One last thing: When I have a serious personal dilemma, I ask God to give me clarity. Without fail, I will get the answer or information I need. Good luck...I have a feeling you will be just fine! ;)

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), August 27, 2001.

Tough love! Boot Camp at home! Food, a roof over his head, TP, daytime TV, etc. and most importantly, love, respect and affection from you (if you have any left to give) become privileges, not rights! (Now don't everybody jump all over me and call me heartless and say I haven't got a clue for how I've responded, it is after all, just my opinion of how River should handle this). Doesn't sound like he's done much apologizing, just a lot of excuses, lies and blaming others. This would be a key factor in how many privileges he would get from me.

-- Rose Marie Wild (wintersongfarm@yahoo.com), August 27, 2001.

Jack!! Withhold sex!! What a novel idea coming from a man! :) ...............................................................

My biggest fear at this moment is that all of this stress is going to strike me down and then where will I be(already suffering from canker sores - never had before, had to look them up, breakouts, headaches, teeth grinding, and a tiredness that no amount of sleep touches). I am very susceptible to even low levels of stress due to inheritance of family anxiety disorder (thanks Mom). ...............................................

O.K. River of Tears here you go, taking over your finances and your life should be very impowering. Instead, "this stress is going to strike me down" say that to yourself enough and it will! Now your Mom is somehow responsible for your anxiety disorder? How about you are responsible for this mess you are in, you will not let the stress of this take over your life (first you ALLOWED your husband do this to you, now you are going to let illness do it) Maybe you should just stay with him and live in a cardboard box with him, after he spends all your money or gets busted for drugs, loose your job, and withhold sex :) See how pathetic the alternatives are? Don't waste a second of your emotional strength on pets either, let him have the dog, sounds as if its all he will be able to handle anyway. Contact your creditors, without being the whinning female simply explain that you are now responsible for the bills, they will work with you since they want these bills paid. You have enabled him to be this way for all these years, what has changed in your life to make you change right now? Certainly with the cost of drugs and not working he has spent your money before. Look in you and see why you are attracted to men like him, once again it is you who have seemed to change and not him. I do wish you the best, and I wish I could give you some strength. You will be stronger when this is all over. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 27, 2001.

Can I introduce you to a nice guy? 30's, gainfully employed, loves to read, great with kids, hard worker, good friend, funny, cheerful, doesn't drink, smoke or do drugs, good to his Mama.....

Divorce sucks. Been there, done that. Still beats the hell out of being unhappy and distrustful all the time. I got to the point where I was sitting around thinking "You know, I used to be happy." Now I am again. Deciding to end a marriage, or any other relationship hurts, and you wonder if the hurt will ever go away. You've invested time, money and love on this guy; you don't want to throw it all away. You wonder if you still love him under the anger....

I'm a psych nurse. I see a LOT of return customers (or frequent flyers, as they're known in the trade) with depression. Sometimes I wonder if ANYONE ever gets over it. If you stay with this guy, you need to figure out that you will be dealing with this for a long, long, long time- like maybe a lifetime worth of time. Do you have that much time? Do you want to spend that much time? Especially on someone who is making it clear that he doesn't want to get better? Smoking pot does not help depression go away. It is a crutch, just like alcohol. It doesn't help; it makes things worse. Battling depression requires commitment, energy and work. If he can't make a commitment to give up dope, he can't make a commitment to get over being depressed. Unless he has a chemical imbablance or is actually psychotic, I don't think psychotropic drugs are the answer. Personal opinion only folks, based on what I've seen.

Don't put a lot of faith in couple counseling. If he lied to you, he will lie to the counselor. If you expect flak from your family, ask them if they care more about him or you; and which one of you they want to have a happy fulfilling life. Don't, for heavens sake, trash him to your family, on the off chance that you decide to stay with him; they won't forget what you've told them and what are they going to think of you for putting up with this behavior?

My advice? Bail and run. At the very least, get a legal separation - doesn't matter that the accounts are in your name, etc... as long as you are married you are legally liable for his bills if he can't/won't pay them. If you want to stay married but legally separated without going on to divorce right away, boot his butt out and tell him to come back when he's got his act cleaned up. Don't sleep with him - he has lied too many times for you to be able to trust him. Demand that he get an AIDS test and checked out for other STDs. Buy a vibrator if you can't do without that type of satisfaction (sorry). Yeah, I know, you need a hug and a cuddle a lot more right now; but you are too darn vulnerable to go there at this point in time, get the hugs you need from a kid or a dog or your Mom or someone who won't take advantage of you.

Now that I've told you all that, I'm going to tell you this - you are going to get a lot of conflicting advice from a lot of people. You can't tell them everything and you really don't want to. You are going to have to tell them that the decision is yours to make; and be frank with them and tell them that you are not comfortable telling them everything. Even if every post on here and your family and your best friend and your minister and the lady who cuts your hair at the beauty shop all tell you to dump him - the fact is; this is your decision. You have to make it. You are strong enough to make this decision on your own.

Should you decide to get divorced and think about getting back into the dating scene; you'll find that it is a foreign world to you now. I was divorced six years before I remarried; and we dated for a year and a half of that time. Coming home disgusted early one night from a date with yet another loser; I sat down at my computer and started thinking about what I really wanted in a man. I ended up with a list of 42 - Yep, I said FORTY-TWO qualifications. Some of 'em were pretty no-brain; like "not currently married". Others went a little more in depth like "understanding my commitment to my family and realizing that my daughter was here first" and "good parent if they already have kids - like no child support slackers". "Likes to read" and "No TV addicts" were on there; along with "reasonably intelligent", "trustworthy" and "manually adept". I kept a copy with me all the time and would hand it to friends who wanted to set me up (a good question to ask them - "would you marry this person?"); or to the guys themselves if they asked me out. One guy looked at it and said "Geez woman - you want a Boy Scout!". I quite seriously replied "Eagle Scout". And I finally got one! Wouldn't hurt you to make that list up now. What is REALLY important to you? Now see how many of the things on your list that your husband matches. Would you date this man if you had it to do over? Make a list of what you have to offer - are you willing to work hard, financially responsible, do you volunteer and help others, are you a good cook, do you like your best friend's Mom? Do you deserve better than what you've got?

Blessings to you, dear girl; hope you find the happiness you deserve.

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), August 27, 2001.

Hey River, wake up. It is YOUR problem not his. He has got it made, and a maid too. You are the one who is in denial that there is a problem.

You need mental health counselling right now. Your local health department can probably direct you to some help that is probably free. He will not change, he has it made.

You say untreated depression and drugs (just a little), excuse me how bad do you intend to let it get. At this point the drugs are more important than the rent, the bills, and making an income (after all he does have you or your money taking care of all of that).

If you continue to keep on with this concept of "it's not too bad", you will be the one to suffer, not him. It is completely up to you at this point. He already has his best friend (drugs), his excuse (depression) real or immagined, and his free meal ticket (enabler) that is you. So it is all up to you here, he has no reason to change anything, he has it made.

-- Ed Copp (OH) (edcopp@yahoo.come), August 27, 2001.

River,

If you have any TRUSTWORTHY relatives or friends nearby, you could also squirrel some money away with them while you're getting ready to separate or divorce if you go that route. Also, if he was this carefree about your homestead money, I hope he doesn't have access to any of your retirement accounts (if you have any nest eggs set aside for that).

If your DH's condition is bad enough, and there are relatives, friends & doctors to corroborate this, you could be made a legal guardian (if you choose to stay). This way you could actually not let him have any access to cash whatsoever, so that he can't buy the pot if he's not growing it, or buy alcohol of any sort either. You might also find a doctor who says the pot's the problem and the only problem.

We are addicted to air, water, and food--we will die without them. I have never heard of anyone dying from quitting cigs (of any sort) or alcohol. He has made his choice--he loves pot more than his marriage. That's a choice. In many ways the best thing to do for HIM might be to leave--either a separation (which can be as long as you like, look at Willie Brown in San Francisco), or a divorce if you want to get married again.

I understand that you want to keep your marriage together, but there's a world of difference between staying to take care of a spouse with Alzheimer's or cancer or other debilitating illness, and enabling a person with a drug habit. I don't know how to put it any other way, I know it sounds harsh.

Good Luck.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), August 27, 2001.

Been there; done that! It wasn't pretty, but then sometimes real life isn't. I was married to a man who drank. After seven years of listening to how stupid I was and how I couldn't make it on my own, I guess I started to believe him. Well, I'm not stupid and not only could I make it on my own, I did. I had two children to care for and I knew I could provide for them better without him. He begged and pleaded that he would change but I had already given him plenty of opportunities but he only wanted to change when I threatened to leave. Now, 25 years later, I have two grown children who are reasonably well-adjusted and I'm happily married to a non-drinker. My ex is still a drunk and probably will always be. The children want nothing to do with him but that's not my problem. I did what I needed to do for not only them, but for myself.

Obviously you're an intelligent person who is quite capable of handling your finances as well as the rest of your life. You need to ask yourself if you'd be better off without him and then take whatever steps required to make positive changes. I'll be sending you good vibes and remember there are people out here who respect you and wish the best for you.

Wishing you enough.

-- Trevilians (aka Dianne in Mass) (Trevilians@mediaone.net), August 27, 2001.

I am sorry for the troubles you are having .Some of the advice has been very ruff ! You are at fault for loving and trusting someone , not all bad in my book .You have to spend some time alone to clear your head and think .Could you visit a friend for a few days now and then ? Don't exspect to make a decission over night .It will be a long process to come to a decission , take the time you need .Also start taking vitamens and eating correctly , try to get extra sleep if possible .Your system is run down from stress , try to build it up .Try to remember to eat well , stress will drop pounds off you in no time .Most of all find a shoulder to lean on .Good luck in whatever you decide .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 27, 2001.

Hi River, you said that you have been married for over 10 years. Has his bad behavior just been in the last year, or has this gone on for the whole 10 years?

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), August 27, 2001.

Too complicated! We don't cope well under stress with multiple choices and complicated situations. You have to prioritise and deal with things in order. That makes it simpler and less overwhelming.

I agree the first thing you have to do is separate finances and legal liabilities. Skip suggested a legal separation - if you can do that, then good. Whether or not your marriage continues, your husband has proven that you can't trust him with the finances. Sort that out and the situation simplifies enormously.

Vicki has a point - you let it happen. If you had taken charge, it wouldn't have happened this way. Well, you didn't know that then, you do now. There's no use wallowing in remorse about it. Accept it, and move on.

Next, find out what is owed, and if necessary make arrangements about repayments. Trying to meet impossible repayments when you're already behind will kill you - making an arrangement - maybe only with the biggest or most important debtor - to pay say $50 a week extra (or whatever you can afford) until you get caught up will legitimate your situation. You'll no longer have the pressure of being illegitimately behind, even if your repayments are up.

If there isn't the legal mechanism for a legal separation, you can still do something like it - I often see little ads in the public notices sections of newspapers saying something along the lines of "I, R.O.Tears, hereby declare that I will no longer be liable for debts incurred in my name by anyone other than myself personally". I assume that's part of the process, either maritally or between parents and children; and that it has been accompanied by direct notices to all other current creditors or anyone with whom you might still have an ongoing business relationship (say a bank account you haven't closed). In fact, sort those out and close all non-current accounts in writing - may be better to close any which are recognised as being joint accounts, and go through the hassle of restarting them in your name only if necessary. My former wife actually cashed cheques on a bank account I'd closed after she'd left me, using a business who had cashed cheques for her before. Do this immediately and without notice - you may be able to extract something from a bank account before he gets it, or at least assure that your money will no longer be available to him before he makes some last desperate raids on credit cards. When you do, change banks as well for the new accounts - it's much harder for him to get at an account in a bank where he's never had rights. If he's genuine about wanting to redress matters, then he'll hand over his pay and let you administer that as well. Don't just assume that you now have control of the accounts - make sure of it by opening accounts that are yours alone. If you deal with accounts that were joint, banks can make mistakes, or it may even be that there are legal ramifications that mean, for instance, that he can apply for "replacement of a lost card".

Doing that, and talking to your husband after it's done, may even provide enough of a shock to your husband to impel him into really getting treatment. Certainly there are alternate medications available, and he can't be allergic to them all. He may not like the effects, and therefore say (or even believe) he's allergic to them. After all, he won't feel the same way he's used to while he's on them - but that's the point, isn't it? I in fact have been through this kind of thing - my former wife is schizophrenic; and people who are not mentally normal can be incredibly manipulative, cunning on occasions, lie about things, and definitely not accepting of medication which changes them. If there's an element of paranoia, then they won't be accepting of treeatment at all. On the other hand, they can do things unthinkingly, even not realise that what they are saying isn't the truth, and be unable to think through the consequences of their actions.

Having said all that, still I stuck with it - it was she who walked out. In retrospect, it should have been brought to a head much earlier - we would both have been better off (as would the kids). I'm not telling you to end it. However, you should immediately go into damage control mode; then start action to resolve the problem. If it can't or won't be resolved by your husband's genuine actions, then it is better for the association to end. It may even be better for him - it was ultimately for my ex-wife - she is now receiving the treatment she refused or avoided while we were married.

I can appreciate the effects of depression - looking back, I'm sure there was a time when I would have warranted the diagnosis of clinical depression. I think that was just induced by circumstances, and I came through it eventually. However, it was a most un-fun time, and probably not helped by alcohol. Both cannabis and alcohol are clinical depressants, and will not help someone who is already depressed.

In fact, there are a range of mental illnesses which the experts are now trying to redefine and separate, but which can occur in conjunction. For instance, my wife's initial diagnosis was paranoid- schizophrenic, then schizphrenic, then manic-depressive (they've changed the terminology for that to bipolar disorder now), and occasionally I just hear depression. It sounds to me as if your husband is showing elements of paranoia ("they" changed the credit- card statements). It's recognised now that cannabis can trigger schizophrenia, particularly in people with a predisposition to it, and I can certainly recognise elements of my wife's behaviour in what you describe of him. Part of the picture with schizophrenia is depression as well.

So, in summary, my opinion is that you need to separate finances and get control of them.

Then you can address the matter of your husband's mental health and treatment.

Then depending on the outcome of that, you can start making other decisions - I'm not making recommendations on those - they're your personal business. However, with the other problems addressed, you'll be in better shape to decide.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), August 27, 2001.

I've never been married, but I've seen how my parents have managed through the valleys in their marriage. They certainly are not the most in love couple I know. But maybe you need to think of just managing. Manage things somehow. The advice about getting control of the finances is very wise. You HAVE TO do that. There is a passage in the Bible that goes something like this--If a man doesn't take care of his family, he is worse than an unbeliever. That's what God thinks of him right now. He's in bad shape. I don't believe in divorce either. I would think that a legal separation and resulting separate finances might wake him up. If not, I think his pot-filled brain is not capable of thinking any longer. You may have to treat him as the child he seems to be and become his guardian, so that you can force him to get help. I will pray that Jesus will help you to do that right thing. God's blessings to you.

-- GailSchettenehlm (gailas@juno.com), August 29, 2001.

Talk to your husband, honest communication is the most important factor in my marriage not that I've been married long. Love is not enough - you may want it to be, but its not.

Sometimes people just grow apart at or grow at different rates while ten yers ago you both may have been going in the same direction, today you may not be.

If you want more out of your life you are going to have to make some serious decisions. I like the response of the person who wrote their criteria for a hubby on a page this shows you know what you want and what you are willing to comprimise on but at least you know - I also would reccommend you do this, not only for the man in your life, but for your whole life. I have three categories, wants, needs, and dreams. Its not a plan for your life but a focus, a goal and a direction.

If you can get your hubby to write down what he wants for the rest of his life wouldn't it be interesting to compare it with your goals - try it; it may give you the answer you are looking for.

Its not a relationship book but a book about recoginsing and coping with change "who stole my cheese" (don't know the author) is a short book (about 1.5hrs read) it is fantastic and I re-read it often. I think as it is so short you would get immediate benefits and would like to hear from you after you have read it.

I would say good luck, but its not luck you need "have strength"

-- Jen (heavenleigh2938@hotmail.com), August 29, 2001.

River of Tears,

I am 40 years old. My first husband died from drugs. My second husband is still a bloomin' alcoholic and the only hope I offer is a miracle brought about by a lot of prayer on my part for the sake of the kids. He is my ex #1.

My ex #2 was a pothead and a drunk. He skipped town and seven years later I finally filed for a divorce figuring that he was dead.

My ex #3 couldn't stay faithful if his life depended on it and I prayed like crazy that he would get real with the God that he claimed was his Lord and he finally begged me to file for a divorce. I refused still hoping for a miracle. He finally asked me if I would be willing to not contest it if he filed and we were divorced.

I gave up trying to figure out the lunacy of his rationalizing. However, the pain of all of these failed marriages did something wonderful for me. It caused me enough pain for me to become willing to get help myself!!!

They have a saying in AA. Like attracts like and we never marry anybody who is weller than we are because if we did it would make us feel like less than.

Leaving the marriage isn't the answer. You'll probably find someone else just as bad or worse. This last marriage, I found out that it's a lot easier to leave than it is to stick with it and make it work.

I guess the difference is that this time I had more of a relationship with God and I had proven to myself by that time that He could and would help me if I sought His help.

Did I marry someone weller this time around?? Nah, in reality he is probably sicker, but there are major differences.

1. We agreed beforehand to take our vows seriously, so as not to become another statistic. (There are no exits).

2. The only requirement to make this marriage work is to trust God and love the other one, even when we don't like them, or worse...even when we hate how they act or what they do.

3. We pray for the wisdom to get past our issues so that we can love one another the way we are supposed to. (Abuse issues, alcoholism, drug addiction, PTSD and major depression, anger issues).

4. It literally takes a miracle for us to stay together. God keeps us together when we don't know how.

5. The grass always looks greener from somebody elses 'outsides'. We both learned that marriages have been protrayed as fantasies for so long in books and on the tube that nobody seems to know the difference between reality and make believe. We choose to stay in reality, even if it hurts.

6. True love, is politically incorrect. It looks out for someone besides our own selves. It is based on unconditional love, even if there is no trust, or the trust has been broken.

7. A firm belief that God is bigger than any problem we have or can create.

That is what has kept our marriage together. Through dealing with all of the past abuse issues, our mutual post traumatic stress disorder. Our abandonment issues, ect, ect, ect.

The first couple of years were really stressful. We went through a lot of growing pains and we stayed together in spite of ourselves. Our decisions to stay together wasn't really one of choice. We both became Christians and we knew that because of our faith that this was the last marriage we would ever enter into.

Thinking in those terms, sorta cuts out the 'what if's' of throwing the good-for-nothing out on his ear and finding a replacement. That by the way works both ways.

He has a lot of short comings including an inability to be financially responsible. After I let him fall flat on his face he let go of his ego and I now handle all of the finances.

We both have weeknesses and strengths and that is what makes a marriage work. If we were both alike one of us would be unnecessary. Our marriage has survived, disability, financial ruin, death's in the family, in-laws, new jobs, going to school and plain old stress, stress, stress.

I believe that we have a better marriage than most people act like they do, because we have learned to become honest with each other. We don't expect the other to be perfect and we have come so far it would be a shame to let anything stand in the way.

So, River of Tears, that is my experience, strength and hope. I hope it helped. I hope it gave you a paddle.

-- Stephanie Nosacek (possumliving@go.com), August 29, 2001.

River, Having been through much of what your going through, and learning from my experience, here is my advice: "This above all, to thine own self be true".

If you do that, you will answer your own question.

-- Mary in East TN (barnwood@preferred.com), August 31, 2001.

Mary, that depends on who your god is. If self is your god, then yes, be true to your self above all else, no matter who it hurts. And yes, if self is your god, then by all means, trash the guy, because you only will have the strength you can muster up from within yourself. But if you are truly a follower and worshipper of a God in Heaven, then the whole situation changes. Then, you serve others more than yourself. Your strength comes from God, instead of yourself. This means you are able to be true the best in you, which is your loving side, while also being true to the best in the hubby, which is the side you know is there, though you dont see it at present. Having God as your source for strength gives you the backbone to stnad up and stop taking the nonsense from hubby's bad side. To tell him that you are serious, this WILL stop, and if it doesnt, I will leave till you go get help.

This is true love to others. To simply chuck the hubby because he doesnt measure up, is evidence that self is god. I am not saying that divorce is always avoidable. It really does take two to make it. But at this point, the river hasnt used all her leverage she has at her disposal, to make the situation change. Obviously, this guy is using her to enable him to stay the way he is. If she stops enabling him to live that lifestyle, he will have to change or else find other enabling resources. If he does find other enabling resources, then he has obviously made his choice, and I think she may need to leave him. But I would definately walk this thing through with God, and a good christian councillor. I do think this marriage, and this hubby's life, can be saved.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), September 01, 2001.

Dear River,

I have been in your position and it is a choice you have to make yourself...there are things that you need to consider and get taken care of right a way...anything that you are on (charge cards, lease, car, etc. can come back to haunt you...get your name off them ASAP) (words of experience here)...then take over money management for your household..if your husband wasn't able to handle it, then its your turn...suggest that he seek HELP (church, counselor-whatever) - let your family and his know there is a problem (don't hide it get it out in the open), then sit down with your husband (no one else around) and nicely confront the issue...if he wants his family he needs to grow up-if you have children, point this out to him -the wonderful example he is setting for them- and if he cares for you make the change - take one drug free day at a time should become his motto - the ultimate decision is yours...and good luck to you..it is not an easy decision to make..so consider your options before you make a move toward divorce...on a happier note, there are wonderful men out there..it may take a little time to find them...good luck with your future.

-- Alexa Krain (DrMom5775@aol.com), September 01, 2001.

I have been wondering how you are doing? I hope you are OK and that some of this advice has helped. Please let us know how you are.

-- Melissa (cmnorris@1st.net), September 04, 2001.