Here are some of my thoughts as I was reading the travel thread. I am quoting the pertinent phrases so look for the quotes in case this thread gets compressed. The starred comments are mine.

"Steph - Come on now - Which is it. Are greens Commies or are they Socialist's. What is wrong with being for feminism? Are you against that? Think your point out before you post. "

** Actually there is very little difference between a communist and a socialist. Both take away individual rights in favor of the masses. Both are totalitarian in nature. Unfortuantely the Green party is not the only party we find these philosophies in, but they definitely do exhibit all the characteristics of a wannabe totalitarian party.

"I am sorry Stephanie, I don't believe that disagreeing with someone is flaming them. Perhaps I don't understand flaming. No one has called you names or questioned your intelligence or anything drastic. Just did not agree with you. "

** I agree with Diane here. This is just a lot of people exercising their right to free speech. This is an argument of ideas.

"To Stephanie who said this, I really hope you not knocking this. If it were not for feminism, you may well have been still considered little more than property today. Just look at the situation of those women in Afghanistan to get a glimpse of what happens to women in a society that has carried patriarchy too far. "

** To this I say balogna. The true feminist movement didn't get moving until the sixties. My grandmother's were never considered property. Give me a break. The modern feminist movement does however bear the responsibility for many other things like:

1)Children who have no mothers OR fathers in residence eight to ten hours a day. 2) The fact that women have been convinced it is OK to kill their own babies. 3) The fact that little babies who should be nursing still are being dumped off at care facilities across the nation. 4) The elevation of the Woman to heights of selfishness that defy the imagination. And a whole list of others.

Also another person, I believe that it was jump-off Joe said that he thought it was useless to quote the Bible to prove the bible. I got to thinking about this comment and realized that I completely understood that perspective. It would seem strange to someone that doesn't believe in God or his Word. The thing is, you see, as a Christian we believe that God speaks through his Word. To us it doesn't matter what we have to say only what He has to say. Ultimately a Christian will always use the Word of God in order to support what we believe is truth, because we believe He is Truth. It matters not to us what others believe is truth only what God says through His Word is truth. Ultimately all of us believe in the Truth. JOJ believes he can find truth is science. Nexar believe there are many avenues to truth. I believe that the only truth is the God of the Bible. So basically we all believe there is Truth. We just don't believe that it is the same thing. To say that we are single minded is true. For when it comes to truth, not the truth that we believe, but actual truth, there is no middle ground. It either is or it isn't. So the very fact that we believe that what we believe is truth, means that each of us must stand for our own belief of the truth. It is true, Christians especially us unmoldable fundamentalist Christians hold fast to our beliefs and exclude those who do not. If not in word, then in deed. This is natural when you truly believe that God is truth. But all of you, like it or not hold to your truth as well. Even Nexar who says that there are many paths to truth is holding to his own belief of truth as well. Your are all just as unmoldable as we Christians are. You just don't like to admit it. As a Christian, I believe, in fact I know that I know that I know that the God of the bible is the one and only true God. I understand that in saying I know I upset some. JOJ says, but how do you know? Give me some piece of scientific evidence I can test in a controlled environment. I say, I am sorry, God gave you a whole world to live on. He gave you the very science you worship, and yet you say you cannot see him. How dare you say you know, they say. I dare I say because the evidence is clear. It is before your eyes everyday in the form of God's creation. But what about my truth they say. How do you dare to say you know? I dare, because I do. I know. Believe it or not. Nevertheless I know that the God of the Bible is real. Does it help to declare me a fundamentalist? Does it help to say I am radical? Does it help to say I am missing the truth. Nope! I know that the God of the Bible is real. Nothing, absolutely nothing you can say can change or alter that. How rigid, they say. I say, Yep!!! If I wasn't then I wouldn't believe. I wouldn't know, but I do. "At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), November 12, 2001

Answers

Little bit - Amen and Amen!! I agree with everything you say and ain't it gonna be something to see all those knees bow to God - that includes EVERYONE who denies Him! Praise God!

-- Barb (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

In response to using the bible to prove the bible...There is plenty out there that confirms the Biblical facts. However, much is not reported. Cities they scoffed at, since discovered, seeming to perish in the manner consistant with the biblical record. Much is distorted, much is made to seem sience fiction and leaves you with the same wonder if they found anything. If you do not wish to believe in God, having him knock on your door and introduce himself will not even help. You can just twist it to your belief of life. You can excuse away any miricle. There are some that try to prove the bible is false, and dig up information and end up believers. I do not know what to say to such a firm non-believer except to say ask God to show you if he is real. Maybe he will pick an area close to your heart. I still am quite happy that a non-believer will read about God. Yes, you can quote the bible to prove the bible. It may take a few years for people to see what it means to them, or that..yes there the place is, just like the bible said. Also, I believe there is a story IN the bible where God says let the witness of Moses, etc. be enough. If you really want to believe, you will find the truth in the word. Just recognize there are Christians of all sorts, but we all believe in the Lord. We do not know his timing. I was someone you would never expect to become a Christian and he showed me that there is so much more. GOD bless!!!

-- notnow (notnow05@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

Hello Folks, Even I, being a non-Christian, believe there is TRUTH in the Bible. But, I do not believe that every WORD in it IS. There are many books, chapters, and passages that have been added or subtracted over the history of the Bible that have taken its present translation out of context. Originally, much of the New Testament, materialized shortly after scrolls were stolen from the Jewish libraries of Roman Times. Many of the writers of the New Testament were deemed "unable to read or write". Thus, any work that they succeeded in adding to the New Testament had been written and translated by someone whom had those ablities. The Catholic Bible offers more books than the King James Edition. King James removed the last name of Barabbas since it meant the same as Christ's but, in another language. Kings James removed passages about reincarnation, since he himself forbodded any beliefs in it and did not want any proof to became apparant. New Bibles have cropped up here and there since the originals. Beliefs that are today "popular" were not prasticed in 100AD. One Roman Emperor decreed that there would not be any religions that had more than one God allowed in Rome. Anyone believing in more than one God would be considered a criminal. Many of the "vogue" religions of that day chose to incorporate their beliefs with the "safe and simple" beliefs of Christians. Those religions gave Christianity its boost toward success by expanding its beliefs world-wide. Those religions also brought with them the rituals of the Christmas Tree, the Yule Log, etc. These rituals were erroneously added to the bible as well. As Christianity expanded, (and Rome fell) the surviving of the Vatican held a poignant role in further expansion of Christianity. However, one pope gave his admirations to a group of people to search out and gather as much of the scattered artifacts of the Christian religion and bring them to the Vatican for safe keeping. Thus, arised the Crusades. The Crusades with the financing of the Vatican traveled far beyond the borders of old Rome, cramming their beliefs down the throats of many a "pagan". With the forced, of either you are with us or against us, also helped expand the Christian religion way beyond the "roads of the Roman Empire". This also caused many wars and thus, Christians believing they were right would fight to the death with anyone that did not want to believe. During these Crusades, much of the other religions artifacts were destroyed as to leave no trace except Christian. However, in our modern world of science and research much of the traces of other religions have been uncovered. We are looking at many religions in many different langauges that pre- dated the "Christian Movement". Those religions have similar tenets that will be found in the modern Holy Bible. Many of which I believe were blantantly either stolen or made to appear that Christians owned them from the beginning. Understand I am not "knocking" the faith of any Christian, but on the other hand I am not going to sit in front of this forum and "agree" that everything written in the Holy Bible is truth either. Either way, all religions including the Christian Movement have contributed much to mankind. The truth in the New Testament, The Talmud, The Koran, or any other "Book of Truth", should be examined with scientific data. An example of falsehood, specifically speaking is "The Great Flood". It is true many religions speak of "a Great Flood". That is a fact. The Bible version of it is the most popular one and the most read. Fact: The city of Ur was proven to be flooded. There was layers of slit found in it exavation. However, other excavations of cities that existed during that time did not have layers of silt in their excavations. The Great Flood was restricted to a small area in the Mesapotamia (Iraq) area. Believed to be caused by a temporary melting remains of a recent galacial period. There where abouts of Noah's Ark was believe to be in the Turkish Mountains. A modern astronaut discovered the remains in the late sixties. Upon, carbon dating the remains, it was discovered that it dated only to the 15th century. Further research discovered that a group of monks had built a memorial to Noah in the form of an outline of the ark!. Thus, this story has been proven to be a hoax as well. I am not saying that everything in the Holy Bible is a hoax but, I am saying that throughout man's history there has been a lot of debasing of the truth to suit man's need. As man knows that many believe in Christ, I believe he has put things in the Holy Bible to further his gains of power, greed, or whatever, believing that the many who read the "word of God" will also believe what he has added or deleted. Sincerely, Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

I'm sorry Ernest. You say a lot, but very little of what you say is documentable. Hate to tell you Ernest, but there are sea creatures on the tops of mountains in the form of fossils all over the earth. Of course there were religions before Christianity, at least New Testament Christianity. Unfortunately for you, Christianity started in the Old Testament with the first prophecy of Christ in Genesis. It matters not to me that something like baptism was used in some pagan religion sometime. Baptism was originally a tradition that showed affiliation. However Christ's baptism was the first time that the Holy Spirit decended upon the Son of God. Baptism showed the affiliation of early Christians with Christ. It was a statement of who they chose to follow. It showed where their beliefs lie. The simple truth is, that like it or not the New Testament has endured 2000 years. The Old Testament far longer than that. It is true that there were many books written over history about god and that many of them were studied and found to be not part of the Canon of scripture. It is also true that Catholics disagree with many Protestants on the content of Canon. Surprise! Surprise! That is not the only issue. Nevertheless, even if the books Catholics include in Canon were added it would change the actual message of scripture very little. As it is I am very happy with the current accepted version of Canon. I also think that King James had it on the ball. After all Koinia Greek was still being spoken during the time of King James. In addition all of the men who were involved in translating were fine upstanding individuals who were very concerned about maintaining the integrity of scripture. The same cannot be said about today's NIV version.

\ I had to laugh at your description about the supposed horrible falsehood contained in the Noah's Ark study. So big deal that some guy finds pices of wood and says they are Noah's ark and the dating turns out to be wrong. Who's to say THAT was actually Noah's ark! Next time you find a sea shell fossil on a mountain top, talk to me then.

By the way, Gosh I've read the Bible from one end to the other and I have never found a Christmas tree or a yule log in it!!

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), November 13, 2001.

"For when it comes to truth, not the truth that we believe, but actual truth, there is no middle ground. It either is or it isn't."

Well, geez, I guess I'm missing out. I have to be less open minded.

OK, from now on, I'll start assuming you're just too ignorant to see that it is MY TRUTH, THE ONLY TRUTH, WHICH IS TRUE. YOUR TRUTH IS FALSE, AND SINFUL, AND YOU'D BETTER GET OVER IT AND SEE THINGS MY WAY. Because my truth is the ONLY truth.

Boy, that makes it a lot easier; thank you. I no longer need to support my beliefs with logic; I can merely say that my truth is the ONE TRUTH, THE TRUE WORD, and DON'T EVER DARE challenge my truth. ahhh..to be so wise is such a fine feeling! Thanks so much, LBF!

Sorry, but MY TRUTH, which is the ONLY truth, says that no knees bend, and no tongues blather. This is worshipping a false truth. Get over it.

NOtnow, you said, "If you really want to believe, you will find the truth in the word.". You're right. If you REALLY WANT TO BELIEVE SOMETHING, you will. I know lots of folks who really want to believe they should play the lottery. All of them have lost a lot of money. But they still believe. If you REALLY WANT, you can believe in MY TRUTH, since I have learned from LBF that my truth is the only truth, and needs no evidence.

Ernest, you are pissing into the wind, trying to convince these folks of anything remotely resembling logic. They BELIEVE; therefore, it is true.

Look at LBF's denial of your data, for instance. "Hate to tell you Ernest, but there are sea creatures on the tops of mountains in the form of fossils all over the earth. " LBF uses this to "prove" that Noah's flood took place. I don't know why she even bothered, since she has said that her belief proves her truth. Obviously, she chooses NOT to believe in tectonics. That would not fit into her "truth". Blah.

By the way, I have never found a fossil on a mountain top. Have you?

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 13, 2001.

Well at least that is honest Joe. Of course you believe that I am too ignorant to see that your truth is true. It has been abundantly clear that you have believed that about me from the getgo. The simple truth is that all the things you accuse me of are qualities you possess in spades. You are just as hardnosed and unwilling to believe what I believe as I am to your beliefs. To me it is laughable that you waste time complaining about it to me. Logic has absolutely nothing to do with faith. Neither for you or for me. Your faith in science is just as illogical to me as my faith in God is to you.

And actually I have found fossils at very high elevations. I have also found them in deserts. I have also found them on the plains. In fact I have found them all over the US. I am a bit of a rockhound you see. Have you ever looked for a fossil on the top of a mountain? How about this? In order for the Grand Canyon to have formed the way geologists currently hypothesize water would have had to flow up hill.

Face it Joe, logic wouldn't change your mind anyway. The evidence is all around you. You refuse to believe. There is very little I can say to change that. I am however going to post some things that I find interesting. Ultimately I can never convince you though. God may, but not me.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), November 13, 2001.

I am beginning to believe the doctrine of election as stated in the Bible that God choses those He wishes to save. That explains why some will just never understand. You have to have the Holy Spirit to understand and if God did not chose you, you will never have the Holy Spirit abide in you.

-- Barb (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

Hello LBF, It is true that I do not show "documentation" for the information I post. However, the information is available for anyone whom wants to find it. It is not hidden in esoteric scriptures nor is it written by extremist. The information is " mostly mainstream". You can find much on the internet but, with that information I still take it with a grain of salt. The reason being is that many people post information on the internet that may not be as reliable as say.... a reference from a book. I am not here to change you or anyone's opinion of what they believe is true or not true. That is not my purpose in life. However, I do stand firm on the belief that every word in the bible is not truth, whether it is a Holy Bible of yesteryear of the most recent edition. The Bible has been altered! And anyone that studied other religions should be able to see the similarities of the teachings in Christianity and the teachings in pre-christian religions. My truths are based on axioms of nature. Science is not the only course for me either but, science has proven much of the truths that some holy books could not. Nothing or no one can be convinced of anything, unless they themselves are willing to research. I myself, have always searched for the truth. I am sure most humans have too. But, why would anyone stop only halfway through mankind's existence and declare, that this is the truth, and then go no further into the past to find the origins of those written thoughts on a scroll or clay tablet. The cross I wear around my neck is 1500 years older than the crucifix and a pictograph of it was found in an archelogical site in the southwestern part of the US. It is the symbol of a present day religion of which its tenets I practise. But, even if my religion is fortunate to reveal more truth to me than Christianity, I still would not stop until I found absolute truth! And I too, would defend my religion as the Christians do. I opened by mind and tried to look beyond my early teachings of Christianity and vowed that I would not close my eyes to the truths offered in other religions. I honestly hate what has become a cliche....I have read the bible back and forth but, you are not the only one that has done that. I am not going to give you the exact passages where some of my information comes from in the bible but, you should be able to find them. After all....I did. The passages pertaining to the Christmas tree are there...in the old testament, so is the one's pertaining to the yule log. Believe me. I do not disparage dishonesty with anyone and I will not begin with you. The seashells. Did you ever wonder why there are seashell ontop of mountains? I did to until I read World in Upheaval by, Issac Assimnov. Most believe that the planet was cover with water at one time. And it probably was. Did the water recede or did the mountains push their way up out of the sea? In World in Upheaval the auther explains about tribes of Indians in the Hemalayans that grew their crops on the sides of the mountain. It was a long, long time ago. However, today another tribe of Indians attempted to do the same thing on the same terracing that the previous Indians had done. The results was that the old terraced gardens were too high to maintain plant growth! I thought that was a good explaination of whether mountains grew out of the sea or whether the sea receded. You see there is virtually a scientific explanation for nearly every event in the bible. Whether or not you or anyone else believes it, is up to you. I will not tell you, that you must believe it. I only presented it to you as my beliefs. Sincerely, Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Not that it would change the mind of a dogmatist, but water never flowed uphill to ERODE the grand canyon. christ on a cruth, Lbf!

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 13, 2001.

Yeah Ernest! You said a mouthful and lets not forget the dead sea scrolls and the Nag Hammadi library, found almost 2000 years after Christ but still not "allowed" into the bible despite widespread authentication within the scientific community.

Not only has the bible as we know it been doctored with "convenient" omissions but many of the folks here have abdicated their own responsibility to discern the truths within it for themselves without the "aid" of Jack Chick, Pat Robertson, their various Pastors etc.

Further, it seems to me that considering they profess the bible to be complete and inerrant despite some glaring inconsistancies and some obvious errors they are more committed to defending these alleged "inerrant" qualities of the bible rather than seeking to understand truth better. And that amounts to bible IDOLATRY IMO and that a no no according to the ten commandments.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 13, 2001.

John, please don't interpret the commandments. It's unseemly...(please take that in the light hearted ribbing fashion it is intended to be) :). Your statement can be easily disproven by two popular passages from the Bible and that incapacitation backed up by two passages that say do not add nor subtract from the Word. But when we are talking relative truth and absolute truth, we cannot meet on equal ground. There is a lot of stuff in the Bible that is hard to accept because it hurts your pride and sometimes the rawness of admitting how off from God we are is very uncomfortable. But that is something that comes with faith-which is something unseen, unprovable by scientific data, yet stronger than anything else on earth...it's not "of" the earth -an unseen essential to "getting" the Word of God.

There is a thing called the harmony of the Gospels which the Apocrypha nor the Talmud possess, these are extra biblical books as are many of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Just because it is old does not make it better. Remember that wine will turn to vinegar.

Ernest, I know the passages you are talking about, Jeremiah 10 clearly describes the idolatry behind the Christmas tree, and I can't recollect exactly the Yule log, but I have read that as well. Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are also referenced. It might help to note that without exception ALL of the Christian holidays we celebrate were taken by the Catholic church from pagan holidays. It was a classic bait and switch and decidedly wrong when looked at in the full light of the gospel. Maybe they meant well by it, but you know the old saying about good intentions.

There is absolutely no point in arguing or even discussing the Bible and it's tenets with folks who have been presented and soundly rejected the Truth (Jesus Christ is the way, the Truth, and the life). Ernest might recall some passages regarding that as well.

You guys can all believe whatever you like. There is absolutley nothing that any person here can do to change your mind. It's your heart that the Lord is after, the mind follows that change, it doesn't lead the way. So I can only say that I hope your hearts will change.... either way...Peace.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), November 13, 2001.

Actually, Doreen (welcome back, btw), I'd love to be convinced that I could use religion as some form of an aid. But I would need quite a bit of proof, not just someone telling me that thus and so is "THE truth".

Until then, I'll continue to be open minded, try to look at all things, and make my decisions based on logic. Not just blind faith.

I'm glad you and LB are happy on your courses, but they are not for me.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 13, 2001.

Thanks for the welcome...but I leave today -I look forward to being welcomed back again tho'!

I mispoke when I said "harmony of the Gospels" I meant "harmony of scriptures".

Lil Bit and I are beyond happy that we know Jesus Christ....we're so thrilled that we want everyone to know Him.

It's so odd that the very things I see as being abundant proof of the Lord and His Word, others see as being proof of science. I have a dear friend who feels the same as you do, Joe. We have gone round and round to no avail. As I said, it's your heart first, then your mind. He and I came to the conclusion that in order to remain decent towards eachother we would simply have to agree to to disagree. We know eachother's points and arguments, yet we are not on the same ground. So that's what we do.

See y'all later!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), November 14, 2001.

JOJ....... I really do very much understand where you are coming from. Believe me I have been there and even today have my moments of severe doubts (especially when I see the behavior of fellow Christians). I am sharing this with you as something to consider. God is not logical. This was my prayer twice a day for over a year. "God, I don't know who you are or even if you are, but....if you are will you please make your presence known in my life."

Some people think that they have the corner on the market when it comes to knowing God, His Son and what scripture says. I ignore them and try to listen to the VERY QUIET, still voice of God. It works for me. In love.....diane

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 14, 2001.

They're "extra biblical" Doreen because they were discovered long after the bible had been compiled and disseminated. Considering they discuss Jesus with numerous quotes from Jesus himself it seems pretty self serving to disregard them merely because a group of church leaders have concluded they aren't relevant.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 14, 2001.

I know this won't do any good, but maybe someone with half a brain will understand my point. LBF said, "JOJ believes he can find truth is science. Nexar believe there are many avenues to truth. I believe that the only truth is the God of the Bible. So basically we all believe there is Truth. We just don't believe that it is the same thing. To say that we are single minded is true."

One has to wonder what the bible says about Anthrax or Smallpox, and how to protect oneself from it. What does the bible say about genetic engineering? How about cloning? What "truth" does it show us?

I think science certainly has a lot to say about these, and many other issues. All "truths" are not to be found in the bible, or in any one book. We need to educate ourselves, in order to be truly free.

Sorry, Doreen, I thought you'd already left. (I can't even keep up with my own schedule, so don't feel bad that I screwed up with yours :-)

Diane, I'm glad it works for you. For me, I've tried praying, and there is no answer. Maybe god doesn't want to deal with all my nagging and skepticism?

You know, folks, I only recently learned that Christians, Jews, and Muslims supposedly worship the same god. How interesting, don't you think?

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 14, 2001.

Actually the Bible has a lot to say about disease, In some cases God uses disease to get man's attention. Although disease is not always caused by that. It is mostly caused by sin. When man sinned all of creation fell too. Disease is a natural result of that.

Exodus 15 25 And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them, 26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Psalm 103 1 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. 2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: 3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; 4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; 5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. 6 The LORD executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed. 7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel. 8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. 9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever. 10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. 11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. 12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. 13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. 14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust. 15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. 16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more. 17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; 18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them. 19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. 20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. 21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure. 22 Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.

God also speaks about the scientific issues that beset man. Notice I say beset. The reason I use it is because what prevents man from recognizing his place before God is his inflation of his own intellect. In fact that is what even you admitted above is what keeps you from God. It is what Paul is speaking of here in Romans 1. I am going to insert some comments in here in()

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Notice it says here that men already know the truth of God. Every single man holds the truth in his heart) 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.( In other words man began to think of himself as more important than his Creator. He began to worship his own created logical mind, rather than the one who made him. Rather than thanking God, he chose to ignore him in favor of his own intellect.) 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,( This is a very simple concept) 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

This is from Romans 9

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Ultimately The scientist of Genetic engineering or cloning is not doing anything that has not been done by other men for thousands of years. he is simply taking what has already been created, what already has life and manipulating it. The problem that the scientist has, is that ultimately he can't replicate life. He can't make nonliving raw minerals into living ones. All he is doing is taken what God has already provided and manipulating it as the farmer has in saving his seed. The funny thing to me, is that man then says oh I am so smart! Look at how great I am! Yet he has done nothing!!! Absolutely nothing! In fact many times in his pursuit he has absolutely thrown away the only things that make living on this old rock valuable. He has pursued all that his mind can wrap itself around and yet he has lost his family, his children, and all the opportunities to love.

I really do understand where you are coming from Joe, but like you it is definitely not for me. Logic will never answer the questions you are asking. We can give you logical supportive reasoning, but ultimately faith in God is about faith. Faith requires action on your part. I can't tell you into faith. I can't sell you into faith. I can't yell you into faith. You either have it or you don't. I can pray for you however. I know a story of two different men. The first man was a man that a pastor friend of mine knew. This guy had a reputation of being a real rough customer. All his life he hurt people, stole from people, even stole from this pastors son while working for him. He treated this pastors family lousy. One day the son of the pastor called him and asked him to please go minister to this mean old man as he was dying of cancer. My pastor friend didn't want to go see this guy and complained at God all the way on the two hour trek to the top of the mountain. He told God how means this guy was and how bad he was. When he got up there he found a man on the verge of death, too weak to be mean anymore. Even though the pastor had asked him time and again if he was ready to turn his life over to Jesus, once again he sat down with the man to share the gospel. The pastor wasn't expecting much but the man eagerly asked christ to be the Lord and Savior of his life. Two days later the man died. The second man is a diehard athiest I met who only had one arm. This guy was a militant athiest with no time for God. He also considered himself a scientist and had often distributed handbills against the existence of God. This man had a lovely Christian wife who prayed for him daily. He was my friend and he was a fellow rockhound. We often debated the things of God with one another. The reason the man had only one arm was that he had lost it in an accident with a sawmill. His entire arm was cutoff by the sawmill one day when he and his partner were two hours from a hospital. The man was totally convinced that he was going to bleed to death on the way down the mountain. His friend repeatedly asked him as he sped down the mountain if he wanted to get his life right with God. Even though he expected to die any moment the man refused telling his friend he would rather spend his death as he spent his life, and enemy of God. I don't know if the man is still alive, but he lived through that incident. God gave him more time he didn't deserve. The man was my friend. I hope he made good use of it. Whether he did or not, both of those men will face the consequences of their respective decisions. Ultimately we all have the choice. The choice to believe or not. I still pray for this man and I pray for you Jump-off Joe. I know my prayers may be unwelcome, but if you were about to be hit by a bus I'd try to save you. I hope you would me too. Eternity is a big bus.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), November 14, 2001.

Joe, more and more, science is discovering the truisms of the Bible. that is an awesome testimony to TRUTH. From mathematics, space science to geology and archeology. Pretty cool!

All your scientific theories of evolution and such depend heavily on the element of FAITH that those unproven and unseen components of the theories are true. Secular Humanism and atheism are religions that require "faith" that people are basically good and society warps them, because that is not obvious to the student of humanity.

All through the Bible, God gives us instructions in health and cleanliness, farming practices, household matters, social responsibility and economics and, of course, our spiritual health. Much that is written in the physical is a blueprint for the spiritual. I am radical enough to believe that celebrating Jubilee would solve so many of our financial and social problems in this world. I have yet to find a concept of the human condition that is not addressed somewhere in the Holy Bible.

Yes, there are several different versions and translations of the Bible. The King James is a beautiful melodic translation, but it is quite vague in several areas. The New Jerusalem Bible is quite explicit and points out the differences between original Greek, Hebrew and Latin texts translations. When I have a study problem, I prefer to used a literal Hebrew translation to get the original meaning of the word. Even if you do not believe or follow God, you gotta to admit the dedication of God's people to pass these ancient documents through history in spite of persecution, illiteracy and homelessness!

Joe, I used to have many of the same world views as you. Just as I now study the Bible as far back to original texts as I can, I did the same with these secular death spiral beliefs. The "facts" of every single one of them was funded, published and released by the United Nations and their many tenacles. Population Control is a UN organization using the principles of Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenhood. That agenda is not to reduce world population, but to kill off the poor and "intellectually inferior races."

When you ask me where I got my beliefs and standards, I can hold up my bible and say "Right Here." I may not have a grip on the whole Truth, but I have a grip on the One who IS Truth. When I ask you for your source of standards and belief, what can you provide? The words of dead men?

You know, there are a lot of us who were burned by churchianity and unsound church doctrines and the hypocrits within those walls. But my God and Savior is not limited by walls and doctrine or the small mind of man. He is truly original out-of-the-box personalities. He is not some dry concept out of a book, HE is a LIVING, LOVING, ACTIVE GOD!!!! He is GOD the Father, GOD the Son and GOD the Holy Spirit!

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

LB, I didn't ASK about "diseases". I asked about SPECIFIC diseases.

Laura, you say, "The "facts" of every single one of them was funded, published and released by the United Nations and their many tenacles. Population Control is a UN organization using the principles of Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenhood. That agenda is not to reduce world population, but to kill off the poor and "intellectually inferior races."

Does the bible teach you paranoia? Where in the bible does it tell you this bunk about the UN? Just when do you think the UN was started? It may not have occurred to you, blinded by Jeezus, but there is no small body of work out there which SLIGHTLY predates the UN. Sheesh. LOL.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 14, 2001.

Yawn.

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 14, 2001.

Little Bit sez: "I don't know if the man is still alive, but he lived through that incident. God gave him more time he didn't deserve."

No judgement there? Little Bit has determined he didn't deserve more time. How very Christian of ya.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 14, 2001.

Doreen: You say "John, please don't interpret the commandments."

Random House college dictionary IDOLATRY= Excessive or blind adoration or reverance

That seems to fit the attitude of many toward the bible. Its a FACT that the bible has been diddled with in the early days of the Church. Its also a fact that the early church, about 600 AD played fast and loose with the scriptures and did some picking and choosing to suit their own unholy agenda and reinterpreted the bible to suit their own agendas. That does not mean IMO that there is no truth in the bible, merely that it has been distorted and selectively edited. You cite science verifying alot of whats in the bible. I know thats true.

In particular the book of genesis is almost a carbon copy of the Babylonian creation myth. Its not at all unlikely considering that the early Jews spent alot of time with the Babylonians, learning from them and sharing knowledge with them. Now you'll likely deny this thus providing more evidence supporting the bible idolatry comment.

Many people revere money and place it before God. In that way they too are idolaters.

I've said before I readily recognize and acknowledge the truths in the bible but I do reserve the right and duty to interpret things for myself.

And don't give me this crap about a manmade philosophy etc. As soon as you read a passage in the bible and understand it to the best of your ability you've inadvertantly and unavoidably turned it into a "manmade philosophy" simply because you have no choice but to filter it thru your own mind and arrive at your own conclusions and understanding. If you have no understanding of your own you've become merely a scripture spouting parrot. Your's and my own understanding may be incomplete or even inaccurate so we may be off base about the original intent and meaning of this or that scripture but nonetheless it is still our own understanding at the moment and hopefully subject to change as our understanding and vision deepens.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 14, 2001.

None of us deserve more time. It is only by the grace of God that we get anytime at all. We are without excuse before God.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), November 14, 2001.

Ohhh, specific diseases! My question is what difference does it make. I am sure those diseases made them just as ill. When's the last time you broke out in boils for instance, or had a gastrointestinal disease that made your bowels fall out. Seems to me that what worked then might just work now. But I know you would rather trust the allopaths than the Christ who healed with a touch. Of course dying in a hospital with chemicals running into your system to kill your cancer and tubes down your throat and nose is a better way to die. Barium enemas notwithstanding it must be better right.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), November 14, 2001.

Joe, please don't mock my Lord with a spelling of His name like that.

Be back later.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 15, 2001.

I'm sure HE will find it in his big ol' heart to get over it somehow. Besides, I had no choice, as god is omnipotent. He made me do it.

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 15, 2001.

Yeah, you guys seem to know everything. You are always right. You have all of the answers, because God told you all of them.

Or did He?

The Bible may have originally been the Word of God, but that word has been handed down to us over the centuries by MEN, men who make mistakes, men who (some of them) deliberately distort the content to their own ends, in short FALLIBLE men.

True, the Bible has warnings about what happens to those who tamper with The Word, but the fact that one shouldn't tamper with it for fear of dire consequences does NOT neccessarily mean that it hasn't been tampered with. We all know how foolish some people can be....

BTW, John, thanks for the definition of idolatry, I wondered what that meant, and I see that it's obviously bad.

Say, there are many non-Christians out there that are JUST AS CONVINCED as you are that God has provided them with THE TRUTH. Who is to say though one of them may be right and you are wrong. Maybe both sides are wrong. Maybe both are RIGHT?

According to many of you, the way I see it, THE authoritative Word of God is composed of a collection of over 60 documents by ranging in age from 2000 - 5000 years and that have been translated and transcribed COUNTLESS times by generations of fallible MEN. The only time I won't take ANY claim of the Truth with a grain of salt is only if it comes from the mouth of God Himself, directly to me, with no intermediaries in between to muddy and distort the Word. The Human Heart is too full of deceit for me to do otherwise.

Why am I bothering to say anything anyway? The Second Hardest Thing to change in the Universe is another person's mind. The ones that agree with me will continue to agree, while the rest will go on believing what they believe, regardless of what I say. I'm just bored I guess -_-.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), November 16, 2001.

Nexar, god's hand guided their pens, styluses, feathers, whatever, so it has to be right. No human fallacy permitted; you should have known that, as the "truth" will always be true, even if it's not!

JOJ

-- joj (jump@off.c), November 16, 2001.