Hi,

I own an M6ttl & M4 plus a number of leica lenses but I'm looking for a 35mm system for panoramas. I have looked at a number but like the look of the Widelux and was wondering if anyone in the group has had any experience with this camera.

Cheers

Mark

-- Mark Griffin (gripper@mark-griffin.com), October 28, 2001

Answers

Hallo Mark,

don´t know about the WIDELUX to be honest, bu my personal panorama- outfit is my LEICA M 6 with 15 mm HELIAR- lens. I also use the 21 mm or 28 mm lens for this and just crop the bottom and toppart of the negative when enlarging.

For slides it wouldn´t work so well, guess you could only mask the frame accordingly. Here a poper pamoramacamera would be handier.

Best wishes

K. G. Wolf

-- K. G. Wolf (k.g.wolf@web.de), October 28, 2001.

The Photo.net archives has a ton of information on the various panoramic cameras. The moving lens cameras had a lot of complaints about banding and mechanical troubles. More than a few people were happy with the Hasselblad/Fuji Xpan, which is basically similar to a wide foramt Leica which you are already comfortable with. Be sure to price panorama processing unless you will be doing all the stuff yourself.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), October 28, 2001.

A 35mm Widelux sat in my dealer's case for seven years. The day I decided to go get it, it was sold. After that, the urgency about having one went into remission, anyhow.

The Widelux or Xpan negatives would be fine for printing using a 6x7 or 6x9 or so enlarger, but projecting transparencies would be a kettle of fish. You'd need a 6x7 projector, and they are expensive. They Hasselblad Superwide (38mm Zeiss Biogon) will cover about the same horizontal angle as the XPAN when used with its 45mm lens. Of course, you still need an MF projector, but a 6x6 this time.

The Widelux, Noblex, etc, cameras introduce convergence of horizontal lines, like fence rails that seem to come together in the distance. a building photographed head-on takes on a curvilinear look, with both ends diminished in height compared to the center. Either this bothers you, or else it doesn't. With landscapes, it's hardly noticeable.

The wide aspect ratio of the panoramic format seems useful for avoiding the vast empty expanses of sky and foreground rubble that can appear in some ultra-wideangle shots.

One way to get a wide panorama without a special camera is to link two or three Leicas or Nikons together with a gang cable release, snapping three contiguous frames simultaneously. If nothing's moving, you can do it all with one camera on a panoramic tripod head. For projection, you mount the two or three images in Wess-mounts designed for the purpose, that blend the frames together like the old Cinerama process. Of course, then you need two or three projectors. Prints made from negatives obtained in this way could be mounted side by side for a panorama up to a full 360 degrees, if desired. One photographer published some stunning photos done this way, years ago, in photo yearbooks. I wish I could think of his name. One was in the Swiss Alps, and one was in some very northerly place where the sun never sets. He shot 24 frames, one an hour, with the sun in every frame!

Well, that's enough. Whenever "widescreen" or "panoramic" photography gets mentioned, I seem to pop out of the box like a windup toy.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), October 28, 2001.

Mark, I too love the look of Widelux shots, and thought I'd like an Xpan. After all, wouldn't it be a M6 and a Widelux all in one?

No, it wasn't. So, I bought a M6, and a Widelux/Noblex is next.

Problems with the Xpan-The f/4 lenses, poor lightmeter, and non-curved "look" it gave was the worst of all worlds. Neither a Leica or a Widelux.

Check out this link.

I worked for a pro when I was in college, and he had a Widelux; I fell in love with that "look." Lately, I've been looking at Wideluxes, but have guessed out (but not proven) that they aren't sold new in the USA. The factory may be out of business. The used one I tested had a banding problem, and knowledgable people tell me that the one to get is the F8 (not the F6 or F7). Buyer beware.

The nice thing about Wideluxes is that they have a f/2.8 lens; the much more reliable (not spring driven) Noblex is a f/4.5. If you like to do handheld people shots like me, this could be a bit of a problem.

I'm leaning towards the Noblex and just pushing the film.

-- David Carson (dave@davidcarson.com), October 28, 2001.

Mark,

I'm a panorama fiend. I have a Widelux 8. It is a great camera but I have not been using it very much the last few years. I also have the Fuji X-Pan with 40 and 90mm lens and love it. The construction has been problematic--the lens release button went down and had to be fixed--but it is a nice picture taker. The Widelux's rotating lens can be problematic--it can get sticky, though I've not had that problem. Under neon lights you get vertical stripes because neon flickers. I once used a CL with a Minolta mask and a homemade finder made from a panoramic throwaway camera. (Those were the days!) Get a hold of Joseph Meehan's "Panoramic Photography" (Amphoto: New York, 1990). Very good book. Another panorama option is the Mamiya 7 with special panoramic adaptor. Question: What do you want to photograph? For me, a street photog, the X-Pan is perfect. If you are shooting landscapes you might want something else.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4u.or.jp), October 29, 2001.

My standard travel kit consists of an M6 with 35 and 90 plus a Widelux F7. The swing-lens cameras like Widelux produce quite different photos compared to the fixed lens XPAN, which is excellent in its own way. Stitching of Leica frames is an option only for landscape panoramic images, not action photos, of course. Of the swing-lens 35mm cameras, I very much prefer Widelux for several reasons. First, the focus is fixed at 5 meters instead of at infinity like the Noblex and Horizon. This makes a difference if you want to use that f/ 2.8 lens at larger apertures, such as indoors. Infinity is in focus from about f/4 to f/ 5.6. The image quality is excellent even wide open, because the swing lens only uses the center of its image field, and there is no light fall-off, as with XPAN. Second, it has a build quality that feels more like a Leica, while Noblex and Horizon are sheathed in plastic. Third, the shutter mechanism, although limited in speeds, is quiet. The Horizon is like a bear-trap; the Noblex has a shutter delay that is annoying for action pictures. People complain about banding from uneven lens rotation with Widelux, but user care (keep dust-free!) and regular CLA keep them smooth. Widelux has shutter speeds of 1/15, 1/125, and 1/ 250. Remember you can hand-hold a 26mm lens at 1/15, so these speeds are all useful. There is a a 4x ND filter for bright sun, so these speeds are adequate to use an EI 400 film under nearly all normal situations. Fourth, you may find complaints about the Widelux viewfinder--Noblex and Horizon have bigger, more accurate ones--but the Widelux finder is close enough and keeps the camera small enough to slip into a Leica slot in your camera bag. Not so the other two. I often use the Widelux at waist-level, because there are markings on the top that indicate field of view--this is very inconspicuous. If you are already a Leica user, Widelux will be easy to use, because it is simple like a meterless RF camera, but it's certainly not for everyone. It requires more care than your Leica, but can produce unique images. Make sure you have an option to try the camera before purchase. The mint condition ones especially may not have received much exercise, and so may have uneven drive mechanisms that require service. The much-used ones tend to stay smooth. Also, try to get an F8 if you can find one, because they improved the drive gears with helical ones that seem to be less susceptible to banding. Clean the inside of the camera regularly with a brush, not by blowing air. The swing-lens cameras have a circuitous film path that tends to create little film chips that can be blown into the drive mechanism. This little mechanical marvel is unlikely to be replaced too soon by a comparable digital camera, but who knows? For now, IMHO it doesn't really have any competition except XPAN for journalistic style panoramics. For panoramics of static subjects, you have many options, as the folks above described.

-- Tim Nelson (timothy.nelson@yale.edu), October 29, 2001.

Another alternative is to use a Leica 16mm fisheye-elmarit-R, shoot a number of shots and then "stitch" these together in software. Here's a recent example: 4020.net/everyday/ 051.jpg

This particular image is 220° wide and 100° high - the people sitting by the edge of the fountain were only 2m away(!). Usually I use a monopod to shoot something like this, but in this particular case I did everything hand-held to be a little bit less conspicuous.

Leica M4-P, compact M Motor, cameraquest R->M lens adapter, Leica fisheye-elmarit-R 16mm, Fuji Press 800 film, Helmut Dersch Panorama Tools

-- Andrew Nemeth (azn@nemeng.com), October 29, 2001.

Andrew

Great shot- how did you keep it levelled, or do you just have a good eye?

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

I also have a F6-b (converted to F8 inside) along with my M6 + the 12mm,15mm, 25 and 28 Voigtlanders along with Kobalux 21. I'm crazy about wide shots. I love the Widelux. Nothing else produces images like a swing lens. Like Tim my standard travel kit ALWAYS has the Widelux. I have never had a problem with it and have traveled many multi-thousand mile trips on my motorcycle with it in the tank bag. I was told the F8 gear train was very reliable and less prone to vertical banding (irregular barrel rotation causing light streaks). I bought it about 7 years ago from Hawk Photo. Since then I have wanted the filter set for it but haven't come across one yet. If your interested in looking at some of my pics: http://www.jacksonville.net/~jonladd/

-- Jon Ladd (jonladd@mediaone.net), October 29, 2001.

If your interested in looking at some of my pics: http://www.jacksonville.net/~jonladd/

Jon,
The Voigtlaender pictures look sharper and contrastier than the Widelux's. Is that true?

-- Tse-Sung (tsesung@yahoo.com), October 29, 2001.

Erp. Excuse the poor HTML (weird line break thing again!)

If your interested in looking at some of my pics: http://www.jacksonville.net/~jonladd/

Jon,
The Voigtlaender pictures look sharper and contrastier than the Widelux's. Is that true?

-- Tse-Sung (tsesung@yahoo.com), October 29, 2001.

I guess the short answer is the Widelux isn't as sharp. But I don't expect it to be either. The Voigtlander lenses are really good performers. I will have to go back and check the full size scans though. I believe there is a lot of compression on the color files. I have to use different scanner software also to scan the larger passes and maybe there's a difference there too. I'm sure the Widelux is not as sharp as current brand lenses but the prints on 8x10 or 11 x 14 paper are wonderful.

I just added two more recent b/w images that are very sharp. All of the Widelux shots where handheld f11 @ 250/sec. This is the max aperture and speed of the camera.

-- Jon Ladd (jonladd@mediaone.net), October 30, 2001.

Here is a short contribution to something Bob Fleischman mentioned at the end of his his above message:

The photographer with the panorama shots from the Swiss Alps was Emil Schulthess I think. The camera was a special edition of a large format camera made to his order.

I saw a teriffic LEICAVISION- Show years ago by Helfried Weyer. These were the times when he still was with LEICA. He is now a ROLLEI-man. He coupled three M4- cameras with matching 90mm- lenses then and showed stunning himalaya- panoramas.

For those with (very old) LEICA- FOTOGRAFIE magazines: Günter Osterloh had an article on panoramas in 1979, No. 8, p. 21 ff.

Best wishes

K. G. Wolf

-- K. G. Wolf (k.g.wolf@web.de), October 31, 2001.

Hi,

Thanks for all the input on this. I'm going to try to get the camera shop to let me borrow the Widelux F7 over the weekend and put a few rolls through it.

Cheers

Mark

-- Mark Griffin (gripper@mark-griffin.com), October 31, 2001.

Helfried Weyer

Ah yes I remember him. I saw quite a few of his Leica shows. Some were excellent, some less so. I always remember his "ascent of Kilimanjaro" show which started so well, excitement was building to when he and his team would reach the summit - oh what stunning Leica shots we were going to see! We could hardly wait! Then we found out that the conditions at the top were awful with pouring rain, so no pictures, just a few of sodden members of the entourage. What an anticlimax - I went off Helfried a good deal after that. It was not his fault I suppose, but at least he could have restructured his show to make it more a "picture of Kenya" or some such. Bad planning I think!

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

Helfried Weyer

H. W. must have been really suffering on his trips. The NEPAL trip I saw was a bit like the one to the Kilimanjaro, only vice versa: It was soaking wet on the long way (walking two weeks) to some basecamp. But there was beautiful weather on the top and his slides, panoramas included, where great indeed.

This was in the old days when there was no airstrip up in the mountains near Namchebazar.

Best wishes

K. G. Wolf

-- K. G. Wolf (k.g.wolf@web.de), October 31, 2001.