One of my fiance's colleagues is determined to join the Army, and join it now. His wife, who is due to have a baby within a few months, is distraught and can't believe she married a man who would - in her mind - abandon her and their infant child.

C and I discussed the topic this morning. He thinks the man is being completely reasonable. I tend to see his wife's point of view. Currently, there is no dire need for enlisted men - at this point, we've only called up a portion of the Reserves. I said, "C, do you think that you can serve your country as well, and be as dutiful an American, by staying State-side, working hard, and supporting your wife and child?" He was emphatic that it was not the same, and that he would enlist in a heartbeat.

Now, I'm not sure how I feel about this. I would support his choice, but at the same time, if I were pregnant or we had small children, I would not be thrilled about his going to war.

What do y'all think? Is there a balance between honoring your duty to your country if that means neglecting your duties at home?

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

Answers

But, his country doesn't NEED him to enlist. What is this? Some sort of WWII "Over There" fantasy? It's ridiculous.

If he ENLISTS now, he'll still be in Kansas running ten miles a day when this whole thing is over.

If he wants to help his country, suggest he buy some stock.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

See, that's what I say. If there's no NEED for enlisted men, then why enlist? I think you can be just as dutiful if you stay home and do your part, so to speak, for your family and the economy.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

Y'all, I've been trying to figure this out for years. Every man in my life is excited about the idea of fighting for his country. There's a reason Band of Brothers is so successful, considering they have shown not one bare boob.

My little brother is enlisted. My Partner is on inactive reserves, having only separated from the AF 2 years ago. They have both said, several times, that they will go fight if needed. And they get this weird gleam in their eyes when they say it.

I'm freaked all the hell out.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

As y'all know, I freaked out when The Smoker started talking about enlisting. He has since stopped, thank goodness, on the grounds that extra troops, ground or otherwise, are not necessarily going to solve the problem.

I think it might be a guy thing -- this idea that you can prove yourself all manly by fighting. I mean, there were men who, for a variety of reasons, did not fight in World War II. My father's father went all over the country doing things for Western Union (his employer) and the Army, and as far as I know my dad, who served in the Marines 1969-71, never thought the less of him for it. But from what we hear a half-century on you'd think there wasn't a man left in this country between '41 and '45.

We need Mike to pop in on this.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

It's sort of a guy thing, and sort of a cultural thing.

A bona-fide war is a defining moment of a generation. Your grandfathers might not have fought in World War II, or your dads in Vietnam, but you've probably asked them, "What did you do during the war?" So clearly, it's an important event and decision, on an individual level as well as a national one.

That's the cultural aspect. The guy part comes when you get pissed off and decide that your duty as a male is to make the world safe for democracy, even if it risks your life. This is the first time since World War II that our country faces this kind of threat to national security, and the macho thing to do is enlist.

The "macho" point is really a big deal. If the most important thing in the world now is this fight, and the most critical place to be is in the army, it's a lot easier to make the decision to enlist because that's the manly, heroic thing to do. And what man doesn't want to be a hero?

(Of course, then you get the Vietnams, where the attitudes change in a hurry. But that's another story. Maybe.)

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

i don't think it's so much wanting to be a hero, but a route to serve the country. yes, heros may develop from that route but it is an option that is well established, well organized to serve and show your commitment to the country. the desire to enlist may be a desire to do something, anything to help and not just be glory-lust

would i enlist with a wife and child at home? i don't know. but i also wouldn't feel right not doing anything when an active option was there for me to take advantage of

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

On the other hand...

The macho thing is not always the right thing (duh). I don't think a huge army will make too much of a difference. At least, I hope it doesn't. If we start needing to draft people, things are going very badly and the conflict has widened considerably. There are plenty of things that can be done to help the cause right here at home.

In other words, were I C's colleagues, I wouldn't enlist. I'm guessing his family needs him more than the armed forces.

(Of course, I'm not the husband of an expectant wife, and I'm still not enlisting. FWIW).

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

Honestly, T, I read your anecdote and wondered if things were going well at home between C's colleague and his wife.

The real question is, would he become a volunteer fireman? God knows we need them now. I'd give him the number of my local department that lost 12 of 30 men.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

My husband has stated that he has no desire to enlist until they start drafting people, which is highly unlikely. But if they do, he says he would enlist so that "guys with kids don't have to go."

Obviously I'm not a guy, so I don't know the macho factors that would drive one to enlist even with the impending birth of his first child. But I think that guy is being rash, and romanticizing Army life. There is no need for him to enlist at this time. I think someone enlisting today will probably never see action at all in this conflict. And I think once he realized that, he would sincerely regret joining up -- and even worse, regret missing important moments with his wife and new child.

Of course it seems really bad to criticize someone for wanting to serve his country, but I think he needs to know he can't join up just because he wants to fight THIS fight. It doesn't work like that. He should carefully consider the personal and familial ramifications of turning his life over to the Army for 2+ years.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

Exactly. I just don't think you serve your country any less by doing things for the homefront, as it's now officially called. You can be a volunteer firefighter, you can volunteer for the Red Cross, you can give your support to the military. I do think that people have romanticized Serving Our Country to the point where being in uniform is the only way to serve. I think it's much, much broader than that, and that serving your home and your family - your American ideals - is just as worthy, and definitely as necessary.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

T - I totally agree. I can understand wanting to enlist if there was a NEED, but otherwise, the economy needs you too. Oh, and your family.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2001

Just a thought to put out there, but perhaps by enlisting, a person can do more for his or her family than by staying at home. From a certain point of view, protecting the freedom and ideals of the US by enlisting and serving, is doing more for that family and its future than staying at home and being a good parent.

That's a bit more patriotic than I usually get, but I can understand the argument. To some, the country we live in is more important than the family. And on that hierarchy, protecting the country is, in fact, protecting the family.

I also think it's presumptuous to assume that he wants to fight in this war. Enrollment in the armed forces is at a 30-year low, and they do need people. However, a good portion of those people won't be deployed to Afghanistan. Certainly, a person who enlists needs to realize that there's a good chance (s)he'll be stationed elsewhere, and that, just by enlisting, (s)he'll be helping the US.

Everybody seems to want to help with this. Many people have been turned away from volunteering to clean up the rubble, and the blood banks have been refusing a lot of donors. Lots of people can't contribute money, but are looking for other ways to help. Enlisting in the armed forces is something that any person can do. It's easy, and you can trust that the US will use you where you'll be most effective. Even if somebody ends up stationed in Boise, he can still believe that him being there helps the cause.

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2001

Okay, y'all, this probably doesn't go in this thread, but I'm a little freaked out.

G (the now-Ex) called me Thursday night, a tad drunk, and told me that he had gotten his papers from Philly. (He's moving there next weekend, after working here in the Dallas area for the Navy for the last 12 years. He'll be in a squadron in Philly, working on planes.)

He said that he hadn't realized the planes he was going to be working on carry bombs. Then the commanding officer of his new unit called to welcome him aboard, and G asked him about the fact that this Squadron has been involved in every conflict since time began.

His CO's response? "Yeah, how do you feel about us being involved over in THIS deal?" When G pressed him for details, the CO said he couldn't talk about it over an unsecured line.

Geez. I mean, I don't want to be married to the guy anymore, obviously, but we've always been good friends, and I certainly don't want anything to happen to him. He's telling me not to worry until he gets up there and finds out more details, and that even if he has to go, the planes are too big for carriers, so he'd most likely be stationed on land, far away from any fighting.

It made me feel a little better, but not much. Although he did make me laugh when he said, "yeah, I'll probably be over in Italy or something, drinking mai tais."

Mai tais, y'all. In Italy. Um, yeah.

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2001

Mai tais, y'all. In Italy. Um, yeah.

Now... that is very funny. Damn. "Yeah, don't worry about me. I'll most likely be sitting around in India, eating cheeseburgers."

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2001

I served in the military. If you know people who are all gung-ho about enlisting, ask them to consider the following:

1. They will have an almost nil chance of actually getting anywhere close to a combat zone.

2. Many enlisted men in the military who have a family and only the military pay to live on often live below the poverty level. There are sailors stationed in San Diego who have to live in Mexico to have decent living accomodations.

3. There are pilots in the Air Force who spend up to 75% of their time away from their family as a way of life, not just during international crises.

4. They would be living intimately with people who they wouldn't give the time of day to if they saw them in civilian life.

If these macho guys want to really show their support of the military lifestyle, I would suggest they do one of the following things.

1. Leave the fighting to the people who know who to do it; the people already in the military.

2. Call up a local military base and offer to provide free baby - sitting for people whose spouses are being deployed.

3. Write their congressman and ask them to support a bill that would provide decent wages for military members.

We have always had enough people in the military, what we have lacked at times are civilians who support and fight for those in the armed forces.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2001

Here fucking here!

Chris, as an ex "dependent" spouse, thank you for pointing all that out. You the man.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2001

The MOC thus spoke:

We have always had enough people in the military, what we have lacked at times are civilians who support and fight for those in the armed forces.

Is this true? I believe I read recently that we're at a 30-year low for armed forces enrollment. I'm afraid I don't have a source on this, but I don't find it hard to believe that fewer young men are joining the forces nowadays. The thrill of seeing exotic places is gone, since we can pretty much fly there. The thrill of serving ones country is lessened now that we don't have a major superpower to serve against.

I'm glad that there are men and women out there who want to serve the US, without regard to monetary gain. I'm glad that there're men out there willing to risk life and limb to protect the sovereignty of this country. I think there's a reason the military struggles so hard to recruit any person who might not know what they want to do with their lives. I also think it's a good way to spend your post high-school years if you're not going to college.

If you want to help your country, there is lots that you can do without enlisting, but in the end, I think if "protecting my country" is your goal, then enlisting is the best choice.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2001

From personal observation, the most common reasons for joining were to get money for college or to support a new baby/expectant mother. Or both.

And I don't know the statistics, but I do know that the Army saw a surge in recruits in the past year due to their "Army of one" ad campaign.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2001

I'm not very up to date with the recruiting numbers, but I think any raw numbers have to be compared to force reduction percentages. We have have fewer people enlisting, but still be meeting recruitment goals given the current ize of the military.

I never met anyone in the military who was anti-American, but I also never met anyone who chose the military over, say, a four year scholarship to college. The motivation for most people to join, echoing whatRobyn said, was usually to support a new family or do avoid working for minimum wage. As has always been the case, the people who fight and die for our country are usually from the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. Obviously, this is not true for everyone in the military, but the majority of people I met who enlisted did so with the hope that the military would provide a better life then would have otherwise been the case.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2001

... or, they realized that their life was not going in the direction it should be, and figured basic training would a cheap way to kick their coke habit. Seriously.

Ahem. Not that I, uh, used to know anyone like that.

And no, I'm not in the military, so y'all just hush now.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2001

If I had a coke habit, I wouldn't let any sadomasochistic drill sargents any damn where near my shaky, withdrawing ass. I mean, man.

But anyway. My boyfriend is enlisting, in the Marines. He's been talking about becoming an NYC cop for quite awhile, and signed up to take the examinations required before Sept. 11. He became especially intent after the city was attacked, and thought that it was the best way he could help -- he was so incredibly frustrated, the week after, when we were turned away, time and again, when we offered help. Donating food and clothing and blood and all the other things we did wasn't enough for him.

Suddenly, though, he's switched gears. He wants to be a Marine. He wants to serve his country, support his leaders, and get money for college. In that order, I suppose. He sees it as being on a larger scale than serving as a police officer. He sees it as a way to be noble, to commit, to be a part of this. To help.

I don't purport to understand it. Not entirely. But I can see what he means.

And I'm scared to death. I don't want him to go. But -- but I'm proud of him. He's committing a huge chunk of his life to doing something he feels is going to make a difference.

But Jesus, I'm scared.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2001

So, this pregnant acquaintance, did she marry a hero? In his mind, he isn't abandoning his expecting wife. In his mind, he's giving his family a hero. I think this woman married a hero, and now she has to decide if she wants to remain married to a hero. I think this is why we are told to be careful, because we may get what we wish for.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2001

Honestly, T, I read your anecdote and wondered if things were going well at home between C's colleague and his wife.

See now I don't think that's what this is. My brother, who is an overjoyed father to an almost 1 year old baby is engaged to be married to a fiance he loves very much. But he has also said that he'd go fight for our country without a second thought. I don't think that chosing to do one is an automatic dismissal of importance of another. I think it's very possible for a man to love his wife and child and feel the need to put his life at risk to defend his country. Whether I agree with it, I don't know. I can see both sides. Even being a mother, with a child who loves her father, leaves me confused. Not that I want the WildChild to grow up without her daddy, but I don't know if I'd have the heart to tell him 'no' if he truly wanted me to give him permission.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2001

If we were in a situation where the United States needed C to serve, I would encourage him to go without a second thought, regardless of our family situation. But as we were just on the cusp of any kind of attack and there are thousands of soldiers at the ready, I think that it is equally important to serve your country through your work and your support of your family.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2001

Look, I'm not trying to be Gloria Steinam, but here's why this thread annoys me: This romantic notion of men shipping off to war with a picture of Rita Hayworth in his locker and leaving the little woman on the dock with a baby on her hip.

I mean, y'all, I know they don't put women on the front lines (or do they? did they change that rule?) but you do understand that I could go enlist just as easily as my brother, right? And that would leave the MOC here crying in his cheese, because he knows that I would be stacking payloads in Iowa while he continued to work at his job and generate the American dollar.

What bothers me is theme of Man Defending His Country. This will just not be that kind of war, will it? And what I'm saying is, that if it is? I'm going. I've had the hots for Rita Hayworth since I was eight years old.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2001

My brother, who is an overjoyed father to an almost 1 year old baby is engaged to be married to a fiance he loves very much. But he has also said that he'd go fight for our country without a second thought.

Missy, if we needed your brother to fight, I'd certainly want him to have that attitude; but that's clearly not the case now. It may be next month or next year, but it's not now. And the fact that this guy is so rarin' to go just makes me wonder, that's all.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2001

And y'all, I'm all for the use of the "anon" handle in the tawdry threads, but I don't think it's necessary for the discussion threads. It's one thing to want to hide your identity when sharing your fetish for midget bondage - it's a whole other issue when sharing your opinion on more mainstream matters. That is all.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2001

When I was in the militray I worked at a base that a lot of other branches worked at, so I had the opportunity to talk to guys in the navy, army, marines, etc.. I talked to a lot of special forces guys, as well as Vietnam and Desert Storm vets. They all had the same loathing for gung ho heros who want to "fight for their country".

You know why? Because these guys and been in combat. They remembered being cold and hungry and scared. They still had nightmares about leaving their friends to die in rice paddies because it was the only way to save everyone else. And they knew what it takes to actually kill another human being and the emotional scars it leaves.

And they all said the same thing. War is a necessary evil. But we should do everything else possible before going to war. And the gung ho guys are usually the ones crying for their mamas the first time a burst of machine gun fire rips through the chest of the man next to them.

-- Anonymous, September 26, 2001

Al, what's the reasoning behind women not fighting in the front lines? Because I'm with you on this and I don't know it. Is it the old "too emotional, especially at that time of the month" chestnut? Not as strong? Because it's crap. A woman can ceretainly carry a gun and there are weak (physically I mean) men just as there are strong women. Just as some men are translators or clerks for their country then some women should be allowed to be on the front lines.

If it came down to one of us enlisting, if the country was in need of more people, it would probably be me. We are both military children (in fact, BOTH of _r's parents were Marines) and we know what we'd be getting into. But _r is deaf in one ear and probably wouldn't be taken. I'm just fat, that can be run off. I don't want to be on the front lines, I'm a patriot but I want to come back home, but I don't want to be held back because I have ovaries. I want to be held back because what few skills I have are more useful elsewhere. (Is there a need for sarcasm and poor comma usage skills in the military?)

-- Anonymous, September 26, 2001

"you mother wears army boots"

no she doesn't, my mom is a Marine

best gradeschool comback, ever

-- Anonymous, September 27, 2001

God bless you and all that are willing to die for America and the freedoms allowed to us by people like you. Thank you for holding a light to freedom for my loved ones and myself.

I work on Wall Street as a computer operations analyst. I work for a bunch of accountants, of which 1/3 are from other countries. That’s fine, we are the melting pot of the America but if asked what they’re willing to sacrifice for there freedom in the United States I don’t think many would be willing to do much more that trade the latest high yield stocks.

I volunteered at Ground Zero and was working at the WTC site by the 14th of September. I got in because of 8 years of mountaineering and caving experience, so I went to the site with a bunch of repelling gear and harnesses and awaited my orders. USAR teams were in place so I was told that I would not be utilized for repelling but that I should go to the pile where WTC 2 was and work bucket brigaded. After a 20 hour shift I got some sleep in the Burger King across the street from the pile. This was the same Burger King that was turned into the first triage center. It later turned into a supply depot. I was re assigned there and helped distribute respirators, masks, dry clothes, welder’s equipment, boots, or just an ear. I stayed for 10 days and nights.

I did my small part but will always remember the people who said things like, “thanks for the new filters brother”, or “be safe out their brother”. I now know what is meant by brother hood. The different teams of personnel working in ground zero were not concerned with color, class, creed, but rather how hard they could push themselves. We worked as one, for one goal, to recover as many people left as possible and to ensure the safety of all who were risking life and limb to accomplish that goal.

I am enlisting in the Marine Corp Reserves as Active Ready. I need to pay down some debt before I go in so as to not totally burden my wife while I am away. This will be difficult for her but she told me that she would move to base with me once my MOS training is completed. I have narrowed my MOS selection to all combat related infantry, NBC, or communications. I am 33 years old and I want to serve my country now more than ever. I will do what it takes to show the world that America is united and strong.

I have found that for all my faults, my wife has always supported me. I have not always gotten along with her family, yet she stood by me. I have spent money that I new I should not have, but she was there. My wife and I make this decision about the military together. She will have to endure hardships that I never thought about before. But I know we will be better people because of this. Personally, I want to be able to tell our children that I helped America become a safer place.

This Thanksgiving I had so much to be thankful for, freedom, liberty, health, family, and my wife. I give thanks to all those currently in the military serving our country and especially to all the spouses who endured another holiday without their loved one.

God bless, Gods speed my fallen country men,

Morgan

-- Anonymous, December 01, 2001

Is anyone still responding to this web page? If so, my fiance is leaving in a month for the Marines and I REALLY REALLY need to talk to someone about it.

-- Anonymous, September 10, 2002