OK. I've looked in the archives, and cannot find anything like this. I will try to be "delicate," but I need to know. I have American Alpines. Our big male likes to stand on his hind legs, to scratch his scurs on the beams of his house. About a month ago, I noticed that not only did he have teats (no udder) but they were about an inch and a half long, and an inch and a half in diameter. Like a milking doe's. No udder, just teats, and two of them. I know what the other "equipment" looks like, and these were teats. I reached into the area, and touched one teat. It was not hard or hot. And as soon as I did this, I got "that look" from Sam. My guess is that it is breeding season, and this is a hormone condition. He seems OK otherwise, and has sired eight babies so far.

Is this normal? Have any of you inspected your male goats?

Next question: I have located another person in my area who has the same registered breed, and we want to exchange females. The plan would be, maybe, to let the females run with the male for six weeks, so as to cover two 21 day cycles. I have never done a breeding this way. I take my does in season to Sam, he performs twice, and the doe is returned to her pen. My question about letting everybody run together, aside from the doubt about the actual birthing date is this: If the male has unlimited access to a female in standing heat....aren't "things" going to get a little sore? Or possible injury to delicate tissues?

What do you think? And thank you for your advice.

Mary

-- Mary L. Gonzales (blufrogg@garlic.com), October 13, 2001

Answers

Mary,

i too raise Alpines. I have both French and american. but this condition can happen in any breed of buck. I too have a milky buck as its called. Our sr herdsire, Sweet Dreams Logic magellan was a little over ayr old when i first noticed he has sort of longer and sort of swollen teats las tyr when trimming his hooves before breeding season. i gently squeezed and milk came out. i had read about this but never owned a buck that did this. then this yr he developed half an udder. he also has a good sized teat on that side. nothing wrong. i jsut watch for it getting hot or inflamed, don't want mastitis. But you can't milk them unless you really need to. There is an old saying about them throwing more doe kids and passing on does who milk well. I guess there may be some substance in that as he certainly has done both for our herd.

I let the bucks run with their does during breeding season for about 6-7 weeks. i make sure they are covered first. I have neve rexperienced any type of porblems with irritation etc. in the does.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), October 13, 2001.

Here's another delicate question:

We run scrubby mixed-breed goats on our place to clear the brush and to give us a hard time on a regular basis. We usually buy a different buck every year from a sale.

This year's buck is older, VERY stinky, and very gentle. Our problem with him is that he won't breed. If the does bother him too much, he jumps into an old washtub and goes into fetal position until the doe goes away.

Our little bucks have no problem displaying their ... their ... most private parts. The old buck urinates on his face, but we've never seen his ... his ... most private part ... extend within view. Is it possible that he's a little ... well, LITTLE ... and maybe that's why he isn't breeding? He's very protective of the does as long as they AREN'T in heat.

Thank you.

-- helen (blushing@furiously.now), October 13, 2001.

Enlarged teats or udder and milk is actually alot more normal than you would think. Our deceased buck, Nubian, could eaisly have been milked, and yes it is hormonal and comes from milky lines. They also can get mastitis.

I also pen breed, just put the buck in the pen with the gals I want him to breed. I check for nasty tails on the does in each pen in the morning, since most breedings here in the south happen in the middle of the cool of the nights. We actually get very good breeding dates. And of course Nubians are so vocal that its very easy to hear when something is going on during the day. I would not however exchange females. I would exchange bucks. Does have to travel to be bred simply are more stresed, ovulate less eggs, and since they are you milkers keep them at home. You can eaisly quaranteen your buck after breeding her herd, trim his feet, worm him, and watch him for abscesses. Things you don't really want to be doing to freshly bred does! If he came down with an illness from her herd, only one animal would be lost, with the loss of your does............well you get it. Also being responsible for somebody elses does is a headache! You may have really good breeding dates for her, and she comes to you with "Well sometime from March 15th thru May 15th" :) If her buck is of equal value of yours have the contract read the exchange will be permanant if your buck dies at her place. Other than preexisiting conditons. Another really good idea for you would be to trade young bucks out of each others best does. Or going in together and with Bernice's help finding a bloodline to share to improve your stock. Cleaning her bucks penis before breeding to stop sexually transimitted abortion is another thing to do, and your buck after he comes home. Her does can be immune to chlymydia and it can wipe out your kid crop. Chlorhexiderm is cheap and works really well.

Helen, I would ditch your older buck before you go through breeding season with nobody bred. Some older bucks won't let younger bucks breed, so if he is keeping your young buck away and not breeding them himself, you will go kidless next year. I have never noticed different lenghths or the lack there of :) in bucks. And age has little to do with it, we have had bucks more than able to preform their duty at 9, even though recently sterile. Next time you purchase a buck, watch him carefully, look up on any site about a buck pre breeding exam. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), October 13, 2001.

Vicki, thanks! We've already decided to replace him if the doe most likely to deliver first isn't showing definite signs of pregnancy by next month. And from now on, we may get bucks from private breeders just to make sure someone knows them.

-- helen (embarrassed@here.now), October 13, 2001.

Helen, no offense intended, but are you sure he has *all* the equipment necessary to breed? If he's a wether he may act a little bucky but he can't breed. Otherwise, how old is he? Ancient? Maybe he's too old too breed. Have you ever had kids from this buck? You say he is little, do you mean his testicles? If they are small and shriveled he is probably infetile and won't be able to breed.

About the teats, these are just rudimentary teats. every normal buck has them, just as most boys and men have two nipples that they will never need to use!

Pen breeding- I've never noticed the doe minding the constant attention of the bucks. Besides, usually more than one doe comes into heat at the same time. Also, the actual breeding only lasts about 5- 10 seconds, and the bucks cannot breed constantly, they have to refuel first. My objection to pen breeding is that I want doe kids, and I get more doe kids if I breed the doe once in the heat cycle at the very start of that heat. Constant breeding seems to give more buck kids so I hand breed early in the cycle now.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), October 14, 2001.

Vickie to the rescue again. I bought an 8 month buck that the woman told me was sexually active, already breeding one of her does. Well, after a week, one of my does was being affectionate toward the buck, flagging him to no end and even mounting him. He didn't seem to be interested but when I looked at her tail the next day, both she and her sister were definitely yucky. No wonder he wasn't interested, he was tired.

-- Dee (gdgtur@goes.com), October 14, 2001.

This buck of ours has normal sized testicles...it's his other part that we've never seen ... extended ... within view.

-- helen (this@conversation.is.embarrassing), October 15, 2001.

Helen, has anybody ever gotten kids from this buck and how recently? Some areas of the US are selenium deficient and that can be a factor. Other causes for lack of libido include- the buck is not mature yet, the buck is too old, he is tired, there is a dominant buck or he has been so battered and intimidated by the does ( who may not have been in heat when the buck was intoduced to them)that he now has absolutely no interest in breeding them, the buck is too thin, and has no reserves to allow wasting energy on breeding, or he has severely overgrown or painful hooves that he would rather not stand on to mount the doe. You could check to see if there are any thorns, tacks or nails embedded in the hoof, or if the hoof is rotten. If the buck is not in good health he is not going to be as excited about breeding as he might be if he were healthy, he may have worms too, in which cse he is not only feeling crummy but also passing worm eggs to infect your does. If the buck has bred does recently in his home herd, I'd suspect that he was beat up on and is now scared of the does. If this is possible, you could try putting him in a pen by himself, and walking him to the doe pen every day to see if anyone is in heat. This is only a partial list, there are other reasons for not breeding. You say he has never extended himself, again, he may just be scared and unwilling to display himself for fear of provoking another attack. I Have heard that you can 'check the plumbing' by pressing the area just above the testicles, that this will extend the penis to make sure everything is OK and in working order.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), October 15, 2001.

Rebekah, thank you so much for the info. He was a sale animal, no idea how old but he looks very old. No prior info on him. As for manually inducing ... you know ... forget it. I got two little bucks nearly old enough! :)

-- helen (not@good.farmer), October 15, 2001.

Helen the only thing that I can think of that may be of a problem with leaving a breeding buck with your does for an extended length of time is that they may honeymoon with only one doe if several are in heat at the same time thus not getting that animal bred, but if your not worries about timing and don't need them kidding around the same time then it shouldn't matter, that how nature does it.

-- Diane (oleoranch3@aol.com), October 15, 2001.

The goats are mainly just quietly, earth-friendly brush hogs. We just keep a buck around to keep new ones coming along. They return about two acres of decent pasture out of dense brushy woods per year, and we only have to go in behind them to cut the remains of the brush. It was him trying to hide from the doe that made me think there was something REALLY wrong with a buck that won't breed. :)

-- helen (dumb@acres.farmer), October 15, 2001.