after doing all kinds of thinking and getting plenty of advice from you ladies and gentlemen about what to raise on my small farm i have decided to give goats another chance. this time however i do not want the goats as pets only, i want them to earn their keep. i have decided to get 2 dairy goats. i need to know which is the quietest, calmest and best producer of milk. i would like to make goat cheese and butter. we use to have a toggenburg when i was a kid. i liked fresh goat milk better than fresh cows milk. i like the look of nubians, how are they as far as both pet and dairy goats.

again thanks for your help!

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), November 12, 2001

Answers

Hi George, Everyone is going to have their favorite breed, of course, so I expect to see a lot of replies. However, since you asked specifically for quiet and calm, I have to put in a word for the Oberhasli. I interviewed a lot of people with experience with several breeds, and they all said Obers were about the quietest and calmest. Since I live right in the city, that's important to me. I bought an Ober, and have to agree. She's about as quiet as a goat can be. She is also friendly with my little Nigerians.

I paid a fair bit for her to get good quality, and she is a very good producer. Her third freshening, May 2000, which is still going on, she peaked at 12 pounds per day. After about 5 months I went to once- a-day milkings. She immediately dropped to about six pounds per day, and now, 18 months later, she is still giving just under 4 pounds a day, which is about as much as we can conveniently use. Her milk is good, sweet and clean tasting, another thing Obers are known for. If I don't feed her good alfalfa in early lactation, it gets a little thin, so I just feed her good alfalfa. So there's my pitch. Have fun with your goats!

-- Laura Jensen (lauraj@seedlaw.com), November 12, 2001.

Well george...........since you asked ;>) lol. you mention cheese and butter which was my original reason for obtaining my Nubians. They consistently have the high butter fat content that is needed for lots of your butter and best cheeses. Saying that, quietest and calmest is really an individual opinion. My girls are as calm as any breed I have been around, excepting maybe Saanans. They, the saanans, seem by far the most laid back. Any Alpines or Lamancha's I have had have been hugely more hyper than my nubians.

I love the "pet" quality of my nubians. They are very sensitive to me and to their surroundings and follow me all over the farm if I let them. Good luck and I am sure you will enjoy what ever you chose. Just chose healthy animals from reputable breeders!!!

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 12, 2001.

La Manchas- are quiet, calm, easy going and produce well, with good butterfat. The appearance is a turn off to some, but you get used to it. I like their unique look, it highlights their beatiful eyes. And if you think about it, their ears are no smaller than most human's!

Oberhasli- are quiet and gentle. Some are not so productive. They are fewer in number so if you would like to perpetuate a rare breed this might be a good one. Production varies between individuals, you could probably find one that really milks if you look around.

Alpines- I like the ones we have, some people do not like the personality. They tend to be independent and sometimes bossy. Most of ours are fairly quiet. They are quite productive as a breed, and are favored in dairies for that reason. If you want to make butter, make sure and check out the butterfat percentage in the bloodlines, some are 4-5% butterfat, others are only 2.5%. Most are about 3.5% which is just so so.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 12, 2001.

is there anyone in the southern section of vermont or new hampshire who has dairy goats for sale or will have for sale this spring?i really like the comments about the nubians and oberhasli's(how do you pronounce this?)i also liketheir looks. thanks

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), November 12, 2001.

Hi! Before we got our LaMancha goat I looked at all the breeds in depth, and decided on the Lamancha for three reasons. A. Percent of butter fat to milk ratio, amount of milk produced

B. Calmness and quietessness(if that's a word!)

C. AVAILABILITY (most important)

A Nubian has an average of 4.8% butterfat and 1783 lbs. of milk (a gallon weighs 8.25 lbs.) in 305 days making it the highest major dairy breed in butterfat but the least in milk production. It known for being loud and high strung (for a goat).

A Oberhasli has an average of 3.5% butterfat and 1890 lbs. of milk in 305 days making it one of the lower butterfat and second lowest in milk production. Though it can be one of the calmest quietest breed the problem is their availability, because they are the rarest major dairy goat breed.

The Swiss breeds (Saanen, 2383lbs.; Toggenburg, 2070lbs.; French Alpine,

-- Chandler (ProvidenceFarms2001@yahoo.com), November 12, 2001.

Hi! Before we got our LaMancha goat I looked at all the breeds in depth, and decided on the Lamancha for three reasons. A. Percent of butter fat to milk ratio, amount of milk produced

B. Calmness and quietessness(if that's a word!)

C. AVAILABILITY (most important)

A Nubian has an average of 4.8% butterfat and 1783 lbs. of milk (a gallon weighs 8.25 lbs.) in 305 days making it the highest major dairy breed in butterfat but the least in milk production. It known for being loud and high strung (for a goat).

A Oberhasli has an average of 3.5% butterfat and 1890 lbs. of milk in 305 days making it one of the lower butterfat and second lowest in milk production. Though it can be one of the calmest quietest breed the problem is their availability, because they are the rarest major dairy goat breed.

The Swiss breeds (Saanen, 2383lbs.; Toggenburg, 2070lbs.; French Alpine, 2201lbs.) are the highest milk producers but have the lowest butterfat ratio (3.4 - 3.5%). They are generally active and loud but not as bad as the Nubians.

The Lamancha goat is like a Oberhasli in its quietness and calmness. But has the second highest butterfat ratio 4.00% and yet still produces a good amount of milk 2026lbs. of milk (in 305 days). These goats, while not lazy, are laid back. Everyone I have taked to who had Lamanchas said they were very happy with them. Their a walking piece of American history as they are the only dairy goat breed hailing from America. They are the second rarest breed but they are widespread so finding one shouldn't be a hassle. And their ears is what is special to their breed. Just like the Nubians droopy ears are their thing. I can testify that our goat has only MAAAAAAAED 5-6 times in the 6 weeks we had her.

Goat numbers: 883,000 French Alpine

-- Chandler (ProvidenceFarms2001@yahoo.com), November 12, 2001.

Hi! Before we got our LaMancha goat I looked at all the breeds in depth, and decided on the Lamancha for three reasons. A. Percent of butter fat to milk ratio, amount of milk produced

B. Calmness and quietessness(if that's a word!)

C. AVAILABILITY (most important)

A Nubian has an average of 4.8% butterfat and 1783 lbs. of milk (a gallon weighs 8.25 lbs.) in 305 days making it the highest major dairy breed in butterfat but the least in milk production. It known for being loud and high strung (for a goat).

A Oberhasli has an average of 3.5% butterfat and 1890 lbs. of milk in 305 days making it one of the lower butterfat and second lowest in milk production. Though it can be one of the calmest quietest breed the problem is their availability, because they are the rarest major dairy goat breed.

The Swiss breeds (Saanen, 2383lbs.; Toggenburg, 2070lbs.; French Alpine, 2201lbs.) are the highest milk producers but have the lowest butterfat ratio (3.4 - 3.5%). They are generally active and loud but not as bad as the Nubians.

The American Lamancha goat is like a Oberhasli in its quietness and calmness. But has the second highest butterfat ratio 4.00% and yet still produces a good amount of milk 2026lbs. of milk (in 305 days). These goats, while not lazy, are laid back. Everyone I have taked to who had Lamanchas said they were very happy with them. Their a walking piece of American history as they are the only dairy goat breed hailing from America. They are the second rarest breed but they are widespread so finding one shouldn't be a hassle. And their ears is what is special to their breed. Just like the Nubians droopy ears are their thing. I can testify that our goat has only MAAAAAAAED 5-6 times in the 6 weeks we had her.

Goat numbers: 883,000 French Alpine 521,000 Nubian 453,000 Saanen 359,000 Toggenburg 281,000 American LaMancha 77,000 Oberhasli SO SORRY I ACCIDENTLY HIT THE SUMBIT BUTTON TWICE. All figures are taken from The American Dairy Goat Association for the year 2000 It was a low year for the Lamanchas And A high year for the Nubians. Hope this helps. This Is The final form. Bye

-- Chandler (ProvidenceFarms2001@yahoo.com), November 12, 2001.

hi chandler. you have given me a lot of info. one thing i would like to know is how do you get the butterfat ratio. is this something that can be figured out at home or do you have to have it tested somewhere? thanks.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), November 12, 2001.

Averages are great and you can get a general overview of what the breed is like. But please, check out the herd the goat is from. Ask to see milk records (for that particular doe or dam of a kid), etc. Check to see if the herd has tested for diseases: CAE, CL, etc. My Nubians average much more than that in both production and butterfat or they don't stay here. They also must have a quiet and nice temperment. I got them because I like their looks among other things. Every breed is different and there is also differences among the individual breeds.

-- Leslie in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), November 12, 2001.

We have a LaMancha and a Nubian. We also foster cared for a Nubian billy as an 'introduction' to goats (never ever ever again!). My wife and I attended a goat show at nearby Raliegh before making our decision as to breed. Based soley on personality (all other good aspects aside) get the LaMancha. They are super quiet. They are trainable and smart. They heed electric fences, dont tear up the fence and arent as stubborn as the darn little nubian we have. The LOUD MOUTHED nubian we have, I might add. The LaManchas are funny looking, and might scare neighbors off, and you will certainly get the comment "Whyd ja cut its ears off?" But they are great goats!

-- Kevin in NC (Vantravlrs@aol.com), November 12, 2001.

When they ask why'd ya cut off a lamancha's ears I always say "no, the ticks were that bad this year!" The look on their faces pure terror.

-- Sherrie R Clifton (BryrPatch35@aol.com), November 12, 2001.

Saanens quiet well mannered give a ton of milk .I happen to have some for sale {hehe} I am in upstate NY .There are also several breeders in NH.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 12, 2001.

I have Alpines right now, but have seriously thought about branching out into LaManchas. I've had Saanens in the past, but got bored with the constantly white babies :-)! And I did have a problem wth off-flavor milk...but that could have been just the particular family of Saanens that I had. The Saanens were quite calm and quiet, though. I'm very happy wih my Alpines...getting 12 to 14 lbs. of milk from each, making excellent cheese, and they are very easy to contain and are quiet! Although I do have one who is half Nubian, is quite vocal and she's the one who always lets me know that I'm late with the grain!! The LaManchas seem very appealing to me and from what I've observed, are very calm and quiet. But, I will keep my Alpines!!

-- Marcia (HrMr@webtv.net), November 12, 2001.

George, Okay, I love Nubians and they give more than the records give them credit and mine are not high strung or noisy. My LOUDEST goat, a Toggenburg, man could she yell!! My sweetest goat, LaMancha, she was so mellow and laidback, my quietess(sp), Saanan, most high strung, French Alpine. Actaully, I never met a goat I did not like, and I like all the breeds and if I had more money and more land and more time I would have all of them, including the Boer(great dispositions). Have fun, check out the parents, and for goodness sakes, taste the milk, they don't all give sweet milk.

-- Karen in Kansas (kansasgoats@iwon.com), November 12, 2001.

I absolutly love my Saanen...have just one now, but wouldn't part with her. She has a wonderful personality..like all the others I have owned or met, and gives alot of milk. I would really recomend the breed!!!! I love how Nubians look too, but will always have Saanens!!

-- Jenny (auntjenny6@aol.com), November 12, 2001.

Well, no one has mentioned kindergoats, so I'll have to plug them a bit. Kindergoats are a new breed, compared to most. They are a cross between a nubian and a nigerian dwarf. They are smaller than the swiss breeds and are very fuel efficient! They are not little and round like pygmies and they are very milkable (meaning, their teats are large enough to get ahold of). I have worked with kindergoats, saanens,alpines, nubians, pygmies, and nigerian dwarfs. I didn't have a problem with loud nubians, in fact one of the alpines was the noisiest, but that was just that individual goat. One of the big benefits of kindergoats is that they are polyseasonal. Like the nigerian dwarfs and the pygmies, they can be bred year round. Like the nubian, they have a high butterfat content. My current doe isn't a landmark producer. She has only birthed once (twins) and she produced just shy of a gallon a day at peak. That's plenty for me for cheese and milk and yogurt. With two kinderdoes, you can breed one to birth in the fall and one to birth in the spring. This way you have a constant supply of milk, and you are never overloaded. Life is good!

-- Sheryl in Me (radams@sacoriver.net), November 13, 2001.

There are sable saanens who are colored with the same great traits !!!

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 13, 2001.

I'm going to put my two bits worth in for La Manchas too. I've had Nubians.. no complaints except the food intake vs. the milk outlay wasn't great. These were huge "old style" Nubians though. My Toggenbergs had sweet temperaments but off tasting milk.. could have been the strain. My Alpines were bossy queens and as much as I loved great quantities of milk, their cranky willfullness sent them on to more tolerant folks. The goats I have now are dual purpose Santa Theresas.. and no matter what you read from someone in Colorado.. the only true Santa Theresas available are in California, so they're out for you.. but much of their sweetness and stunning milk production is due to the fine La Manchas that have been bred into them. The La Manchas come from an ancient breed of creamy white, earless goats of Spanish descent from the island of Malta. There are still earless white goats roaming the farms of Malta today. Some evidently made it here as novelty goats and ended up in Oregon where their dominant earlessness and dominant cream color made them interesting, and their sweet milk and dispositions made them useful. They have an open registry that allows 7/8th to be defined as "Pure" so many other breeds have worked their way into the original cream-colored, broad beamed, sweet little Maltese goat. When crossed with Nubians you also get great little meaty kids.

-- Ellen (gardenfarm@earthlink.net), November 13, 2001.

George, take all this information with you and visit farms. Don't go out picking goats by breed if you are open to all of them. Look for someone helpful, with lots of aftercare and enough animals for you to lease or get your does bred to. Don't buy a buck right off, buy the does bred now, so you have them the next couple of months before babies are born. Then either bottle or let the kids nurse, relieveing the udders daily so you have all the milk, once you or the moms wean the kids. No sense in buying Oberhasli's if there isn't a buck for 100's of miles, they need alot of work as a breed, and fixing their udders and feet and legs isn't something for the newbie to be doing. The idea that you will find a wonderful Obie for sale isn't likely. LaMancha's are quiet, but there butterfat can plument if they are bred from Saanen genetics. LaManchas can have as much butterfat as Nubians if they come from those gentics. (lots of roman noses on LaMancha's! :) But unless you are going to eat the kids, especially the bucks, you will be nearly giving them away, most folks can't get passed the ears. Nubians are loud, some are even louder! But Nubians kids are easy to sell, 99% of the folks wanting goats want Nubians, yes they peak at 9 to 15 pounds of milk a day, then settle into their 6 to 8 pounds normally, but with the butterfat you get, you make more cheese per pound of Nubian milk than any other. It is good and bad that there is so many of them! Your prices at reasle is all dependant on the quality of stock you purchase, the amount of milk you get is dependant upon the amount of milk her dams had. Buy a pet Nubian 3 year old who has only been asked to nurse kids, and you will take home a doe who will milk for 12 weeks, then slowly dry up, all the while you will think you are doing something wrong. Milking is genetic but it is also hormonal. Teach a doe to only milk for 12 weeks, and it teaches her oxytocin to only produce for 12 weeks in previous milkings. We now know from cattle information on Hoards that who you breed your does to the first year does affect their milking ability for years to come. So all those first fresheners bred to Boer isn't that good of an idea! Saanens are lovely, huge, regal, and milk forever, as long as you live up north. However they also have lowfat milk it is so low in butterfat. You can see the difference in milk from Nubians and other breeds. We can't keep them here, though we had lots of crosses when we sold milk, we had several Saanen/LaMancha crosses which were our favorites. Toggs are notoruis for having poor tasting milk, and wether it runs in bloodlines or not, it does exist. Nubian Togg crosses are some of the best does I have ever seen! Alpines are fine as long as you only have Alpines. They are known for their meaness to other stock. Excellent milkers, big hardy does. But if all is equal when you go to purchase, purchase from the nicest farm, don't go buying from some nanny and billie Nubian raiser if you can find a really nice LaMancha breeder! Dang how far are you from Patty! A fellow homesteader with goat knowledge with goats already doing exactly what you want them to do when they come to your house, plus she is right here for you to bug! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

I have to say that once you get into goats you will decide which ones suit you the best.

I raise mainly Oberhasli's. They don't jump out like my alpines, they don't make noise at feeding like the nubians, (I sold every last one of the Nubians this year since I can't stand willfull LOUD mouths! LOL) The obers are so people orientated that they can stay on mom and still be extreamly friendly with people. A pluss since I show mine also. My butterfat runs about 4%. I also have Lamancha/alpine crosses that are just great. This year everything is bred to the oberhasli buck. Can't wait to see what I get.

There are so many nice goats out there that if you end up with one that is not quite what you want be kind and sell it and get what you want. One of the best goats I ever had was a mutt, alpine, nubian and pygmy cross. She gave me about 6 lbs. (3 quarts) a day of the best creammy milk. I never sold her milk. I used it myself. Good luck with finding a milking friend.

-- miller (smillers@snowcrest.net), November 13, 2001.

George, I tried to e-mail you but it didn't go through. I have a list of breeders for you, if you can e-mail me.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 13, 2001.

Hi George! To figure out the butterfat ratio you need a scale(to weigh the milk and butterfat) and a cream seprator( they run from 200.00 to 1000.00 Dollars, an essential for making butter, cheese, and lowfat milk; the russian model can be bought from Hoegger for $220.00 they are just as good as the USA models which are around $650.00.) Anyway you weigh the total milk and seperate from the cream. If you have a goat that gives 4.0% cream, you'll put the milk through and get 96 pounds of skim milk and 4 pounds of butterfat. And using simple division you'll get the answer easily. I like the look of the Lamancha the no ears gives them a 'clean' look. But the nubians are very pretty but they do produce a ton of NOISE, generally.

-- Chandler in Minnesota (ProvidenceFarms2001@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

ok , here we go again , you may regret asking this question , every goat owner feels thiers is best , thats why we got that breed :)

its kind of like asking what is the prettiest color

personally , i have saanens , and i also raise boers..... my saanens are quiet, until they see me ,,.. they were bottle fed and have to tell mom how much they love her .....of course i consider that a good thing , i have 4 saanens and 3 boers , and yes i can tell who is who by thier bleat..... my babies are gentle and tractable , easy to handle my buck and one wether are trained for cart and pack , my doe literally comes running when i go to the milking room door...

the boers are more meat goat , and are newer, having not been raised by us , they are more cautious , but they too are friendly , and as our are crossed with nubians , i expect decent milk from them ... but they are more for meat , and income ....

good luck , youi will have friends no matter what you end up choosing , goat owners are more than willing to admit we need to know more than we do , and like our babies , we ask when we need help :)

-- Beth Van Stiphout (willosnake@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

George- many breeders have their herds on production test (DHIR, DHIA) and this tells them which goats are giving how much milk for how long, whether they give 12 lbs for a month and then 2lbs for the rest of the lactation, or give a steady 6-8 lbs for 305 days. It will also tell the percentage butterfat. Here is an example- 4-09 305 4,270 3.8% 160 3.3% 139

This doe was an exceptional producer. At the age of 4 years, 9 months, she began a lactation that was 305 days long, during which she produced 4,270 lbs of milk (wow), with 3.8% butterfat, adding up to 160 lbs total of butterfat for that lactation, and 3.3% protein, adding up to 139 lbs total protein for that time. I think this is right. Vicki, if I'm wrong, please correct me and set it straight! :)

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 14, 2001.

thanks everyone for all the info. you all should get together and write a good book on goats, not like the silly books i see. you all have given me more info than i can find in any book. thanks again.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), November 14, 2001.

Hi George - Just for the record - not ALL Nubians are loud mouths. None of mine are. My loudest goat was a La Mancha who now lives in Missouri. ;) & my friend's goat whom I boarded for a month while she built her barn was a close second & she's a Saanen/Alpine cross. I really believe it depends on the goat & I also believe it can be learned!

I had 2 Toggs & they also had off-tasting milk. I hadn't heard about the breed being notorious for this & thought maybe it was just fluke that my 2 were the ones w/ the strong flavor. I've also had a few crosses, some nice, some not-so-nice, but my favorite breed of all is La Manchas. Yeah, it takes a little while to get past the no-ear thing, but they really are the sweetest things you will ever meet. Someone once told me - & I've never forgotten this - You'll get the best return for your investment with a La Mancha. & she's right! They are verrrrrrry affectionate. Of course, yo'ull have yoru brats out there, but you're going to have good & bad representatives in every breed. Just shop carefully! Oh yeah - & La Manchas usually have a little higher butterfat than the Swiss breeds, but not always. Since they're a mixture of several breeds, it just depends on what kind of goats they come from. . . just like it will with any goat!

Anyway, good luck. You'll find your perfect goat, don't worry!

Regards, Sarah/MI

-- Sarah Sanders (chilechile@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

We aren't saying that Nubians are bad because they are loud. But in a mix herd the noise makers are usually the Nubians. At a show the goats hollaring at night are usually Nubians. Because of this more vocal nature it is also eaiser to tell that they are in heat, that they are going to kid, that there is something wrong in the barn, that they are being picked on, that you are late doing chores, and when they are quite that they are not feeling well. Yes there are quiet Nubians and loud LaManchas, but put 50 Nubians together at a show and you choose to sleep in a hotel! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 15, 2001.

Definately Alpines! But then I am crazed over them. I just returned from a 1,500 mile journey to buy the rest of one of the top herds of Alpines for show and milk in the country. We drove straight through after we got them, whew..... glad to be home.

Seriously, any breed is good, its a matter of reading all the information you received and deciding, be careful of CL and CAE, don't go to sales, etc. Good luck, let us know what you decided on.

Bernice..... who is going to bed, dead after 36 hrs

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), November 16, 2001.

Bernice, you really do have to love alpines to drive that far for them. Good luck with your new herd.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), November 16, 2001.

Bernice, are you going to just keep us in suspense like that? Which herd did you buy from?? You know, I like my alpines too. They seem a lot stronger and hardier than some others that I have had, and smart! Are they ever intelligent! Dominance is only an occasional problem (usually with a particular doe), unless the barn is overcrowded and feeder space is limited. The ones I have are not hyper. They are alert, but isn't that part of the scorecard for dairy character? It just goes to show that we all have our preferences, and that there is no one breed that would be right for everybody!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 17, 2001.

Rebekah...after having Alpines for almost 10 yrs, I've only noticed dominance in what seems to be a herd leader doe. Leadership changes occasionally and definitely is passed down to a daughter. Sometimes there is a "second in command" who is a good friend of the leader doe. Others in the herd get along fine. What do you suppose...a survival "thing" maybe?

-- Marcia (HrMr@webtv.net), November 17, 2001.

George, I tried to reply to your e-mail with that list of breeders, but my e-mail came back again. The message says something about sender blocked. I don't want to post people's addresses here on a public board, so am at a loss as to how to get the information to you! If you can figure out what the problem is with the e-mails, let me know and I'll re-send the list. Otherwise, the only other thing I can think of for you to do is contact the Ag extension agent for your area, and ask them for contact information for goat breeders. If you can make contact with someone who is an ADGA member, they'll have a copy of the membership directory and can give you the same information I was going to pass on. Hope this helps!

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 17, 2001.

Marcia, with the girls here, the queen is definitely the boss, but she hardly ever bashes into anyone. She is a very dignified and fair queen. She doesn't have to throw her weight around because they all seem to have a deep respect for her. She walks through the barn, the others just move out of the way. Sometimes she will gesture a little wth her head or if that doesn't work, may slightly nip another goat, but I can't even remember the last time she did that. The one that I have trouble with is the second in command. She and the queen are not buddy buddy, but they respect each other. Anyway, second in command is the one who bullies and is pushy, usually about the feed, we have too many goats for the size of the barn and feeders. The queen is aloof and would rather eat by herself than to have to quarrel with a bunch of underlings.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 17, 2001.

Rebekah...... finally back to the living here. I got 14 does from the Bayview herd in WVA. They sold out except for 2 that will go to their daughter back in New england where the herd started so the Bayviews will continue on through them. Now...... I should ahve know that Bayviews have a distinct "bullyiness' about them. I had to bring back a Lamancha/Nubian doe milker for a friend here, so once we got them unloaded into the barn area for new goats the Bayview does had her surrounded, they were bashing ehr and biting her. The poor girl was ontop of some wood we had stacked in the cornor up away from them. Then when we stopped for gas and to put air in the tires a fellow who raised Nubians came over and chatted, he said that the Alpines were nipping her ears, we joked about the old saying at shows about the lamanchas getting their ears bitten off, and hmmmmm.... bet if she had Nubian ears they'd be missing by now. She made it back with ears intact and no damages.

As for dominanc ein Alpines, man...... I could write a book on that, i have so many herd queens and witches. Right now I will be getting 6 more next summer from a friend in the west who is selling out, she has the infamous Cat daughters which go back to Snowbird, and the evilness gets passed down in that line, so in the herd all the Cat lady does is look at the others and they run. Boy, this will be fun, I think i will be known for having hopefully beautiful alpines that are definately evil! LOL:):)

But we needed the milkers for the dairy so I made the trip before the scrapie regs take hold soon.

Kathleen and george, i do ahve a ADGA directory, let me know and I can e-mail you information privately.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), November 17, 2001.

Bernice- LOL! If you want some gentle (relatively) Alpines, let me know! :D I think we are near your friend and we have mainly Sodium Oaks and Shahena'ko lines now.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 19, 2001.