I've had an Alpine/Toggenburg whether and a Toggenburg doe for three years now, and I am learning more and more everyday about these creatures. Now, I know they can get out of fences and do all sorts of "sneaky" types of intelligent things, but what exactly can they be taught to and not to do? For instance, I have two new whethers (about 7 months old now), and my doe absolutely hates them. She butts them hard frequently, and I am never able to feed them all together. The older whether butts her and won't let her eat, so I give them separate eating bins. It is getting really old having all these "pecking" orders and I wondered if there is any way to help them to all get along. Is this wishful thinking? Winter and big snows are coming, and I don't relish the thought of freezing to death waiting for everyone to eat, etc. before I can go back to the house. Do they understand the word, "NO?" and do they even care like, maybe, a dog cares? Oh yes, one more thing. My whether (who was bottle-fed and has always been well-loved and cared for) is getting more and more aggressive when I try to get around him to feed, etc.. Anything I can do? He is quite large and friendly but very "pushy." Thanks for your help!

-- carla s. miller (carlasmiller@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001

Answers

Don't worry, the pecking order will be established and you will have peace....from what I've seen goats aren't grudge holders but they need to know each other's "place" in the herd. And good luck getting them to obey....you'd be more successful herding cats than training goats like dogs. Then again I may be wrong on that. What do the rest of the Countrysiders think?

-- gita (gschmitz@directcon.net), November 06, 2001.

Are the wethers for packing? The only time I have wethers with does is when they were born to them and are being raised for butchering.. so I don't know how herds of wethers with only one doe react over a perios of time. I do know that goats are much happier in family units which is why my herd is mother and daughters.. it makes for a much more peaceful world in the pen. I worry that wethers can get very agressive toward does.. if the doe is a family milk goat I might be tempted to suggest you hope she has a doeling and separate them from the rowdy eunuchs. Are you working the hand-raised wether? Packing and carting go a long way toward teaching a wether his "place" in the greater scheme of things.

In my years of goat keeping I've found that individual goats can be remarkably intelligent.. and some can be profoundly stupid. We've learned to eat the stupid ones, no matter how "correct" or well bred, as they can at best be timeconsuming and irritating, and at worst.. dangerous. But "obedient" in the well-trained-dog sense has never applied to even my most intelligent goats. I lay down important rules like "never jump on me" "never butt me" "scoot when I say SCOOT" "walk with me on a lead" and "don't step on my feet" by the time they are a few weeks old. They seem to be about as easy to train as cats. Most of our positive interaction is built upon kindness, patience, and mutual love and respect.. and an occasional bellow, but these are milked goats who have my focused attention twice a day, and we really look foreward to our times together. My observations for a harmonious herd: give them plenty of space.. give them important work to do (like milking or packing) and family units work best.

-- Ellen (gardenfarm@earthlink.net), November 06, 2001.

Goats are really intelligent, they understand a lot more than you think! Trouble is, do they want to respond or coopetate? I think they decide if they choose to do whatever. Mine are really spoiled though ,VBG>! Yes, they certainly DO care. For example, last spring I lost my special doe to a bad kidding. It was really tragic for me. I almost swore I would never go back to the barn, but I forced my self and just sat there and cried, they seemed to understand because they all came over to comfort me.

As for training the whethers, I always raise from the time they are kids and they are really not aggressive, and I have the supposed "meanie breed" Alpines.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), November 07, 2001.

While growing up, my husband had a 'brush' goat that played basketball with him. The goat would 'dribble' the ball with his horns and 'pass' the ball to my husband who would 'shoot' the ball. The goat would also 'run' rabbits with the beagles that his dad raised.As soon as the beagles were turned out he went trailing behind doing his "barking"! I didn't beleive him but his family had reassured me that it is true.

IMHO --With enough time and energy--I feel like you can train animals of all breeds. Just like people some are smarter and easier to train.

-- Debbie T in N.C. (rdtyner@mindspring.com), November 07, 2001.

Oh Ellen, I LOVED your comment about training them was about like training a cat!!! Mine are, IMHO, very smart goats and a great deal of the time can be very smart goats with ATTITUDES if I decide to change things from their usual routine. I have never had any luck having whethers in with my dairy goats unless they were born into them and were being raised for meat on the mamas. Right now I have one that will be butchered soon and all the mamas keep him in line but they are all related. Right now I have five generations in my barn and they have a very distinct line of authority.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 07, 2001.

Carla, I cull overly aggressive goats. I also breed for disposition. My bucks have to be gentle and easy for me to work on by myself. My last buck, Cream of Kansas Doughboy, was a gentle giant and I could trim his hooves without help. All my does are gentle and there is little to no butting at any time. Why all the wethers? Does are just as good at brush clearing as wethers. There is a good Christmas and Ramadan market and although they prefer intact goats you can still sell them for a good price. If they are pets you might consider separate pens.

-- Karen in Kansas (kansasgoats@iwon.com), November 07, 2001.

Carla do your wethers have thier horns? Alot like teenagers with knives, it also makes for a very un-harmonious farm when some have horns and some don't. If disbudded or polled, I would worry that perhaps your wether isn't in fact fully done! If you have children playing with them, I would reinforce the fact that when this wether weighs 200+ pounds, this pushy animal will become dangerous.

And just like I tell my 4H kids, you teach your goats how to act with you from the time they are little. Letting them be pushy with you, butting you, jumping up on you, etc. while young, makes it that much harder to handle them as adults. My oldest daughter was very strict with her animals, they were very well behaved, nearly robotic in the show ring. My does on the other hand, mind, but not near to the extent of hers. I demand peaceful milking times, cutting them a little slack if we have company, but I sold a very nice doe (Snickers on The Goat Shed) because she would not walk through the door from the milkers pen to the milk room, without me having to go and get her, lead her in, and ply her with goodies to get up on the milkstand! Look how big she is, I certainly wasn't going to lift her!) Everyday for 10 months, twice a day.......sorry, I actually traded her for hay! So yes I do think most goats are very smart, know their place in line, place at the feeder, nearly everyone knows and comes to their name, and some will jump up on the door, peering over to make sure I put the snap on the door. It takes about 2 weeks, for even first fresheners to walk through the milkroom door and jump up onto the milkstand, waiting to be milked. You can watch at a show and see how smart kids showmanship animals are...several of the kids when my oldest showed could call their animals names when they had traded goats in the ring, and make their animals start hollaring, or miss-behaving! I have seen lots of goats who are much smarter than their owners! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.

Goats are very smart. However they are not motivated in the same way that a dog is. I have had some that were very loyal and obedient, that I could take for a walk without a lead, just call her name gently if she strayed a little and she's come prancing back to me. Even on a lead, the lead was always slack, I didn't have to pull or yank that doe. She was special. The does that I have now are pretty intelligent. With most of them, I can change the feeding order and it takes just two or three feedings before they catch on. I do have a dim bulb or two, that take longer to learn.. I can call them by name and they will perk up and come, or at least think about it. Like I said, motivation... I can call the senior does all the way from the house and the doe will answer me. ( I can also tell them apart by their voice.) Once I was in the garden and heard Cricket calling. She sounded really upset, so I went to see what the problem was. My boys had tied her doe kid up to a fence and left her there, the baling twine had cinched tight around her neck. The kid could hardly breathe and couldn't make a sound. Cricket knew she needed help, so she called me. Needless to say, the boys were given a stern talking to. Another doe was in the habit of always peeing on the milk stand, which really bugged me. Finally I stopped her in mid stream, pulled her off the stand and put her nose in it and told her not to do it anymore! She hasn't and this is the dim bulb!

Most of the does jump right onto their own stand in the milking area and get their heads locked in before I feed them. If I don't lock their heads in, they jump back down and go for the grain can, with an attitude of, "well, if you're going to be that slow, I'll help myself!" A young doe did it a little different. She'd run to the stand, hit it with her front feet, and then run straight for the can. And when I milked her she was always kicking. I got really tired of her and sad to say, lost my temper. Now when I let her in, she runs straight for her stand, jumps on and puts her head in the keyhole, and strains eagerly, waving her head back and forth. If I'm really slow, she'll withdraw her head and perch on the very egde of the stand craning her neck. But she never jumps off the stand to get in the feed, and she stands like a statue when I milk!

About wethers, I have no use for them. They always hog up a lot more feed than they need to(hay, they don't need grain), and lay on fat while the prgnant does are trying to grow babies and lay in some reserves for their next lactation. Wethers are freeloaders. Since they don't have to waste any energy breeding or milking, they can get very strong and bossy and hog all the hay, not letting the hard working does eat. That is why your doe hates them, she knows she has to keep on top of all these eunuchs!!There is a pecking order even in an all doe herd, but with wethers it gets really skewed, especially if there are horns involved. Your doe doesn't need the stress of defending herself from the wethers, that at best could only be used for meat or packing. If they worked packing or pulling a cart it could be more worthwhile.

Do they care like a dog does? Yes and no. A dog is frantic for affection, goats are more independant like a cat. But they can be very loving and caring, especially if you're feeling down. They would miss you if someone else did the chores, but they do not live for the sound of your voice the way dogs sometimes do. They definitely understand NO, especially if it's reinforced when they don't listen. Mine will obey some hand gestures, clapping, pointing, etc, and except for their names, most communicaion is done with clicking and goat sounds. Listen to the threatening noise your doe makes when the wethers try to eat her grain. Make that noise to the big wether when he gets too pushy, and toss you head toward him like you have horns. He'll understand and back off. If he has horns though, forget it. Find a home where he can pack or pull a cart or feed someone. A horned wether can really be a problem.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 07, 2001.

Okay, first of all, I think I need to apologize for misspelling "wether." I am an English teacher. Yikes! Thanks, everyone, for all your help. I have learned something from every post. By the way, Toby follows us around like a puppy everywhere we go - forgot to mention that. Once he is taken by his lead, he walks like a good boy. He just likes to shove sometimes. I think I will separate him from the doe and let her have a kid this spring (separating them from the wethers); she and Toby used to be great before the butting started around the food bin. I have been having kids (babies) since we got her, and I could not deal with so many kids in the spring! I will also try to train Toby and the other two wethers for packing - they do need something to do. And, I will purchase more does; my daughters will be ready for 4-H in the next couple of years. Thanks, again!

-- carla s. miller (carlasmiller@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.

I don't know about goats being trainable, but my two certainly have me trained! Fiona the Naughty Nubian, and her daughter Kiera had me pegged from the very beginning--a big softie (she has my hubby wrapped around her hoof). All Fiona has to do is stand up and stick her head over the stall door and bleat at me and I'll go scratch her head and give her a piece of carrot or apple. They're both pets, I don't milk them--I did try once; milking Fiona should be a rodeo event. Whenever I'm working around the barn I let them loose they'll go outside to eat weeds around the barn but all I have to do is yell Fiona's name and she runs to "check in" with me.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), November 07, 2001.

What an excellent post Rebekah! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.

very smart . They can be house / car housebroken - if youstart young. reward good behavior, & ignore bad.My main tools are non -lethal weapons.

squirt gun,screaming, & gingersnaps. I have resorted to smearing lard on my truck hood & cab . X X O O

-- Elizabeth Quintana (rockshelter@webtv.com), November 07, 2001.

in my personal opinion , goats , will mimic what they see from others , we just bought 3 young boer goats , 2 does and a buck , and brought them in with my saanens , now the boers were range goats , from a person who breeds them for the meat market , and not overly as pets .... my saanens , are pets , and were bottle fed , needless to say , today is the second day we have had the boers , and the saanens , are already teaching them to come up rightaway when mom comes , theres always pets and hugs ....sometimes , leaves or leftover veggies . i think they are like a siberian husky , kind of aloof , but still wanting attention , they are trainable , though i am still trying to train the buck not to get his head stuck in feeder ....

i do find them lke cats in that they seem mainly belly motivated , if it has food involved then i will do it , but they are cunning , like they find the weakness in every fence you get , they put heads through jump over , one wether we had figured if he went on his knees really fast under the elec fence he wouldnt get zapped , we switched ot a constant current for a few days , he stopped , but not before he taught another couple of goats to be fence testers ...

-- Beth Van Stiphout (willosnake@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.

In my experience it's all about training them from day one. I always say kids and animals thrive on routine. Routine Routine! My goats, for instance come when called, no matter where they are because they associate returning to their pen with getting food. I can let them out any time and they don't wander more than maybe 30 yards. They never even wander to my neighbors yard. Although I always let my does nurse their kids I slip in a bottle for a few days to make sure they become people oriented. As far as intelligence they are very sensitive to changes in routine. Which is why you shouldn't spoil them. For instance, if you give them a treat for a couple days or at a certain time of day and then stop, or let them out for a few days and then don't, they can get ornery and "act out" their frustration. Of course, there are always "characters" in the herd - ones with minds of their own, the explorers, the aggressive ones, etc.

-- Lynn (moonspinner@bluefrognet.net), November 09, 2001.