Tell me what you know about the BARF diet for dogs, and other similar diets. Personal experience and opinions would be helpful...want to know about convenience, your dog's response, health improvements, etc.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), November 06, 2001

Answers

Hi Shannon, Our dogs absolutely love and thrive on raw meat, unfortunately we can't always afford to feed them just that. Whenever we have a buck born on the farm, it goes to the dogs. We used to raise rabbits for their food. Our dogs WILL NOT eat a baby anything...they lick it instead and try to bring it back to life. We have one dog who can't eat dogfood without getting terrible diahrea. She clears up beautifully on a raw meat diet. CJ

-- Cj (cjtinkle@getgoin.net), November 06, 2001.

I've been using the BARF diet with our dog for about 4 months now, and it's working out great! I don't go crazy with it like some do, with so much % veggies, offal, supplements, etc. I stick to just basic BARF - toss the dog some bony meat twice a day. Occassionally I'll whip up some eggs and veggies and give him that.

He loves it and is absolutely thriving on it. He's healthier now than ever - and his coat is just gorgeous! I usually feed him chicken, because it's the cheapest. Leg quarters actually have a little too much meat on them to be perfect BARF food, so what I do is take a big package of leg quarters, cut off about 1/2 the meat for our family to use, and feed him the rest, a leg quarter at a time.

The easiest way to figure out how much to feed your dog is to feed approximately 2-3% of the dog's body weight. For instance, our dog weighs about 25 pounds, so he gets about 1/2 pound of food a day. Some days he eats more, some days he eats less. Whatever he doesn't eat, our barn cats clean up with no problem. When we butcher rabbits or chickens, whatever we don't use for our family goes straight to the dog and cats. They will clean it all up. If we butcher a large quantity of rabbits, I usually end up freezing some of the innards for the critters to eat at a later date. Nothing goes to waste!

It's a very easy thing to do, and it's good for your dog. Just don't get to picky about it like some have a tendency to do.

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), November 06, 2001.

I heard about this and thought it may be a good idea for my dogs. We raise our own meat, so it wouldn't be an extra expense. Well the first time I tried to give them some raw meat, all three of them had the strangest look on their faces, like "what the heck is that?? You expect us to eat that???"

My dogs are 4, 12 & 12. I guess they didn't appreciate my trying to get them back to basics. They really appreciate their bagged food and french baggets they get every wednesday.

-- Wendy A (phillips-anteswe@pendleton.usmc.mil), November 06, 2001.

What exactly is the BARF diet??

-- Diane in Idaho (oleoranch3@aol.com), November 06, 2001.

Bones And Raw Food.

Basically feeding a dog what it would eat if it were wild. The diet consists of raw bony meat (like chicken wings and necks) and a few veggies and eggs. Some people get into grinding it all up and supplementing it with vitamins and kelp and who knows what else. Others, myself included, veer towards a more basic BARF diet which consists of throwing the dog whatever parts of a critter you yourself won't eat. With chicken, I just take as much of the meat off the bones as I want, and then throw the rest to the dog. Same with rabbits. My dog also likes pork neck bones very much. The raw bones are not hard for them to digest (it's the cooked ones that can give them problems).

If you're interested, there are several BARF groups on Yahoogroups. And lots of info on the internet. Just go to www.google.com and do a search on BARF.

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), November 06, 2001.

We've been feeding raw old-fashioned rolled oats soaked in raw milk to our dogs for about a year. One was weaned onto it by his breeder (who told us about the diet), and we put the other pup on it when we got her at about eight weeks old. They have both grown well on it and appear to be in good health. It's easy, just let the oats and milk soak for a while, sometimes I let it soak overnight. I had to stop giving them raw meat or eggs with it because they would both get diarrhea, but now that they are full-grown, I'll try again when we butcher. They are on dog-food now because the goats are dry, and seem to have made the transition just fine.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 06, 2001.

Be careful with the raw eggs; they can create B Vitamin deficiency.

My dogs and barn cats have been on the Barf diet for many years, and all are very healthy. They turn their noses up at dry food. My house cat, on the other hand, who will not eat anything BUT the dry junk, has all kinds of health problems. I've tried repeatedly to explain this to him but to no avail.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.

Kathleen, dosen't the oats sharp points stick in their gums? Other than wondering about that, oatmeal is what I feed the pups allot. My Borders have always gotten good dog food, always milk, corn bread, scrambled eggs, but never, ever raw anything.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 06, 2001.

I have always heard the poultry bones would splinter and stick in the dogs guts and cause problems. The only time I give my dogs chicken bones is when I pressure cook the chicken and the bones are really soft.

-- ruby (mcfays451@aol.com), November 06, 2001.

As someone else mentioned, people have been warned not to feed bones because cooked bones will tend to splinter. Raw bones do not. Or fully cooked bones (cooking for 24 hrs, as when making real broth) are fine too, since they become soft like when pressure cooking.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.

Nope - chicken bones are not a problem for dogs as long as they are raw. Once the bones are cooked, they become brittle, and that's when dogs can have trouble with them.

I have heard a couple of people say their dogs don't chew well - they just gulp, so they don't feed them turkey necks, which could cause some choking problems due to their size. My dog (a 25 pound terrier mix) is a great little chewer, so no problems there. Some people who feed turkey necks, first bank them up with a hammer to break up the bones. I mainly stick to feeding him chicken, and whatever we butcher. He loves it!

-- Cheryl in Ks (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), November 06, 2001.

A DOG ISN'T WILD ANY MORE !!! Dogs have been inbred, line bred, outbred and everything between, they have been domesticated! I know of no good vet or breeder who recommends feeding dog BONES of ANY type cooked or raw, we used to give our 7 dogs bones until our purebred Golden Retriever came down with terrible bloody diahrea we took to vet and found out that a sliver of BEEF bone cut his rectum to bleed. She said we were lucky he was still alive if that sliver would have stuck anywhere inside of him it would have caused internal bleeding and thus death. Dogs are suseptable to food borne diseases just like people. And even if their immune system is better that ours they tongue is hardly sterile(like some wives' tales say). So now I ask you all a question do you want to take the risk of the bones spiltering; the food borne disease on meats; or the samonella filled tongue licking your 2-year- old's hand, just so we can be different! I don't think so!

-- Chandler Wible (ProvidenceFarms2001@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.

It was stated that raw bones don't splinter .And you will not convience me that dogs are as likely to pick up food borne disease as people.I have a heeler that can and does eat everything she finds , dead decaying animals you name it .Her mom once at a whole dead newborn lamb .

And just not to be different you prefer to feed your dog prefab food fille with all kinds of crap >? Have you ever read the label ? Do you know what by products are ? First ingredient corn ?People have stated how much healthier there animals where on the barf diet .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 06, 2001.

Ooops forgot what I really came here to say , at auction you can get boar pigs sometimes as low as 5 cents a pound .It might be a good option.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 06, 2001.

Chandler, have you never heard of the antibiotic properties of dog saliva? God created dog slobber for the specific purpose of killing the germs found in the decaying meat that dogs will naturally eat.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.

There's an article in the November issue of Dog World entitled "The Raw Meat Debate --You Decide". I got the magazine just for that article, and it's very interesting. It's two arguments authored by people on each side of the fence: Jean Hofve, DVM (FOR giving raw meat), and Diane Smith, certified veterinary technician (AGAINST giving raw meat). Both sides have good points, but when I get my dogs I'm going to try BARF. (Geez Louise, I still have trouble typing or saying "BARF" with a straight face!)

-- Leslie A. (lesliea@mm2k.net), November 06, 2001.

My Borders are and always been very healthy. There is no way I would feed my dogs a dead animal. Yuck. My dogs work hard for me, and deserve good clean food, I even paturize their cow's and goat's milk before they get it, never given to the dogs or cats raw. My dogs wouldn't even hurt a baby chick or bunny. They don't eat other animals. The other animals are part of the family. They get their food in their own bowls, they know I will always feed them. They all get wormed once a month, all their vacs, baths and dips, they can come in the house. The pups always live in the house.

My dogs don't go looking for dead things to eat. They are always in the yard and barn yard, no dead animals around. If something dies, like a chicken, we bury it. My dogs love our baby goats and calves, and will stand right by them and protect them. There is no way they would eat one if it died. They would be sad. Anyway, to each his own, but my dogs are very healthy and thriving on dog food as the main bulk of their diet.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 07, 2001.

Cindy, If you're feeding dog food you're still feeding "dead animals".....you're just feeding the "throw away" parts from dead animals after they've been over processed and preservatives added! Also, a dog doesn't necessarily relate eating meat that you provide in his/her bowl to the chickens/goats/sheep/cattle that live at your house....its not like you toss an entire dead goat out the door for your dogs to devour. I too love my animals dearly they get the best care I can possibly provide for them and are a part of our family. Shannon asked this BARF question for me as I'm considering changing over to a more "natural" diet for my dogs (because I DO care for them so much). I have one dog (a CattleDog/Border Collie mix) with serious allergies that appear to be food related and although we've found a food that she doesn't seem to react to nearly as much (she no longer has to take medication) it is still not an ideal situation. I was considering raising my own chickens to feed the dogs (to also cut out on hormones etc. given to commercial chickens) but I'm not sure that I could stand to kill chickens I've raised. The veggie/yogurt/egg/ etc. part of the diet I have no issues with. I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with the meat/bones part of the issue (we eat VERY little meat ourselves). I know several people that have switched their dogs over to natural diets (each for different reasons) and have actually seen first hand the amazing results. I'm just trying to determine how to do this in a way that would make me feel more comfortable about it. Suggestions anyone?

-- Lisa (lambrose@summitpolymers.com), November 07, 2001.

I'm not sure how true this is, but I'd heard that the meat and meat by-products in commercial pet food comes from animal shelters and the remains from meat processing. My hunting cat eats everything he catches and is doing fine. The others are overweight and do a lot of sleeping.

-- Nina @ wild abandon (ninasinthegarden@aol.com), November 07, 2001.

Lisa, there's a huge difference between crunchy dog kibble that pours out of a bag and raw meat still hooked to the bones.

The main ingredient in most dog food is corn. And I do not believe that animal shelter kills go into this dog food I feed. I don't buy the cheap stuff.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 07, 2001.

Well, around here they use the renderings from the chicken processing plants. Or in other words....guts...heeheehe! They have to incinerate the remains of euthanized dogs and cats. Anyway...I had never heard of the BARF diet for dogs until today! We try to feed ours as many scraps as possible in addition to their dog food. We feed them liver because none of the rest of us will eat it!(when we have it from butchering) They hunt for their own BARF type items! Rats, mice, snakes, squirrels, rabbits, and literally whatever the cat drags in. Our cats bribe our dogs! Anyway....thanks for an interesting discussion. Oh....they also take stuff in the dead truck. (When you have a large animal that dies) Driven incidentally by the "dead" guy(my kids call him). They use this in the dog food plants too. IT is all good meat and bone meal sources according to my hubby who is an animal nutritionalist at a feed mill. Good grief, my dogs bring up all sorts of odds and ends to eat....parts from deer and other things. We have hunters that shoot deer in the woods and just take the antlers or head...the creeps! Anyway...the dogs make short work of that too. They never bother my chickens or geese though. Just thought that I would throw that in!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), November 07, 2001.

I find my dogs to be omnivorous; they eat their "corny" dog food but we readily feed them vegie scraps also. One more thing I forgot to mention, dogs aren't immune to HEART DISEASE, High cholestorol, or heart failure, that comes with eating high fat foods, take the risk if you want to, just remember that there is a serious RISK. I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers. God Bless

-- Chandler (providencefarms2001@yahoo.com), November 07, 2001.

Hi Chandler, It makes sense to me that the dog breeds that no longer look like meat eaters, (ie; the shape of the mouth and head is not wolf like) may not do as well on a raw meat/bones diet, they really need supplmental nutrients to grow with out the birth defects that are so common with modern breeding practices. But why would the breeds that still have the wolf type mouth not have the wolf type digestion? I doubt that all the years of selective breeding have targeted the gut related genes and not the teeth related ones, even wild dogs eat the contents of the prey animals stomach for the plant material there in, as well as berries, sweet young grass, some tree bark and roots. My coy-dogs even ate cactus, grass hoppers, butterfies, grubs, and earthworms, tomatoes, melons, carrots, beans and lots of other plant stuff right off the plants in the garden, Granted most dogs are not 1 or 2 generation removed from the wild, and do not have the instinct to seek out these raw foods, but lack of instinct and digestive chemistry are very different things. I for one am more concerned about what my dogs step and roll in, than what was in there mouth as far as germs are concerned. And the basis for dogs having less germs (not 'No Germs') is the constant cleaning action of salivation with panting and the lower temperatures in a dogs mouth due to mouth breathing.

-- Thumper (slrldr@yahoo.com), November 07, 2001.

Say Chandler, would you be so kind as to show us the documentation for the contention that high fat diets cause heart disease in canines? Thank you for your time.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 07, 2001.

The way I understand the BARF diet, you aren't feeding high fat content meats.....its generally bones that contain some meat and many people use chicken carcasses as a lower fat substitute to the beef or pork etc.....I've even been told to remove any excess fat. Meat and bones are not what entirely compromise the diet either (otherwise the diet would be unbalanced)......a variety of raw vegetables (generally chopped or pureed for ease in digestion - makes it similar to the offal found in the prey's intestines), yogurt (to replentish gut bacteria), eggs and over-ripe fruits (not rotten, just over- ripe....easier for the dog to digest).

Grains are added in some diets but the more reading I've done on this, the more I'm convinced that dogs are just not able to process grains. Besides, if you ever notice....the cheaper the bagged food is the more corn or grain it generally seems to have and the looser and more volumous (sp?) the dogs stools are. Many, many dogs are particularly allergic to processed corn meals and a lot of information I've looked in to shows that many bagged foods are not only full of preservatives, but also many times contain too much of some vitamens/minerals and not nearly enough of others.

I have no difficulties with the veggie/fruit/egg/yogurt part of this diet......I'm just trying to figure out a way I can handle giving the dogs the bones/meat. Like I said, I'd like to avoid the hormones etc. in the commercial chickens and don't think I'd believe I'd be able to handle butchering a chicken I have raised.

-- Lisa - MI (lambrose@summitpolymers.com), November 07, 2001.

Cindy you are lucky your dogs don't get dead things .Dead lambs happen , sometimes born dead .When the dog is loose sometimes they find them first .As for wild dead animals even my goldens will get them {yuck} ! Cattle dogs are a TOTALLY different breed ! I love her to death , they are just not for everyone .I could not have the animals I do {due to medical problems} without her , she is my second hand.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 07, 2001.

Totally off the subject.....but why when they bring these lovely treasures...ie. armadillo on the half shell or skunk frisbee...why oh why does my border collie have to roll on it??? My pomeranian does the same thing only she rolls on top of crickets or tiny things! We couldn't figure out what she was doing in the living room floor and when she got up we saw the little dead cricket! :~)!!!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), November 08, 2001.

Lisa, Have you considered having someone do the butchering for you in exchange for some of the meat & eggs? He could do several at one time - as many as you have room to freeze, can, etc.

-- Melody (RealWorld3D@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.

Hi Lisa, if the meat and bones is too much for you, it is possible to give protein from bean mixtures just as vegan's get their protein, it takes alot of cooking, if you have a pressure cooker it helps on time.

-- Thumper (slrldr@yahoo.com), November 08, 2001.

When we had our steer butchered a while back there was this big pile of bones and such outside the butcher's door. IT was done on his farm and whenever he would butcher one he would add the bones (some with a little meat left on them) to the pile and then have to pay to have it hauled off. You might check around for a butcher that does that out of his home. There might be a few left. Unfortunately ours was an older man and died recently. He was a very good one! Wished that I had thought of it at the time!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), November 08, 2001.

I have seen only good results for people that feed their dogs the BARF diet. We have a friend that had a great dane with multiple medical problems. After she went onto the BARF diet, her problems went away. She also had a young great dane that couldn't seem to gain weight no matter how much dog food she gave him (including trying different brands of dog food all of them quality not cheap). After she changed to BARF he gained weight beautifully, has a beautiful shiny coat and has a lot more energy.

I had another friend, however, who no matter how hard she tried, she couldn't get her Saint Bernard to eat a chicken wing. He would eat the lamb and beef bones but not the chicken and that is what she preferred to give him so she stopped trying to give him the BARF diet. She will probably try it again though.

As for me, I own seven great danes, having known a lot of people who feed their dogs of many different breeds the BARF diet, I would do it in a heart beat but I can't convince hubby to convert. The closest he will go is to add boiled turkey to their dried dog food instead of canned food.

To me, the diet just makes sense. What do you think dogs were fed forty years ago before packaged dog food was invented. Duh! Dead animals from the farm. Although we do feed a dry dog food that has meat as it's number one ingredient and they process a lot more of it because their poops are much smaller (this is very important to those of us that clean up after great danes LOL), I could see that the foods that were higher in meat content and lower in grain/corn was processed by the dogs better so that tells me it is better for them. We also only buy the type of food that is preserved with vitamin E not chemicals.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), November 08, 2001.