Hi folks,

I've got to say I'm loving my M6 with a 50 mm mounted on it. I shoot dance concerts (modern, jazz, ballet) primarily with it and it works wonders. I've been getting shots that I never got with my F100. I think there's some sort of Zen-thing going on. Anyway, I digress.

I'm looking for a wide angle, preferably a 28mm. It also needs to be 2.8 or faster, but I don't have the big bucks to spend on it (with Christmas around the corner, I need to have cash for the family and for holiday events).

So, while I'm out in the used market, what version of the 28mm should I look for? Do any versions (and I don't know if there are many) fall within my budget? Or should I just wait the four agonizing months until I can afford the 28mm f/2?

Thanks for any comments.

-- victor virtucio (danzfotog@yahoo.com), October 31, 2001

Answers

Victor,

what about the Voigtlaender 28/1.9 ? This one should be quite fast and offers decent quality. Used 28/2 are quite rare and expensive ...

For $450 plus $50 for the adaptor you'll get a decent and fast lens and still have some money for christmas left ;-)

Kai

-- Kai Blanke (kai.blanke@iname.com), October 31, 2001.

The Voigtlander 28mm F1.9 has gotten rave reviews and can be had for under $500 with the M adapter. You could probably sell it for $400.00 after you used it for a year or so if you decided to spend the big bucks on the 28 Summicron later. The very early 28mm f2.8 Elmarits were not up to the performance standards as Leica's current 28s, and still go for pretty good money. I'd pop for the Voigtlander if I needed a fast 28 and was on a budget.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), October 31, 2001.

Yes, the Ultron is the one to get. The Elmarits and Summicron 28mm are very expensive, even s/h. In fact the price of the 28mm Elmarit is very close to the 28mm Summicron new. I am assuming that the Elmarit will be discontinued. When it does and the Summicrons appear on the market s/h then the Elmarit prices will drop, but this has not happened yet.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

If I go with the Voigtlander lens, will I be able to use the existing 28 mm frameline in my camera, or does the adapter ring change things?

Also, I made the jump to Leica because of its great glass. Is it really worth going to Voigtlander just for the price difference?

-- victor virtucio (danzfotog@yahoo.com), October 31, 2001.

Victor

Just make sure you get the right LTM to M mount that brings up the 28mm frame. As to the second part of your question - only you can answer that. I am sure the 28mm Summicron is a great lens and better at wider apertures than the VC, but the VC is meant to be pretty good and is probably on a par with the latest Elmarit, although perhaps not in finish and construction(?)

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

Just called my local camera shop (National Camera Exchange in Golden Valley, MN).

They've stopped stocking ANY Voigtlander products because of slow sales. They have no lenses, bodies or even adapters from Voigtlander.

I thought that was farily interesting given that the shop does a good amount of Leica business.

Does this speak at all to the quality/use of Voigtlander products? Just thought I'd mention that since I started calling around for prices.

-- victor (danzfotog@yahoo.com), October 31, 2001.

A number of sources recommend the 3rd version of the Leica 28 Elmarit (E49) which can often be had in the $750 - $800 range. See this site for example: http://www.leicagallery.com/toppickmlenses.htm

I use this lens and find it to be excellent. Of course if you need the extra stop and have to have the latest and greatest save up the money and buy it. I'm sure you won't regret it. Like they say you remember the quality long after you've forgotten the price. Good luck!

-- Don (wgpinc@yahoo.com), October 31, 2001.

You can check www.deltainternational.com for Voigtlander products. They don't list them on their site, but I asked and they sent me a list.

Here it is:

DISTRIBUTORS OF PHOTOGRAPHIC & ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT , BINOCULARS & FILMS 70A GREENWICH AVE. #107, NEW YORK, NEWTEL.(718)782-9840

DESCRIPTION PRICE DESCRIPTION PRICE

VOIGTL

Voigtlander Bessa-R black 405.0 - Voigtlander Bessa-R 405.0 - Voigtlander Bessa-T black 336.0 Voigtlander Bessa-T 336.0 Voigtlander 12 5.6 black 682.0 - Voigtlander 12 5.6 692.0 Voigtlander 15 4.5 black 336.0 Voigtlander 21 f/4 black 352.0 Voigtlander 21 f/4 352.0 Voigtlander 25 f/4 220.0 - Voigtlander 28 1.9 black 426.0 - Voigtlander 28 1.9 425.0 - Voigtlander 35 1.7 black 368.0 Voigtlander 35 1.7 368.0 Voigtlander 35 2.5 black 194.0 - Voigtlander 35 2.5 247.0 - Voigtlander 50 1.5 black 357.0 - * Voigtlander 50 1.5 357.0 - Voigtlander 75 2.5 black 315.0 - Voigtlander 75 2.5 315.0 - Voigtlander 90 3.5 black 325.0 - Voigtlander 90 3.5 325.0 - Voigtlander VC meter black 147.0 * Voigtlander VC meter 147.0 Voigtlander Side Grip 48.00 Voigtlander Winder Grip Call Voigtlander M-bayonet 54.00 Voigtlander M-bayonet 54.00 Voigtlander M-bayonet 54.00 Voigtlander Doubleshoe A 59.00 * Voigtlander Doubleshoe B 59.00 Voigtlander Spirit Level 118.0

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), October 31, 2001.

Victor,

If still in doubt, check out my first impressions of the Ultron which just got consolidated by further use. Cheers.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), October 31, 2001.

I bought into Leica for the fabulous lenses too and most of my lense are Leica ... 24/2.8, 35/2, 50/2 and 90/2.8. However there are other lenses that I don't use as frequently or couldn't afford in Leica glass (like a 15mm rectilinear!) that I'm happy to go with Voigtländer or other suppliers, and there are some nice things about a different lens line that are just qualitatively different from the Leica offerings.

For instance, I have the Heliar 15 I'm very attracted by the VC 21/ 4 ... Compared to my 24/2.8, it's tiny and much handier ... my Leica M6TTL with RapidWinder, 24mm finder, 24mm lens and lenshood in place is much bulkier and heavier than the M4- P with 15/4.5 and finder; the 21/4 looks particularly sweet in a similar vein. Same for 75mm lenses ... the VC offering is no way on par in performance compared with Leica's Summilux-M 75/ 1.4, but then it costs a pittance by comparison, is half the size and weight, and still returns a very nice photo.

I believe Voigtländer just switched distributors in the US ... They evidently weren't getting the kind of marketing and sales they wanted. Hopefully the new folks will be more proactive about marketing them aggressively.

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), October 31, 2001.

I seem to recall that the Canon RF 28mm lenses from the 60's were quite good. No idea what they go for on the used market. The Canon RF 50/1.4 was considered in the 60's to be as good or better than the Summilux 50/1.4 of that era, at least optically, and these are now cheap on the used market. You should be able to find more info on Canon RF lenses at the Cameraquest site.

-- Tim Nelson (timothy.nelson@yale.edu), October 31, 2001.

Victor

I think the third version of the Leica 28/2.8 Elmarit (this version has the E49 filter ring and was made during the 1980s and early 90s before version four came out) is an absolutely superb lens. These lenses (8-element design) were designed and made by Leitz Canada and feature greatly improved contrast and relatively distortion-free imaging, as compared with the earlier Leitz lenses (versions one and two).

There were not a very large number of these lenses made, but they can be found in dealers stocks. I expect they would cost from $ 800 to $ 1000, depending on the condition. I have a lot of experience using this lens, and I can tell you it is a really excellent lens, great for travel or street photography.

Anyway, I haven't heard anything but praise for this lens by those who have used it.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), October 31, 2001.

Okay.

So, I'm on the hunt for an '80s version Leica 28/2.8 Elmarit and a current Voigtlander 28/1.9 Ultron.

There aren't any in stock locally. Before I go ordering anything off the Internet, the one concern I have (since people have been saying that both lenses operate with comparable quality at f-stops 2.8 and smaller) is the intrusion of the lens (with and without the hoods) into the built-in viewfinder of an M6 .72.

Which of the two blocks more of the viewfinder? I don't want to have to buy an external viewfinder. It wouldn't work in my style of shooting and with dance photography.

I'll have to say that between an $800 used Leica or a $600 new Voigtlander (adapter cost included), I would probably buy the Leica just to stay in the family. Unless, of course, I find the viewfinder too blocked. The problem is there aren't any of these two lenses around locally for me to try out, so I have to rely on people's descriptions.

Any help would be greatly appreicated.

-- victor (danzfotog@yahoo.com), October 31, 2001.

victor,

I have a 28mm elmarit (3rd version) and the hood intrudes into the viewfinder horribly. It covers almost a quarter of the frame in the viewfinder. Without the hood it isn't very bad at all. I only use the hood when I'm wearing my glasses and I have to use an external finder anyway. Most of the time I have my contacts in so I use the camera's finder and the lens without the hood. I have found that the lens seems to flare quite a bit when shooting into the sun. I have always used a filter (until recently) so I'm not sure how it is without it.

good luck, john

-- john locher (locherjohn@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

Here is a link to an under-$800 Leica 28 Elmarit-M version 3 (also includes picture) I'm not a flack for KEH, but I've had reliable service from them. Note that it IS bargain condition - they have at least one other in 'excellent' shape for more money. click here

I also have this model lens and love it - it has most of the sharpness of the current lenses with a touch more tonal range.

I'll post a picture made with mine, but have to run right now...

Good Luck

Andy

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), October 31, 2001.

While I own a range of Cosina/Voigtlander lenses and highly respect them, get a Leica lens if you can afford it. If you have $800 already then save for another two months and get a mint used 4th/current version 28mm Elmarit. The 3rd version (one with 49mm filter thread) is also great. You will love it! I personally would delegate CosVoig lenses to focal lengths I seldom use like the 15mm. I just got the second version 28mm Elmarit and love it. Not brutally sharp like the ASPH but very "like a Leica".

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), October 31, 2001.

Victor:

I'll go along with the others in recommending (unhesitatingly) the version III 28mm Elmarit. $800 is exactly what I gave for mine, with hood. I'm extremely pleased with the images I get with this lens. I can't imagine ever parting with it.

Best Wishes,

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), October 31, 2001.

Here is a link to a previous thread where I posted a shot taken with the v.3 28 Elmarit - scroll down to the bottom. I give you the full thread because there some other useful comments there.

28 Elmarit link

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), November 01, 2001.

I made this rough sketch for your convenience. Cheers.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), November 01, 2001.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), November 01, 2001.

You guys are the greatest. Thanks all for the comments. Lutz K., that sketch of your really helps me out, I appreciate your effort.

-- victor (danzfotog@yahoo.com), November 01, 2001.

One other used option occurred to me: Minolta's 28, made for the Minolta CLE in M mount. Try Steve Gandy's site for details.

-- David Killick (Dalex@inet.net.nz), November 01, 2001.