I guess it took a mere five days for the roaches to come out of the woodwork. Barbara Lee, representative from California and a democrat was the single member of the full congress to vote "no" on the issue of giving the president the OK to make war on the imbeciles who attacked the United States. Then, today on several stations, I heard folks state that "Just because Afghanistan supports terrorists does not make it OK for us to go to war with the country". I could not believe my ears.....I wonder how many folks voiced the same sentiment five days after Pearl Harbor? Have we truly become so complacent in our society that we do not recognize the need for military action NOW, before these countries have far-reaching nuclear capabilities? Too bad that Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan were not on the other side of the world facing California..maybe then Ms. Lee would feel the threat of some nuclear war a little clearer. I am so dismayed that there are folks in this country who do not find it necessary to actually suffer personally to retain our freedoms; who find it "repulsive" to use force....weren't the pictures of the 4,900 folks missing in the WTC gut-wrenching? Wasn't the sight of the airliners crashing into the towers repulsive? You just cannot dialogue with folks who are willing to hurl themselves and 5000 other folks into oblivion without provocation. I suggest that anyone who does not wish to stand up and declare their willingness to fight directly or indirectly for our country's freedom should seriously consider travelling to Afghanistan to have lunch with Bin Laden..maybe they think they could ask him to pretty please, play nice next time, eh? The good part about today is hearing all the young folks waking up and realizing what freedoms they have here and that they need to be involved in defending them. I am glad that the patriots outnumber the traitors. God bless.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), September 15, 2001

Answers

I think the representative from California explained her actions very rationally. She said she was not voting against action against the responsible parties. She was voting against giving the President too much power. The power to go to war should lie with Congress. I believe the Gulf of Tokin Resolution should have taught us a little more than it did. Before all of you jump on me, I believe in the fight. I just want Congress to at least have a say in the matter.

-- bill (bill@bill.com), September 15, 2001.

I'm in the dark about this. What were they voting on exactly? Congress needs to be the ones that give the okay to go to war, that is what is constitutional.

They passed a anti terrorist bill that is very scary to constitutional rights as well. It gives even broader communications tapping and other monitoring across the board.

We can't trade our liberty for safety. There is no point. Life isn't safe, it is a fatal condition to be in for all but one or two people in all of history.

Please give a bit more info on what this legislation was if possible. Thanks!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), September 15, 2001.

The vote was for the congress to give permission to the president to declare war in this particular instance only. In an interview today, Barbara Lee stated that she felt she had to be the lone voice of dissent, not because she did not want the president to have the power, but to represent all of the Americans who were not in favor of any military retaliation. The congressional vote was to ask the members of congress if they felt war was justified in this case AND to give the president the power to declare it himself. I am going to dig for some historical info to see if this has been done before because I believe it has. If I am wrong, I will be the first to say so. I am so disgusted with this congresswoman, especially since she said she voted to make a "statement". Now is the time for unity, not to make 'statements'. Enemies love it when they can hear the bickering begin to surface.

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), September 16, 2001.

Bill they did. They said it in their vote. Congress did have a say.

I agree with Doreen about trading liberty for safety, but most of what has been done in the last few days hasnot eroded our liberties anymore than they were alrady eroded. We may see it more clearly in the coming weeks but the damage had already been done before now. We are in a state of Emergency. I am much more comfortable with Bush in control of the Emergency than I would have been Clinton. Bush is simply using what was already put in place. This doesn't make all these laws right, they are just a fact of living in a country that has eroded our freedom. The good news is that America is united behind stopping these creeps. Gun sales are up! The Militia is still in Place in America. By Militia I DON'T mean little groups calling themselves the militia. I mean all armed men, just as our forefather's did. There are many countries in this world that an invading army would meet no resistance in. This cannot happen in the US because of our Militia, because of those people who can still own their weapons. If China decides to jump in the middle of this, there are going to be a lot of Californians who are going to learn the meaning of the Word militia and learn it in the saddest way possible. We have already learned the hard way because not one of those passengers was in a position to put a stop to this. Why? Because they were unarmed. Today when you fly on a plane you give up your second amendment rights. Has it made us safer? Judge for yourself. Not a single passenger on those flights was safe. People died tuesday because they were unarmed. Now we are all searching around for someone to get even with. Maybe we should look at the real culprit in these matters. Could it possibly be that we are our own worst enemy. If they had even one armed security person on that Plane, the world trade centers would still be standing. Listen people at this point we are in a position when the place to stand for liberty is in our own front yard. We cannot control what our government does, only what we ourselves do. We can vote, but the place the erosion of liberty hits us is when we get up every morning. We have choices. We don't have to fly, and give up our second amendment rights. Each and every one of us has the right to stay on the ground until the airlines either lets us arm ourselves or falls apart. Drive for crying out loud! They can only body scan you if you decide that getting to aunt Martha's is more important than your liberty. This goes for everything in life. We are only controlled when we allow ourselves to be controlled. Even if in the national State of Emergency the entire country is under lock down, it only happens if we allow it to happen. We can never have national freedom if we do not exercise personal freedom. This was the attitude of our Forefather's too. That was what the boston Tea Party was about.

Everyday we are faced with decisions of liberty. Will we shop at the store where they take our picture for a check? Will we fly on a plane and leave our second amendment rights at the door? Will we only buy a can of lye for soap making or take the chance of being targeted by the DA for drug making by buying a case. Each and every one of us makes these decisions, and yet the ignorance of it has become habit. To me this is what Homesteading is about. Homesteading is about choosing personal freedom. That is why I am a homesteader. I am not an isolationist unless my personal freedom dictates it. In other words, just because the crowd climbs aboard a jumbo jet everyday, does not mean that my standard of personal freedom allows me to. Just because farmers spray poison on their crops does not mean that my standard of personal freedom allows me to. The things we do without question are the things that hurt us in the end. Those people boarded a flight without question and paid for it with their lives. Those people in the towers chose to work in a building that was more than a hundred stroies and paid for it with their lives. I am not suggesting that they were in the wrong, just that all of us need to think for ourselves, not allow herd mentality to overtake us.

Little bit farm

-- Little bit farm (littleBit@compworldnet.com), September 16, 2001.

I agree with a lot Little Bit said. Right now our people are being harassed by vehicle searches. Not just a reasonable but take it apart searches. This is one of the things I was afraid could happen Here in the USA.

I would love to blast the living daylights out of the parties responsible for the attack. I even agree (sorry but this as related to the function is true) that Air Port security has been a little on the lax side. YES if even one citizen had been armed the terrorist could be dead and the attack averted.

One question I have. (And this really bothers me) If the terrorist were armed only with knives and boxes (supposedly bombs) why didn't all the persons on the plane jump the bastards and stop them. I've seen photo's of women picking up cars to protect their kids. And What diaper bag or carry on couldn't be used as a determent?

Before anyone blast me, I've heard this line of questioning from 16- 80 year olds. One nice 65 year old lady said before she'd let them kill hundreds she'd try everything in her power to have stoped them. So I guess I wonder what stoped all those persons from trying. I heard a news reporter suggest that maybe the passengers were gased and not able to do anything.

I for one think the congresswoman should have voted YES Bomb Them, Bomb them all. Ok I'm venting. The thought of all the innocent people that died for a few slime balls. !@#$%^&*( pardon my french)

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), September 16, 2001.

Up until Tuesday, whenever there has been a hijacking of an airplane, the creeps make demands, they land the plane somewhere in a nice airport,and demand that sammy slimeball be released from prison and they all get a free plane ride back to Saudi Arabia. There has never been one instance of a commercial jet being used to become a bomb. So, there the poor folks were on the plane, thinking these hijackers would do as they always have..in which case, shut your mouth and they will let you go eventually. Only on one plane did the passenhers hear that they were going to be used to kill thousands of other Americans and then that crowd of patriots decided to overcome the hijackers. I am sure that they thought they could overcome them and regain the airplane, landing safely...perhaps I am wrong and they decided to crash into the ground VS be used to kill Americans..it's kind of a moot point since either way, they were the stuff that brave Americans are made of. The plane which was used against the Pentagon was in the air over an hour before they knew they had been hijacked. Remember hearing what poor Barbara Olson asked her husband? "What should I say to the hijackers?" Doesn't that tell us the poor woman had no clue what was about to happen to her and the rest of the passengers? Can you imagine the panic which would have ensued had the morons told the folks they were going to crash into the WTC???? To me, it is simple to see why nobody did anything on three planes..historically, they would be political pawns who would eventually be safe. Why risk your life when you think your life is not in imminent danger? For those of you who have never been near a mad person with a small knife, let me tell you how intimidating they are; in a maximum security prison, I witnessed one inmate holding over 30 correctional officers at bay with a sharpened ball-point pen. He was taken down with the dogs. I have seen men with carotids sliced from a picnic plastic knife HANDLE which has been sharpened..we had one fellow who received a punctured lung from being stabbed with a wire mounted on the end of a toothbrush. Folks can be quite intimidated by little bitty knives.Also, we have know way of knowing if the terrorists killed the regular pilots or tied them up or what. If you saw the pilots killed, would you attack the terrorists???Who would fly the plane???? Things are easy for us to say here on the ground..but we actually have very little accurate facts to go on.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), September 16, 2001.

It IS much easier to sit here on the computer in relative safety and say "well I woulda..." all day long. I have no idea what happened there. The plane over the capitol still bothers me. Beyond that it is all conjecture. They were indeed madmen, and you can't reason with that in any way.

I do know what it's like to have a knife held to your throat. That is one of the occurrences in my life that let me know I won't freeze, which is a good thing to know about yourself. However, I DO NOT want it repeated, and I did not enjoy it at all.

-- Dreen (bisquit@here.com), September 16, 2001.

I suspect that in any future hijackings, the hijackers won't have such an easy time of it, unless, as someone suggested might have happened, they gassed the passengers. I also suspect that the pilots won't be opening the door to the cockpit, no matter what threats the hijackers make. So hijacking planes will become a whole lot more difficult and probably won't happen very often any more. Now we just have to worry about what they are going to pull next time. It will be something we haven't thought of, planned to take us off-guard, just as this did. It may only take us off-guard once, but that would be enough for them to do some serious damage, so we need to be alert for anything and not take the safety of any location or institution for granted.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 17, 2001.

Lesley, I consider you a sister in Christ. I am trying to understand what you are saying and "get" it right. Do you honestly believe that people who are not willing to sacrifice their sons and daughters at the alter of revenge without asking any questions or debating the course of action are traitors?? I love my country with all my heart but I personally remember very vividly Viet Nam. In the early sixties people were deeply persecuted for asking questions or encouraging debate. Most younger people are not aware of that and think that the debate only began late in the war when we were obviously losing. A war of the magnitude that our president is suggesting will need the most unprecidented committment of EVERYONE. We will not be fighting it OVER THERE. NOW is, IMHO, for everyone to debate and examine their hearts...........NOT after a course that we have no LONG TERM stomach for.

Wonder of wonder, my sister Little Bit Farm and I are in agreement about something!!! I have in my innermost being known that something terrible was going to happen based on what our foreign policy has developed into. Nope, didn't see me at the U of M games that I love so dearly; flying only when in the direct service of the Lord. No large crowds or tall buildings for me. If I am to be a martyr I want it to be for Christ. I have cryed almost none stop since witnessing the event live on ABC Tuesday morning in our doctor's office. I am trivail for my country and for my WORLD.

People talk of a God of justice and I have to cling to a God of love. MY GOD held those buildings up so so many people could escape this dispicable act. MY LORD said "Blessed are the peacemakers for they are the children of God". I guess I just really, most of all, need to know that it is o.k. to question and debate before it is etched in stone what direction we are proceeding in.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 17, 2001.

Diane, we do need to consider deeply our course of action. There are some possible responses that would only make things much worse. But, if we don't respond, and respond strongly and consistently, we only lay ourselves open to more attacks of the same kind. How many thousand people have to die before we wake up to the fact that these people *must* be stopped. They aren't going to stop on their own until they have completely destroyed the Western World. Some people may think the Western World needs to be destroyed, but surely they can't believe that what these terrorists would replace it with is better than what we have now? I don't think there is any comparison here with Vietnam. We should never have gone in there, it wasn't our business. A major attack against both civilian and military targets on our own soil very much IS our business.

I've been seeing a lot of responses on the various lists that sound like people STILL just don't get it!! They seem to think that we can turn the other cheek, and life will just go on as it always has. It won't! If we don't put a stop to the terrorists, they will put a stop to us!! I am not thinking in terms of revenge, because God says vengeance is His business, not ours. But if we truly believe our country and our civilization is worth preserving, the time has come when we are going to have to fight for it. And I will say what I already said on another thread. Understandably, none of us want to see our beloved children, nephews, and so on, put in danger. But, do you expect other people's sons (and perhaps daughters) to risk their lives to protect you and yours, while you and yours stay safely at home? Think about it! I repeat, this is not Vietnam, there is no comparison. This is our own homeland that has been attacked and we can be very sure it will be attacked again, and we need to defend it if we want to keep it.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 17, 2001.

I just wanted to add that one of the *good* things about this country is our unwillingness to go to war and watch people die, both our own loved ones and the innocent citizens of another country. We wouldn't be the nation we are if we enjoyed such a prospect. However, there comes a time when it's necessary.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 17, 2001.

Kathleen, I was not insinuating that this was like Viet Nam. The point I was trying to make was that I do not believe that I am a traitor if I think questioning and debate is a good thing. I am not prepared to blindly follow a leadership that has gotten us to this point in history where we are attacked on our own soil. I want answers as to how and why this happened and not some vague enemy that happens to be in some country we THINK. My comparison to Vietnam was referring to people questioning it's wisdom being labeled early on as traitors. The retoric of "distroying evil" as suggested by President Bush might sound very noble but what exactly does that mean??? I just happen to have a HUGE amount of questions and I think if we just try and swallow them as some sort of patriotic duty we perhaps are being less that true to our own morals. For me, that would be the case. It is my personal belief that we need to examine our position of somehow being 911 to the world; specifically a world that doesn't particularly appreciate it anyway.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 17, 2001.

Diane, I do agree with you that a lot of questions need to be answered. I guess my post was partly because of others I've seen (not only on this list) where some people seem to still want to have pacifist tendencies, as if we actually have a choice whether we get involved in this conflict or not!

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 17, 2001.

Diane, I am not stating that we should have our children suit up in a military uniform and be sent to who knows where to die blindly as an act of "revenge". I AM saying: our nation has been attacked...we MUST respond to this..perhaps not in the next hour but certainly respond WHEN we know where these folks are and who is sponsoring them. Do you truly believe that bin Laden is not a criminal? Do you truly believe that Afghanistan has not harbored and sponsored criminal terrorists? Whether or not bin Laden was behind THIS act, he is still an enemy of our country and needs to be found, and soon. I am not interested in revenge. "Vengance is mine" says God. I AM intensely interested in our country moving as fast as it can towards eliminating the evil forces of terrorism. Rhetoric is fine, questions are fine, yet should the country be in a state of "blah blah blah" when we have been attacked? More folks were killed last Tuesday than at Pearl Harbor. Think of the sheer enormity of that. After Pearl Harbor, should we have all chatted about "Well, are they SURE it was the Japanese? Gee, if we wage war on Japan & Germany & Italy, some of our sons and daughters may get killed..let's think about this...let's talk it over with Japan and see if we can reason with them first...hmm, wonder if our own government did this to justify us entering the war and remove our civil liberties? Ok, we'll go to war with Japan, but first, we want to know every scrap of information that the government has....we have to know all the possible scenarios of battle plane and troop movements, etc. etc. etc." Can you possibly imagine what the world would be like if that had occured in 1941? My sons are ready to fight for the freedoms they enjoy here as US citizens..to preserve them, to defend them to their best ability. Do I relish the idea of my children going to war? Of course not. Am I fearful for their safety? Of course I am. But I am NOT willing to allow the future of MY country to be in jeopardy because of a foreign power who supports outright terrorism, who calls for the death of folks who preach Christianity, and who had little regard for the lives of innocent NON- MILITARY Americans. If we do not act to stop them, then what will our lives be like and more importantly the lives of our grandchildren? There were folks in the 1700s who preached against war with England..there will always be folks who prefer to enjoy liberty without risk of their own lives or property. For me, it is quite simple...civilians in the USA were mercilessly slaughtered..there exists a government in the world who has stated clearly that they support these activities in the past and will continue to do so....too many of my ancestors died to provide me with liberty for me to ignore MY TIME to defend it. Debate all you wish, hold up our country as the one which is wrong all you want to, distrust the government so much that you want pat answers to everything..while we speak and ponder and mistrust and wait and become fractionalized, the terrorists laugh and plan their next move on more of our citizens.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), September 17, 2001.

Lesley, I guess I still don't know if you think I am a traitor but that is o.k. In answer to your question, most certainly I believe that bin Lauden and the al-Qaida are murderers and therefore criminals who need to be brought to justice. The Taliban is a group of thugs who are holding Afganistan and it's people hostage. They took control largely as a result of our help in totally destablizing the area. I am very familiar with the terrain we are talking about and I certainly wish I were wrong in my belief we will be sending our troops to a suicide mission if we send them in there. My belief is that we have to find a better way and that even if we got bin laden we would not defuse the al-Qaida.

When I try to talk peace today I feel like perhaps I truly am wasting my breath and I should just adopt the attitude of my Brethern Amish neighbors. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. America has been scorned, in their opinion, and it is God's will that people of war will kill each other and the world will be a better place because of it. I wish I could be that simplistic, my life would not be nearly so troubled as it is right now as I feel a strong moral obligation to push people to educate themselves about what we are facing here. The enemy is waiting............the enemy knows us intimately and has us in the palm of his hand now. He wants nothing more than to get us in a holy war.........the mother of all wars. I wish you peace in your heart, with your decisions and those of your leaders. God help us all.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 17, 2001.

I think that anyone who does not support their country in time of war is a traitor. Support means anything from active military duty to flying the flag proudly from the window of your retirement home. Support means being a concientious objector, but working as a volunteer packing up boxes of underwear or rolling bandages. Support means directly or indirectly being of service to your nation. If I offend anyone by my beliefs regarding the support of my nation during time of war, so be it. Traitors are folks like Jane Fonda in the Viet Nam era and anyone else who publicly or privately works against the efforts of the nation to preserve freedom or attempts to demoralize the nations military or populace at large in time of war. How many more Americans have to die from terrorism for some folks to wake up and smell the coffee? This country is not perfect, this government is not pure, but it is my country and I will defend it in any way I can. I have never understood the thinking of folks who rant and rave about how "bad" America is...how can you stand to live in a country that you cannot support?????? There are hundreds of places to live in. Not necessarily directed towards you, diane, but if a person dislikes his country so much that they cannot rally themselves to support it in time of war, why not go where things are more to your liking? Canada seems nice..they aren't the 911 for the world..to my knowledge they have no soldiers in the Middle East and probably do not have intelligence operatives teaching other countrys' radicals how to overthrow their government. I cannot recall if they murdered indigenous peoples hundreds of years ago, and it has been years since a high level politician got caught cheating on his wife. So why not pull up stakes here, leave this abominable country behind with its' horrid government and trek off to become a Canadian? Now I will stop typing because I feel a great urge to be even more sarcastic and that kind of rhetoric is not helpful. Suffice it to say that I am a proud American who is incredibly weary of folks who verbally abuse my country when it's down and hurting.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), September 17, 2001.

Sorry I have so deeply offended you Lesley. It never occured to me that thinking repentance from sin was too much to ask. Point made and I will be quiet. Obviously our love for humanity and our country is taking very different forms.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 18, 2001.

Diane, I do agree with you that as a nation American needs to repent of its sins. I don't see that happening, maybe we need a few more terrible disasters like last Tuesday before we will realize that we not only need to be praying, we need to be *changing our lives and our country*. However, that does not abrogate the immediate need for a response to the terrorists. Yes, we need to try to do it without causing even more violence in reciprocation. I think, based on my admittedly small knowledge of the situation, that maybe the best thing to do would be to work with the opposition forces in Afghanistan, supply and equip them and let them take OBL and his forces out and put the Taliban out of power. I don't know if that is what our government plans on doing, I don't even know if it would be the right thing to do, considering the fact that so many times when we've helped train and equip people like that, later they've turned that knowledge and equipment against us. I do know that if we don't do *something* we will take more hits from terrorists, and if we still didn't do anything, the whole world will end up Muslim, and that will be the end of all freedom as we know it. Maybe that sounds kind of extreme, but I think it is a true statement. No, not all Muslims are terrorists, but a Muslim regime, even a moderate one, would remove almost all the freedoms we now enjoy, especially the freedoms women enjoy.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 18, 2001.

We need to be respectful of those who are pacifist at heart. You see, I grew up in a Mennonite home, and they practice what they call "non-resistance." Jesus said "Resist not evil." And they obey that to the letter. When someone sues them at law, they pay it all, with no contest. When someone breaks into their house and steals from them, they do not prosecute. When someone physically assaults them, they stand there and take it, praying for their attackers the whole while. They feel very deeply about this.

However, I have moved beyond that. I have come to realise that it would have been better to shoot those hijacked planes down, rather than to allow them to hit the WTC and Pentagon. My family, though, would simply say that that decision was not given to them by God. They do support the government in it's role of enforcing laws, and they obey every law which does not conflict with what they beleive is God's law. Of course, they do not take part in any governmental processes.

Personally, I am not sure where I stand right now. I do understand that if it were not for Christians getting involved in our government, this country would be very different. If we leave the government up to those who know nothing of God's law, then we should expect the nation's laws to become very difficult for Christians to keep.

But yet, I cannot bring my soul to countenance killing another human being. I know Bin Laden needs to be taken care of, and it should not be incarceration. That guy would be able to lead terrorists from inside our prison system! Obviously, he needs to recieve capital punishment for his crime. The entire world needs to be free from him. Yet, I could not do it personally.

Please, dont condemn me for my ambivalence on the issue of war. My son is 15, and so gentle he wouldnt hurt a flea. He would never be able to shoot humans. Frankly, I am for once glad for his horribly flat feet. If, however, he would volunteer for a non-combatant post, I would support him. My folks, however, would be convinced he is not a christian.

So I guess all I am saying is, this is supposedly a tolerant country. Yet the Mennonites suffered horrifically in the first world war. Within the armed forces, they were treated so badly for refusing to fight that they actually died from it in some cases. Will we have the attitude in here that everyone MUST beleive the way I do about war? Isnt this a religious issue? Is there freedom of religion or not in this country?

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), September 18, 2001.

Quit the pacifist/traitor/patriot talk. Just because you do not support a war, does not mean you are a traitor. If you did something to harm that effort, such as try to prevent the govt/military from doing their job or aiding the enemy, then that is being a traitor. If I drop a dime and let some bad guys know that I just saw the USS whatever pull anchor, that is being a traitor. Sitting back doing nothing does not mean i am a traitor. Let's not go back the the days where you had to prove you were not a Communist to be considered an American.

-- Bill (bill@bill.com), September 18, 2001.

Ok Bill. There is nothing anyone can say to one another anyway which will change beliefs that are so strongly held. My Amish and Mennonite friends who are devout pacifists are not traitors...they say nothing one way or the other. They neither rally folks around the flag nor publicly "put down" the countrys' government in time of war. I've made my stand and am immovable as are others with their opinions. God bless us all.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), September 18, 2001.

Once again, I do sincerely apologize to anyone that I have offended by my criticism of my country. Again I forgot that this medium of communication has some serious flaws and I am most certainly not speaking with my “family” when I voice my opinion here. I have spoken at the CS forum about my “diverse” family and our struggles to remain “family” with such diverse viewpoints. Believe me, we struggle but we all know something about each other that we don’t know here. We know each other’s hearts; our deep love for each other, our country and our world.

I am certain that something does have to be done to stop these people, but I am equally certain that we need a vision for what “peace” should look like and what part a peace loving nation should play in the promotion of terror in other parts of the world. This event has shown us something very terrible. We are vulnerable to what we export and produce. I struggle just like you with anger, fear, grief and despair at what has happened.

My son described our struggle most directly in an e-mail to me today. “My Christian heart cries for peace but my worldly heart says………..big glass parking lot.” Hugs and love to all………….and may God Bless the United States of America and guide her course.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 18, 2001.

1 Peter 2 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit farm (littleBit@compworldnet.com), September 18, 2001.

O.K. Little bit farm............my government says abortion is legal, does that mean God is telling me it is o.k. to perform them???

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 18, 2001.

I for one, do not believe in blindly following a national directive. I see that our country was based on the right of the people to know what is going on. I have a LOT of questions. There are a number of things I would like to have answered, yet I do of course realize that there isn't time for all of the questions to be answered either.

There is no way someone questioning, or rejecting the idea of taking up arms, qualifies them as a traitor. As Lesley said, wrapping bandages, making food, what have you is an aid to the country.

I want to thank daffodyllady for the expose on Mennonites. I had no idea that they were beaten to death for not fighting.....very, very sad.

I am 100% behind my country, but I do have serious questions and I don't think this knee jerk patriotism that is being displayed everywhere is of the sort that abides hardship. We must be very careful here......obeying government is one thing, but I still think a war against terrorism is going to make the war on drugs look like a parade for freedom and liberty by comparison. Myself, I want to fight a defined enemy, and I want to be sure of the guilt not just suspicious.

That said, everyone is making really strong points, and I do see agreement here, believe it or not!!!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), September 18, 2001.

My point with the verse was not that we should blindly follow our governemnt to the exclusion of following God. If that is what this verse means then Steven would have never been stoned. Paul and Peter would never have been martyred. No that is not what is meant here. My point was that our government has been given the responsibility by God to punish evil doers. These evil doers should be punished for their deeds. On numerous occasions I have stressed our position in this government "for and by the people". I am in complete agreement with Doreen that we cannot blindly support an erosion of our position as citizens. The means in this occasion is just as important as the ends. In other words if the means makes us slaves, then the ends mean nothing. But nevertheless our government should punish these evil men. God uses governments. Ultimately HE is in control of all that is happening. Ultimately even should we all lose any semblance of freedom, should we all live as slaves, HE is in control. As a Christian it is my job to fight for righteousness. It is my job to be salt and light, not only by my witness in my community, but by my citizenship in a country where the laws are made by my vote. This is where I feel the Church in America has let loose of their responsibility before God. We are paying for that today. So many preachers have stood in the pulpit telling their congregations not be political. The verse above shows that GOD is concerned with government and politics. This is what our Forefathers believed and it is a belief that Christians have abandoned. Thomas Paine said it this way:

Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated. Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to tax) but "to bind us in all cases whatsoever," and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God.

You cannot say I will serve Christ and then ignore the responsibilities God has placed into your hands. It is sinful to watch as a nation where the Christian's vote makes the law not only leaves God, but then makes laws that are evil, all with tacit approval by Christians. The Church has sat by and watched this evil in America. It is because the Church refused to stand that it happened.

Revelation 3 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Little bit farm

-- Little bit farm (littleBit@compworldnet.com), September 19, 2001.

Thank you for the clarification little bit farm, I was rather confused as to why you quoted that verse.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 19, 2001.

I am very sorry I forgot to use quotes. the quote by Thomas Paine started with "Tyranny" and ended at the end of the paragraph on God. You are welcome Diane, I realized by the comments following the verse that followed I needed to explain the verse. I quoted the verse the way I did to keep it in context, rather than just taking the part out I was referring to. I probably should have included an explanation with the verse, but I was in a hurry to get to the livestock auction.

Little bit farm

-- Little bit farm (littleBit@compworldnet.com), September 19, 2001.

Omigod, Doreen, we're in agreement again! You said, "I am 100% behind my country, but I do have serious questions and I don't think this knee jerk patriotism that is being displayed everywhere is of the sort that abides hardship. We must be very careful here......obeying government is one thing, but I still think a war against terrorism is going to make the war on drugs look like a parade for freedom and liberty by comparison. Myself, I want to fight a defined enemy, and I want to be sure of the guilt not just suspicious."

Well said! I also fear that others here, who say that we will encourage more terrorist acts if we don't go attack somebody or other, may be overlooking the fact that we may actually CAUSE a whole lot more terrorist attacks, if we just start bombing innocent citizens of another state.

What would we do, if someone from another country accused one of us of being a terrorist, and threatened the US with attack, if the US didn't promptly send the accused out of the US, into the hands of this other country's prosecutors? Especially if this other country happened to be one whom we detested in the first place?

I think we'd INSIST on very firm proof that our citizen was in fact guilty of the crime he was accused of. Yet, when Afghanistan asks for this type of proof, they are told that the US won't supply it, but the US still threatens them with invasion.

Even worse, President Select Bush is still calling OBL a "suspect"!

I think we need to look a the big (and by that , I mean worldwide) picture. Why did these terrorists do this? Surely 19 people didn't commit suicide, and cause the deaths of 5000 people, without very stong feelings and reasons. I for one would like to find out a lot more of what is driving these folks before committing our sons and daughters, or anyone else, to wantonly attacking innocent citizens of ANY other country.

I also find it curious that there are apparently paper trails of folks arranging their stock portfolios just before the attack in NY and Washington to profit from airlines' dropping stock values. Who were these people, and what part did they play in the attack?

I also want to ask if anyone here can edify me about the ramifications on our freedoms of Dubya declaring war. I heard on the radio yesterday that there are lots of them. For instance, if war is officially declared, I understand, lots of personal freedoms we have come to love and count on will be lost. For instance, the "Justice" Department wants to be allowed to install spy cameras with face scanning hardware and software, for the alleged purpose of spying on all "immigrants". For our security only, of course. But this same equipment would allow the government ot spy on ALL the citizens. Is this what we really want?

I plead a lot of ignorance of the implications of declaring war, other than what I just repeated from the radio. Does anyone here have expertise in this area?

Thanks, JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), September 20, 2001.

Wow, Joe....amazing, huh? :smile:

Please go to the thread entitled "Nat' Emergency...it's offical" or something like that. I put the directive (eo) and the links to the EO's that delineate what kind of freedoms we lost.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), September 20, 2001.

In our country, treason is punishable by death, so accusing someone of being a traitor is quite serious. Should we put to death those who don't agree with our thought?

I believe it was Patrick Henry who said, "I do not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it."

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), September 21, 2001.

Diane, did you really mean it when you said "MY GOD held those buildings up so so many people could escape this dispicable act."? I hate to tell you, but that is the most far fetched statement I've heard in some time. Do you really think God protected all the people who were late to work, while allowing those who were punctual to die?

And if God were doing His job, wouldn't he have protected ALL the people in the attack? Or, better yet, counselled both us US folks and whoever attacked us to be nice to each other in the first place? Nice try, God. Close, but no cigar...

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), September 22, 2001.

Doreen, thanks for sending me to the other thread. Leslie, am I a traitor if I don't BLINDLY follow whatever course President Select Bush decides to take, even if it's illegal, stupid, politically motivated, or otherwise stupid?

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), September 22, 2001.

Well JOJ I am just a "far-fetched" kind of person ;>).

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 23, 2001.

I like you anyway, Miss Far-fetched. JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), September 24, 2001.