I just went to pick up the goats CD & T booster shot. Last time I went I paid $5 each and this time they charged me $10 a piece. I did complain be it didn't help. They just said they had under charged me the last time.

Now I looked up the cost of the CD&T vaccination in my vet supply catalog and know that a 25 dose vial costs about $5. I took into account that I only have 2 goats and that I would have to pay aprox. $15 shipping and handling = $20 total. So originally I decided to just get it done at the vets this year. Then next year when I reorder all the dog vaccines I could order the CD&T at the same time and probably get 2 years worth of use out of the vial before it went pasted its use by date.

So anyway now I've paid $30 to have both goats vaccinated (2 shots 3 weeks apart). I could have just ordered a vial , used 2 of the doses and thrown the other 23 doses away and still be $10 ahead. Anyway, I'm just plain mad right now.

I feel totally ripped off. At $10 a pop on a 25 dose vial the vet is making a $245 profit on the $5 vial. I know the vets have a high mark up but that's way over the top.

Sorry to moan so. I'll get over it eventually.

Anita

-- anita (anitaholton@mindspring.com), September 24, 2001

Answers

Please remember that the vet has all sorts of overhead, and the time it takes to treat 25 animals. The profit would be much less than $245. Sometimes "paying the price" is worth some of the added perks. If I had many animals, I'd certainly want a good relationship with a quality vet, and would not hesitate to pay a bit extra to maintain that relationship.

Perhaps find a neighbor with goats and share the expense.

-- Dawg (Dawg@not.com), September 24, 2001.

Also, remember that a lot of vet income comes from meds in general. Yes, it seems like they ripped you off, but you have to think of the time you call them out at 1 AM for a sick animal. But having said all this, I order anything that I need from the vet supply catalogues and only get the Rx stuff from the vet.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), September 24, 2001.

Jennifer: I do keep in mind the times I have to call the vet at 1 AM. I also remember that taking a dog into the emergency vet during the middle of the night cost $300 and they basically just kept her for observation (snake bite). The time I had to take the dog into the vets during the middle of the night for bloat - $2000. The time a dogs sticthces came undone after hours - $300. Not to mention all the other stuff that has been done over the years. Treated my oldest dog for breast cancer.

Yes, the vets have a lot of over head and I can appreciate that, especially as someone who worked as kennel help during my younger days. However, I think a shot that would cost me 20 cents and the same shot they charge me $10 for is one heck of a mark up.

In the last month I've spent over $300 at the vets between dogs and goats.

Anita

-- anita (anitaholton@mindspring.com), September 24, 2001.

Anita, I guess it is the same as when you are in the hospital and get charged $8 for an asprin! They have to go to school for years, pay all the overhead, cover the costs of folks who don't pay, etc. Sigh. No way around it sometimes. Jan

-- Jan in CO (Janice12@aol.com), September 24, 2001.

Consider yourself lucky. Around here (Chicagoland), they'd tell you they couldn't give you the shots until they inspected the goats--$35 each.

-- Gail (Quadrupets@aol.com), September 24, 2001.

I agree that many times we can be ripped off by vets...especially on such simple things as vaccinations. I also agree that a good (goat- savvy) one is worth his/her weight when you can get them to come out in an emergency situation and have fast, successful results....and Murphy's Law will tell you that those emergencies always happen on Sundays and holidays! It's a two-edged sword, for sure! My husband and I were disappointed and frustrated when Wisconsin law changed a couple of years ago and no longer allows us to buy Rabies vaccines and vaccinate our dogs ourselves (we are a licensed kennel). At first our vet wanted us to bring 2-3 dogs in at a time, charging an office call for each visit...we told him that was outrageous...that he should just come out to and charge a barn call...he didn't want to, but we talked him into it.... had to pay about three times what it would've cost had we been able to do it ourselves, but our hands were tied..can't get a renewed license without rabies vaccines, and can't get rabies vaccines without the vet! As for the CDT... don't you have a farm supply store nearby where you can buy it? Virtually ALL farm stores and some feedmills carry CDT in their refrigerated vaccine section...and a small bottle is typically less than $3 or $4...and needles and syringes are just pennies. I don't see why you'd be paying $20 for a small bottle of CDT...even if it was shipped from a catalog order. Patty Prairie Oak Miniatures http://www.minifarm.com/prairie_oak Visit our Message board http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Littlegoats moderator

-- Patty (littlegoats@wi.rr.com), September 24, 2001.

$10 sounds like a bargain for animal shots. Don't have goats, but the pets cost $45 each plus more for the general examination they get before the shots plus the appointment fee. In the last ten years I figure I've at least bought the vet a new boat, but I'm not going to complain he's taken my very sick animals home at times and stayed up all night with them. Care like that is priceless.

-- debra in ks (windfish@toto.net), September 24, 2001.

$45 here for a farm call and then meds and diagnostic time extra. Vaccinating your own animals can really save money, I agree. However, nothing like having that expert help available when you really need it.

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_shepeish@hotmail.com), September 24, 2001.

When we just had 2 goats I had the vets give the shots and it was about the same cost. We now give our own, as it is much cheaper. Most of the time you can find CD&T at a local feedstore, would just need to keep in cold on the way home. I can get a 25 dose bottle for around $8 and no shipping cost involved.

-- Leslie in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), September 24, 2001.

In my many experiences with vets in 3 different states I can say that most vets try to make it affordable as possible for folks. Our last ve tin VA w eused before we moved was great, he was affordable and just very kind and generous. However, there are some who do charge more because they need to offset costs of their state of the art facilities, which is fine, but usually those vets are so costly that unless its life threatening and we need that technology we usually stay with our country vets. heck, with raising goats we usually do most of it ourselves and purchase medical products from jeffers, PBS, etc.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), September 24, 2001.

Anita, You can buy Clostridium C and D plus tetnus at most feed and supply places like your local Coop. You can buy the same at most of the "discount" farm stores, like Atwoods, Orschlen's, etc.. They sell disposable syinges and needles too. Vets have a tough job and are so busy, so I try to only call them when it is serious. It is hard to find a good goat vet around here. Giving my own shots and deworming is also a cost saver that helps me and the goats stretch our resources. Cheer up the goats are healthy and next year you will save a lot of money.

-- Karen in Kansas (kansasgoats@iwon.com), September 24, 2001.

How much madder would you be Anita, if you had seen that in Jefferslivestock.com the shipping is free :) If you don't order alot, the basic shipping is just $3.95! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), September 24, 2001.

Anita: Even with only a few goats, you will keep them healthier and enjoy them more by doing most of your vet work. It is really not that hard once you learn some basic diagnosis and treatments. We have saved goats from death's door on our own when the vet didn't have time to treat a goat: too busy with horses. I recommend you join some goat email list groups. There are some good ones on yahoo. Go to www.cybergoat.com for links to goups by breed of goat. There are also lists for herbal goat care. www.goatworld.com also has many good links and also has an emergecy reference service to hook you up with goat health specialists in your area that volunteer for on-site or phone support. We keep all our own goat medications on hand and routinely do our own vaccinating and worming. We only use the vet when we encounter something we haven't seen before or for things like drawing blood for CAE testing.

The CD&T has a pretty good shelf life if stored properly.

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), September 24, 2001.

Anita, Right now we use a vet who does most of his business at the racetrack. He gets top dollar for everything and is unavailable after hours. Only his staff has his home phone and beeper numbers(I assume as well as some choice clients). We cannot get ahold of him after hours in case of emergency. He has been my husband's vet for as long as he can remember(since the vet graduated, basically). He charges us full price for everything. I've asked him about certain treaments and he's replied that he has no idea because he doesn't have time to keep up with new stuff. We had a cat hit by a car during business hours. I knew the cat would not survive, but my husband brought him to the vet to be put down. The vet talked him into trying to keep it alive, so we were charged for the office visit, IV, hotpad, painkillers, and putting the cat down. This is the vet I organized that convoy for when his horses were shot by the two teenagers! What a difference from a different vet I used for the first time (before I got with my husband) who gave two kittens their shots, tested them for feline lukemia, found them positive, discussed it over the phone with me for 20 minutes, then put them down; all for $0. I never expected that from a vet, I expected to be charged for the shots, tests, and putting down, but he didn't charge for any of it. Now, when it's up to me, I happily pay MY vet instead of bringing my animals to HIS vet if I can't take care of things on my own. Some vets are so lenient, you can get the rabies shots and administer them yourself as well. Others charge top dollar no matter what or who you are. Shop around and do what you can on your own.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), September 25, 2001.

I don't know what supply catalogs you're using, but they're high! With the catalogs I have, shipping is $5 for all orders under $50 in some catalogs, under $40 in some catalogs. Orders over the $40 or $50 have no shipping charges. You will pay extra for 2nd day air for vaccines ~ about $6/order.

This is from one of my catalogs, KV Vet. What a monster of an url! Cut/copy/paste.

http://www.kvvet.com/kvvet/product_family.asp?family_id=253&pf_id=&0=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D119%26menu%5Fid%3D%26Tree%3D%2CVaccines+%28Livestock%29&mscssid=7NAFJ4U21R698K1QPV8NCQMLWLAT6Q65&Gift=false&Giftid=

You have to remember that you can't compare what the vets charge and what the catalogs charge. Catalog companies order tons of supplies and are able to offer products for less. They also aren't paying off the costs to go to college, and all the overhead the vet has. Malpractice insurance alone is reason enough for the vet's charges.

I've always done the innoculating of my house pets and livestock, but I don't always do my pet hog. I'd have to purchase a 35 dose vial for $20 from the catalogs and the vet only charges $2, whether he gives the shot or I bring it home and do it myself.

None of my vets charge extra for an office visit, but they do have a trip charge if they come out to the ranch.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), September 25, 2001.

Thank you everyone for your input. I'll check out the boards you mentioned and the links to vet supplies. I'm feeling better today. Just sometimes the little things tip you over the edge. We're trying to watch our money and we've ended up spending over $300 this month at the vets. I've got a lot to learn about goats and chickens too! I've learned just about everything I can about dogs, even know how to stitch them up now for minor lacerations.

I enjoyed reading all your posts.

Anita

-- anita (anitaholton@mindspring.com), September 25, 2001.

I've been rip off by vets also, you must learn to take care of sheep and goats yourself. Now I buy the cdt shots from a feed store because I give the lambs 3 shots 4 weeks apart and the mothers sometimes get two. I had a vet out a month ago to put down a ewe, he said he would like to take a blood sample and I had no idea that the blood sample work would cost more than the ewe. He took the sample did check for some thing I wanted him to so it all came back negative and my husband had to put the poor animal down (were not in to that) and it hurt because we become personally attached to the ewes.

-- Debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), September 25, 2001.

Where do you learn to do suturing?

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), September 25, 2001.

To learn to suture, practice your embroidery. Transfer your skills to bananas and anything tougher that you can find. Learn to clean and trim a jagged wound by mending up a pair of jeans that have ripped and then washed. With your larger, tougher animals, you may need pliers to to push a needle through the hide, so make sure you have them in your first aid kit.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), September 25, 2001.

Soni, you can learn simple suturing by buying a chicken at the grocery store. Carefully slit the skin, now with needle and thread, or just purchase some regular animal needles and suture thread, it is very inexpensive, and start sewing. Actually if you also filet some of the meat open it will show you how you have to suture first the meat section together, then stitch up the skin. On the meat section you would use disposable sutures, on the skin you can use either kind, a nice tame animal is easy to remove stitches from an animal that you don't want to get near, use the disposable. If you suture a deep wound only at the skin, it will leave a pocket, unattractive as well as it can harbor bacteria without a drain. We also teach our 4H kids how to give shots IM with oranges, Subq, same orange just with a nylon over it. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), September 25, 2001.

It stinks when stuff like that happens Anita. I have had to learn the hard way too. I can get CD andT vaccine in the 25 dose bottle for $5.99 at our local feed store. I check the date when I buy it, and ask for the longest dated one they have. I have stored it properly, and used it the next season. I only have had 7 animals (sheep and goats) to vaccinate at any one time. Have had to throw out some vaccine, but not each year. Like you said...still cheaper than having it done. I give my dogs and cats the booster shots each year, and worm my animals at home too. We are not allowed to give Rabies shots here either. I do have the vet do my horse's shots...he is an old guy, and I feel he needs a lookin' at once a year anyway. I only do subq shots so far. I think I could do IM but need to practice. An orange is a great idea. Good luck!!

-- Jenny Pipes (Auntjenny6@aol.com), September 25, 2001.

Two weeks ago I castrated a male goat, and put to death a cat whose life I'd managed to extend for months. We need a central database which includes suppliers name a contact #'s. We need instructions which are plain and simple, yet have the capability to address the more complex issues. We need discrete professional adn occasionally legal advice. I'd be willing to take this on, if there were others interested. Send me an email with the words doctor, doctor in the subject line. Let me know what your interests are, your areas of knowledge and your ideas. I'd like to take care of my animals without federal agents intervening. Besides, knowledge is power. Love, Jackie

-- jackie rodzinski (mathilda@att.net), September 30, 2001.

Getting health papers for 15 goats worked out to be about $120.00 The vet came here, but she did not take everyones temperature or anything like that, just looked at the herd for a minute, petted a couple goats that came up to her, and wrote down everyone's name on the health certificate. Now I do appreciate her coming out to do this, but she didn't even check the tattoos though they were on the certificate.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), October 01, 2001.

Heavens! 20 names fit on one health certificate, and my vet charges 5 $ per page! This of course doesn't count the 35$ she charges to come to the farm, but no charge if at the vet office. This would be an inspection only, in which no vet has to take temps, just a visual exam. Next time ask the vet exactly how much the pad of health certificates cost them. Embarass them, for the over run fees! If you let them get away with it, by letting them know you do not know you are being ripped off, what is going to stop them. Even for surgery I will ask my vet if I help can I get a discount. I do all my own after care, even taking sleeping patience home, why leave an animal at the vet overnight and pay for it? Nobody in the vet office comes and checks on your sleeping animal overnight! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), October 01, 2001.

Vicki, all fifteen names were on one health certificate. If I had gotten a separate piece of paper for each doe, it would have been something like 23.50 pr page!!!! That is not counting the milegae, $1.00 per mile, 9 miles, the farm call-about $38.50, and the vet call, I have no idea how much that was, something like $20.00. They let me put all the names on one paper or it would have been over $600.00! Just to go to a show? What really bugged me is that if you lived in WA you didn't need the papers, and we are just over the border. :-/
The other day I got a flyer in the mail that said, startplanning for the scrapie eradication program now! The flyer says that whenever we transport animals across the line, we'll need a health certificate. Guess I should be glad that the vet is in Idaho, so I don't need papers just to take the goats there!!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), October 02, 2001.