I'd love to hear some others' views about some of the info at this site. I'm familiar with some of the horrible stuff we've perpetrated in Guatemala and a couple of other countries, but overall, I'm pretty historically ignorant. Been dealing with homesteading stuff, and family stuff, and so forth, too much, and letting my civic awareness lag.

Any takers?

 http://comp.uark.edu/~jbennet/victims.html

A teaser from the site:

VICTIMS OF UNITED STATES INVASIONS

SINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR II

Invade: enter forcefully as an enemy; go into with hostile intent; enter to take possession ; conquer; enter and affect injuriously or destructively; infringement by intrusion; offensive; penetrate; spread into or over; attack; subvert. U.S. invasions are typically facilitated by secrecy, deceit, and lying by presidents and their subordinates in order to deny the public the truth and gain their support for acts that violate international laws and the U.S. Constitution and that kill innocent people.

"...a few million people have died in the American holocaust and many more millions have been condemned to lives of misery and torture as a result of US interventions extending from China and Greece in the 1940s to Afghanistan and Iraq in the 1990s."  William Blum, Killing Hope (p. 1).

"Since its violent beginning, the United States has launched a constant stream of military battles. Nine major wars and more than 200 armed invasions have occurred since 1776. From 1977 to 1993, the United States sent armed troops to carry out 32 invasions abroad."

Blase Bonpane describes the US as a serial killer supported by 250 million enablers.

No one should believe any U.S. government statement regarding foreign interventions; not arbitrarily, not a-priori, but post-priori, based upon repeated discoveries of secrecy and chicanery by the president and his officials, that enabled them to lead its large population, generally indifferent to and ignorant of foreign affairs, into wars regardless of their violations of international laws and the Constitution. Nor can the U.S. press be trusted to discover the truth early on when it matters, before the invasion has begun or in its early stages--or even years later! Nor can we count on our two main political parties to act as watchdogs. For example, the U.S. war in eastern Laos escalated through four Republican and Democratic adminstrations, including arming 30,000 Hmong and hiring 20,000 Thai troops, running an airline for the war, and devastating the Plain of Jars with 1.5 million tons of bombs, more than in World War II..

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), October 17, 2001

Answers

hey Joe! I looked at the site a bit. It's depressing. I wonder if anyone has done a similar expose on Russia, or China, or Germany, or England, Spain, France, Portugal...you get the idea;}. I do agree that there are many horrors perpetrated in the name of "We the People" and find it particularly interesting that the majority of foreign horrors have been committed since the inception of the UN. Coincidence? hmmmm.

I will read the entire thing when the backs of my eyeballs aren't fuzzy! Thanks for pointing it out to us.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), October 17, 2001.

I read the entire site..sounds like a synopsis of old-fashioned communist/socialist rhetoric to me. "Down with the capitalistic pigs..power to the people"..must have been writtten by a frustrated middle-aged former member of SDS. just a bunch of "bovine excretement" imho.....

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), October 17, 2001.

While I am thoroughly in disagreement with our nation's foreign policy, I am certainly not going to turn my sovereignity over to the UN. You should read the biographies on the upstanding terrorist members of THAT bunch.

Last week, I was reading the headlines in foreign newspapers. The Russian paper quotes Putin, "THERE ARE NO RUSSIAN TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN this is an unfounded rumor"

Why does this sound so familiar??!?!?! Oh yeah, I remember, THERE ARE NO AMERICAN TROOPS IN CAMBODIA and THERE ARE NO AMERICAN SOLDIERS IN EL SALVADOR, this is repeated over and over again with a different region by a different leader, all with the same sincerity as I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN......

As I am writing this I am listening to an interview with Stanislav Lunev, the Russian defector, quite interesting......

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), October 18, 2001.

Hey, Doreen, I would say that Russia, China, Germany, and England have probably pulled off at LEAST as much crap as the US has ever dreamed of. Spain, France, and Portugal? I'm not so sure one way or the other.

I'm not saying everything mentioned on this site is true. For one thing, there are at least two sides to most issues.

The material about Chile, Panama, and Mexico seem to be true, as far as everything I've read over the years. I am pretty familiar with Guatemala's history, having visited there a couple of times and gotten interested enough in this wonderful country to learm as much as I could about it. OUR government sent the troops down there to overthrow their first ever democratically elected government, back in the early 50's. For very selfish reasons; namely to protect United Fruit Company (now Chiquita, I think) from having to sell back its land (only its fallow land, actually) to the Guatemalan peasants. The land had been forcefully taken from them by US supported dictators in the past, and the land sold to UFC. The result of all this is the death and disappearance of over a million Guatemalan men, women and children over the next three or four decades.

As far as any correlation between all these atrocities and the UN, look at the title of the article: VICTIMS OF UNITED STATES INVASIONS

SINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR II

There is no way to make a conclusion about this correlation without looking at pre WWII atrocities.

Leslie, thanks for your opinion. Did you really read the info at this site? Did any of it look like the truth to you? I am not sure whom you are calling a "frustrated middle-aged former member of SDS". Presumably it's not the several dozen authors sited, since you used the singular form of the word "member". Perhaps you were referring to me. I hope not. I may be middle aged, and certainly I'm frustrated by the path President Select Bush has been following, which can only lead to more deaths of Americans and others, but I am NOT a former member of SDS. Nor a current member, for that matter.

As far as "middle aged" goes, I would expect to get better history written by middle aged professors, etc, than by young kids, wouldn't you?

Laura, I admit to a vast lack of knowledge in the area of the UN. I DO, however, like the CONCEPT of an organization which could unbiasedly settle disputes between nations (no, make that between "governments") rather than having them blow each others' citizens to hell.

I didn't have sex with THAT woman, either :)

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), October 18, 2001.

Hopefully I'm not being too obtuse, but what does SDS stand for?

As for war(s), I have always been a fa of the cage match between the leaders...I suppose it could even be something like a warrior select for each leader, but that would really screw up population control. (very bad attempt at black humor there).....Seriously though, if you really stop and ponder for awhile the only economy that will grow is a war based economy. Therefore that mentality actually leads to better standards of living, as perverse as it may sound, and as much as we may dislike it, in this world it is true.

I still haven't read it, just pooped by after checking work email. Later!!!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), October 18, 2001.

That's supposed to be POPPED by!!! sorry.

-- (bisquit@here.com), October 18, 2001.

What is SDS?

Joe, there will never be an "unbiased orginization" on this planet as we now know it. We can't even agree on What is Truth among friends let alone between different cultures, governments and enemies.

The things we did in South America are the things our government tries their best to hide from us. Our motives were purely imperialistic. I've known a lot of South American survivors from the many "civil wars" and changing dictatorships. The opinion of the peasants were simply, "We don't care WHO is the government in charge, we just want everyone to stop burning our farms, stealing our food, torturing our sons and raping our daughters." The people were victimized by both sides and the Americans were there fanning the flames. I met women who grew up in secret basements dug under the huts to protect them from the daily invasions of one side or the other. THEY NEVER SAW THE LIGHT OF DAY because to be seen by anyone meant they would be sought out as a prize by the winners of the daily battle. Yet these people were thankful for America and her churches who smuggled them north so they could live a good life in safety.

Our meddling in the rest of the world, has pretty much been the results of our involvement with and being the Sugar Pop to the UN. To simplify what I see the UN doing is to stand by and watch innocent people be slaughtered then prevent the victims from taking up arms and defending themselves. They don't sound a peep over the Christians being tortured or enslaved in Sudan and Nigeria and China. Haven't heard a word from them about the white farmers being murdered in Zimbabwe even after the whites said they would share their farms with their black brothers.......

Let me paraphrase my opinion of the UN. They are NOT your friend. they are NOT unbiased and they want to take away YOUR Rights just as much as the want to take away mine.

Joe, you just don't seem like the kind of guy who would calmly step aside when the UN told you to give up your hunting rifle and get off your land and move to a 2 room apartment in a city with a population of 6 million. For some reason I just think you would have a problem with that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

SHEESH! I'm starting to sound like Joel!

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), October 18, 2001.

SDS........Students for a Democratic Society. Very active against war and all forms of war and military research in bio-chemical warfare. Totally blew their whole cause when they blew up a university research lab doing research for the government in bio- chemical area, and their was a janitor in the building who was killed.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), October 18, 2001.

Joe; first, I never say something which I do not mean, so when I said I read the entire thing, I read the entire thing; as far as my opinion, which I believe you asked for, it holds..by the middle-aged former SDS member, I meant the individual who compiled the data for the university site. In over two years of being a participant in online forums I have only given in once to hurl a cheap shot at another poster, it is not my style, so if I thought ill of you, I would keep it to myself. Students for a Democratic Society, as dianne has already pointed out are fairly representitive of groups who preach peace, yet will wage war on those who disagree with them. When one asks for peoples' opinions, one should not expect that all opinions given will match their own, nor that the people giving an opinion care to argue to defend it....I read the site, I gave my opinion..now I have clarified it, and now I am done.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), October 18, 2001.

Leslie, thanks for the clarification. No response needed.

Laura, you said, "Joe, you just don't seem like the kind of guy who would calmly step aside when the UN told you to give up your hunting rifle and get off your land and move to a 2 room apartment in a city with a population of 6 million. For some reason I just think you would have a problem with that. Please correct me if I'm wrong. "

You're right. I have actually been pretty active in politics around here. One of the things I've addressed is not the UN's attempts, but the attempts of the LCDC to keep people off their land. (I'm not worried about a hunting rifle; I attack my wild tofudebeest with a fork), but I certainly would, and do, object to anyone's attempt to disarm the citizens. I believe that if at least a large percentage of us did not have guns, the thought police, or whatever you want to call them, would be a lot less reluctant to show up on our properties unannounced. I'm personally a lot less worried about "terrorists" than about big brother, who seems to be doing very well at this point. In fact, the "terrorists" may very well be part of a movement to pass this "anti terrorism" bill. Did you know that "Big Brother George" and his henchmen, will have power to visit our homes for the next four years, without a warrant, and without us even being notified that they've come calling?

On the other hand, I do believe a UN TYPE organization is a very good idea. Whether the current UN is the right organization is debatable.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), October 22, 2001.