Just got a Leica Motor-M and I'm having serious problems with M4-2/P bodies, even though Leica claims compatability. Need thoughts, ideas, and suggestions before I give up and return it.

On the M4-2: basically doesn't work at all. With the winder mounted and 'on', as soon as I push the shutter button the first shutter curtain opens about 1/8th inch and then everything freezes - even the manual wind is locked until I remove the motor, at which point the shutter completes the firing cycle and works normally with manual wind.

On the M4-P: The motor wind/exposure sequence seems normal externally, but I get very uneven exposures across individual pictures and from one frame to the next.

Looking through the camera with the back open while test-firing I can see that (intermittently but up to 90% of the time) the shutter is not opening or only opening over part of the frame - obviously the presence of the motor is fouling the movement of the shutter curtains in some way. If I turn the motor off and fire and wind manually I get one 'bad' exposure and then the shutter begins operating normally again.

This happens in both continuous and single-frame shooting. It also happens at both motor speeds. If I mash down on the shutter button a little, which slows the motor action by adding resistance, it lessens the problem somewhat in continuous sequences. But it's pretty severe when I just lightly ride the shutter button as Leica recommends.

Both cameras have been working fine without the motor (no uneven exposures from frame to frame or across a frame).

If it's just something in the motor that needs a warranty adjustment, that's cool, but I don't want to have to send both BODIES in for CLAs jsut so they'll work with the motor, especially since they are working fine otherwise.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), September 22, 2001

Answers

got a Leica Motor-M and I'm having serious problems with M4-2/P bodies,

I'd get a CLA on the M4-P. If the problems clear up then you know a CLA on the M4-2 is the way to go. If the CLA doesn't fix the M4-P, then you've got a faulty motor.

I use the motor on both my M6 0.85 TTL and M4-P - works flawlessly on both, although there is a major caveat that you will get smearing on the LHS of the frame for continuous shots on the slower "I" setting.

See my FAQ entry on the new motor at: nemeng.com/leica/#033b

-- Andrew Nemeth (azn@nemeng.com), September 22, 2001.

I would suggest - although you may not want to hear this - dropping the motor and getting a rapidwinder. If your cameras work OK without the motor they should do so with it, it must be a matter of the motor tensioning something before the shutter completes its travel. The fact that you get a bad exposure if you run the camera manually would suggest that the motor does indeed do just that. The rapidwinder does nothing of this nature, it is completely inert until you decide to wind on.

As I said, I'm sure it's not the response you wanted, but what the hell, eh?

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), September 22, 2001.

The M camera has always been difficult add a power winder to as it was never designed with one in mind. Leica tried in the late fifties and gave up. An American tech came up with one that Leica eventually bought out. The late seventies M-Winder caused similar problems during its production as well. Some users could use it with no problems while others had your experiences. There is no direct connection between the camera and the motor/winder to properly signal when the motor/winder should do its stuff. What "should" happen is that the shutter mechanism "should" keep the winding mechanism locked until the shutter has completed its cycle. Unfortunately on many cameras the winding mechanism is allowed to work before the shutter has finished. The results are as you have reported.

There are two sources of the problem. First the motor/winder itself is not switching from high operating torque to low waiting torque after the shutter has been reset. Second the camera is releasing the winding mechanism too soon. The only way to properly repair this is to send both the motor/winder and the suspect cameras back to Leica for adjustments.

I had similar problems when I added a M-Winder to my old M4-2. I sent the camera back and everything tested out fine without the winder installed but as soon as the winder was attached, all heck broke loose. My tech, top Leica tech in Canada with decades of experience, advised me as circumspectly as he could (they were the official distributor) that I only should use the device as a single shot device. "Make sure you completely remove your finger each time." he stated as carefully as he could, "And never use it below 1/50!"

The M camera needs to be redesigned with an electric connection between the motor and camera that properly signals when the shutter completes its cycle. The M2-M and M4-M cameras had such a connection. All strictly mechanical cameras have similar problems. Nikon did not recommend using a motorised F camera at speeds slower than the flash sync and I only had problems below 1/50 with my M4-2 as well.

Final advice? Return the M-Motor and get a Rapidwinder. Smooth as silk and no batteries!

http://www.rapidwinder.com/

Cheers,

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), September 22, 2001.

I have a motor M on each of my M6TTL bodies, and have had no problems - not even the LHS "smearing" Andrew is referring to, even at very low shutter speeds. Since it gives you the same problem on both bodies, I'd suspect a faulty drive.

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), September 22, 2001.

I have 2 motor-winders for my M6's. One is a Winder M4-2(late) which used to smack like a firecracker until I took it apart and adjusted it after getting some instructions on the web, and now it's as quiet as my other winder, a Winder-M. Both were bought used and together cost less than one of the new winders. That was a good thing for me, as they have both sat unused since I got the Hexar RF.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), September 22, 2001.

The short version: Thanks all. I took the motor back and exchanged it for a third-version (big-nose) 28, which is outstanding and cheered me up no end.

The long version: Andrew, I ALWAYS check your website with any questions I have - and direct others there, too. The bit on how to load a Leica kept me from giving up on them months ago and is the single best piece of information I've ever gotten off the Internet.

But in addition to the 'sync' problems, I also found the Motor-M to be very uncomfortable (my whole right hand ached after a day of shooting around and over the "grip").

And I've sort of come to the conclusion that, despite their excellence in mechanics and optics, when it comes to electronics sometimes Leica just has a hard time pushing two electrons through the same wire at the same time. =?8^o

So I'm back to thumbwound unmetered bodies, .72 finders, non-APO, non- ASPH 'Walter Mandler' lenses --- and I think I'll just relax, enjoy them and take pictures for a while.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), September 25, 2001.

I notice this has been linked on the LUG for people seeking M-Motor reviews, so an update is in order.

I've since tried my two bodies on an M4-2 Winder - and they both had the same problems. In comparison, I've also tried an M6 on that same M4-2 winder, and it worked fine. And every time I've tried the new M- motor on an M6 it has worked fine.

So the weak link is my 20-24 year-old bodies - not the Motor-M.

Howver I still, personally, don't like the front grippy-thing. If I get desperate for a motor I will get the bodies adjusted and then get the older, below-the-camera motor. Or get a T.A. rapidwinder.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), November 17, 2001.

Andy,I think I was at Werner's the same time as you on Leica Day. In any event, that was the first time I held both the Motor M and the Hand grip M. Maybe it's just my hand, but I thought the grip on the motor placed the hand too low on the camera so that my trigger finger had to stretch uncomfortably far to reach the shutter release. It felt as if the shutter release needed to be on the grip itself, or else the grip needed to be higher on the camera. On the other hand, I did not experience any difficulty reaching the shutter release with the Hand grip M. Perhaps that's why your hand hurt after using the motor for a day. Not the best designed motor, eh?

-- Peter B. Goldstein (peter.goldstein@us.cgeyc.com), November 19, 2001.

I'm a techno-dummy, so here's my raw experience with the new motordrive for what it is worth. I tried it first with my old (c. 1985-86) M6 and it didn't work. Put it on my new M6 TTL and it was just fine. My impression is that this motor is touchy. Your Leica has to be adjusted just so or it is disfunctional.

So I suggest this: Unless you have an out of the box M-6 TLL, don't buy the motor. Get a Rapidwinder instead. The Rapidwinder is cheaper, doesn't need batteries and is built and looked after by absolute saints (Tom and Tuulikki) who will service the Rapidwinder forever. (The Leica motor does have a 5 year guarantee I must mention to be fair.)

Though a Rapidwinder fanatic, I wanted the motor for a number of reasons I thought important (that the motor works better with lens without focusing tabs was one among other considerations). I liked the feel of the thing when I tested it.

Nevertheless, I bought my motor with extreme trepedation, having heard enough horror stories about old motors and a few about the new one.

The motor has been sitting my M6 TTL (0.58) for 2 months with no problems thus far. It is the quietest auto-winder I have ever used, except for that of the Konica Hexar AF (not RF). It is not as heavy as I expected. It is also nicely balanced. Unlike the old motor, it sits up when you have a lens on the camera. I do strongly recommend getting an Abrahamsson Softie button to go with this motor. The grip is a handful and the Softie helps in shooting.

Let me emphasize this: If your M-42 or P, or old M-6 is working fine, don't bother spending your money getting it adjusted to this new motor. Just get a Rapidwinder. I think Leica was way too optimistic in saying the new motor would work on its older M's that were made for the older motors. Theory is one thing, but working reality is quite another.

I'd like to hear more from people using the motor. One thing I am especially interested in is whether changing back and forth between Rapidwinder and motor caused any problems.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), November 23, 2001.

The problem is likely from the unused winder coupling in the old body. A thorough lubrication should do the trick. I once had an M4-2 and my Tom A rapidwinder wouldn't advance simply because the coupling was gummed up from disuse. Try a CLA.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), November 23, 2001.