(This thread splits off a discussion about what is/is not a rangefinder camera so that the original thread (on a different topic) dosn't get cluttered. I'll be back to post some thoughts, but first I'm setting up a link so the others (if interested) can find their way here.)

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), November 17, 2001

Answers

First off, if you want to see the beginning of this discussion/debate/ whatever it becomes, here's where the riot started.

Phil Stiles: Yes, my definition of rangefinder probably has to include the Yashica T4, assuming it measures distance for focusing in some way. (nice lens, by the way.) Maybe we'll find out if my definition was flawed.

The more I think about this, the more I think it's a case of 'convergent evolution'.

The Leica (and original Contax) rangefinders were the first widely used 35mm cameras. Over time the 35mm camera evolved and branched into a variety of 'species': interchangeable lens RFs, fixed lens RFs, SLRs, half-frame RFs or SLRs, etc. Autoexposure, autofocus, and autowind all subdivided these species further. Eventually the fixed-lens rangefinders of the 1960's-1970's (Canonet, Konica S, Yashica G, etc.) disappeared; within that photographic "ecological niche" they either were replaced by or evolved into auto-everything point-and-shoots.

I think Phil is right in that, genetically speaking, the Contax G line evolved technologically out of the point-and-shoot species, while the Leicas are straight-line descendents from the original blood-line, functionally and technologically.

But just as mammalian dolphins have converged on fishes, structurally and functionally, in order to compete in the same environment, I think the Contax G is aimed at the Leica's niche, and so it has adapted and changed substantially from the point-and-shoot form to be very similar to the Leica in many respects.

By definition, you don't make detailed settings on point-and-shoot cameras; you point 'em and shoot 'em. Yes, there are some exceptions here and there, but on the prototypical P&S you can't choose shutter speed or aperture or set focus manually, or vary the motor speed, or choose a specific focal length lens or a fast lens.

You can do all these things with the Contax, and you can do them with the Leica.

In the previous thread some highly rated photographers were identified as using the Contax G. Most of them made their reputations originally using Leicas. I find it interesting that when they chose to try something more automated, they found the Gs to be a comfortable substitute that fit the style they had developed using the Ms.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), November 17, 2001.

Not sure if that was needed or not. But I thought I'd do it.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), November 17, 2001.

Well that cryptic post was about the fact that I put in the HTML script to stop the link from the post above.

[Andy's original response has been edited to correct the HTML link. -T]

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), November 17, 2001.

The best answer to the question, "When is a rangefinder not a rangefinder?" is, of course, when you put a Visoflex on an M camera and turn it into an SLR. I did this the other day, by the way, when I was doing some macro work.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), November 17, 2001.

A camera is not a rangefinder. The camera may include a rangefinder for distance measuring. My Minox GTE does not include a rangefinder, for focusing it depends on myself to be a rangeguesser/rangeestimator. My old Agfa Ambi Silette has a built in rangefinder, and the M6 I got last week also has a built in rangefinder. So the Agfa and the Leica M6 are rangefinder-cameras, the Minox is not.

-- Peter Olsson (peter.olsson@lulebo.se), November 19, 2001.

M6 has optical rangefinder, Contax G1/G2 has infrared rangefinder, Minox GT-E is VIEWFINDER camera,it has not rangefinder. As for manual control of shutter speed and aperture, that is a total different matter, independent of rangefinder. A camera may have a rangefinder but no manual control ( most compact 35mm ) or a camera has only a viewfinder no rangefinder yet provide full manual control of shutter and aperture.(Rollei 35 )

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), November 19, 2001.