Ghouls’n Ghosts (Olympiad) - Who’s the best?greenspun.com : LUSENET : MAME Action Replay : One Thread |
Score alone is by no means a correct way to establish who the best player is. It has been remarked that distance is more important than score. This is true but only applies to non-finished games and so far two players (Blost and François Daniel) did manage to get to the end of the game. So when it comes to finished games only the score settles the matter? Again, the answer is NO WAY. Everyone will agree, I hope, that the best player is the one who manages to score the more points by finishing the game and losing the less lives. Also very important is that the player does not repeat (voluntarily or not) last level of round 2. The reason for all this is quite evident: when you die you’re sent back to the beginning (or half) of a level, where you can earn points you had already earned and that the player that doesn’t die cannot earn: worse player gets more points as a result of his own ineptitude. This is sheer nonsense, isn’t it? Now, the current ranking (based solely on score) is: 1) François Daniel 339,900 2) Innuendo 261,100 3) Blost 250,900. I now intend to show the actual ranking is: 1) Blost 2) François Daniel 3) Innuendo. To begin with, Innuendo, unlike Blost and François, did not finish the game (died 4th level of round 2), so this automatically places him in 3rd position. François died 8 times (often at the very end of a level) and repeated last level of round 2 twice, which enabled him to get an unwarranted amount of points (the fact that he apologizes for this is to his credit but does not change the facts). Blost, on the other hand, died only twice and did not repeat last level of round 2 (strictly speaking he did because he died at Beelzebub but that doesn’t really matter). There are no doubts, then, that he who showed off most skill and should therefore be awarded 1st position is Blost. He can only be surpassed by someone who scores EITHER more than his 250,900 by dying no more than twice and not repeating last level of round 2 OR less than 250,900 by dying less than twice and not repeating last level of round two.This may look complicated (in fact it’s not) but is absolutely necessary or else the competition will inevitably turn into an embarassing farce...
-- Michele "MKL" Nassivera (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), November 21, 2001
It's certainly not complicated, I think most people will agree, however the problem is with changing the rules after the competition has started, I think that will cause a much bigger mess than just using an unfair scoring system. This is something coordinators should think about for the next Olympiad, as this reasoning applies pretty well to all finishable games. Won't work for the leaderboard though... too much trouble.
-- Tenchi (rpeng@usc.edu), November 21, 2001.
Mmmm ... it looks like my 6 months old idea of rewarding someone finishing the game with "1000000xnumber of lifes left" for this game was not useless
-- phil (plamat@club-internet.fr), November 21, 2001.
I agree with you, Michele. But when I set the rules, I dont think I'll play so badly... ;-) but for the next olympiads, make a scoring system based on the lifes left will be fair. Now, we can't change the rules, it will be more a farce than you said. Yes, today I win but with another system, I'll play enough for try to win, too. You're right but your question come to late.I have a question for you. Why you haven't play with us ? You've made score better than us, no ?
François
-- Francois Daniel (francois-daniel@libertysurf.fr), November 21, 2001.
We must establish universal rules for this game (i.e. not only for olympiads). If marp rankings are to be ordered according to score, then Phil Lamat’s proposal (1 million for every spare life at the end) appears to be the most effective solution. I would only modify it in one respect: the bonus life found in a pot (the little knight) should not count because it not always turns up and getting it is just a matter of luck, not skill. Also, repeating at will last level of round 2 should be banned (I managed to score 1,258,900 with that method) or, alternatively, a marathon ranking should be added beside the regular (“tournament”) ranking. If a player happens to arrive at the end of the level without the magic weapon and is sent back to the beginning, then the points he collects in the repetition of the level should be subtracted from his final score.François, I did not mean to be offensive when I said “farce”, sorry... but I’m also sorry that Blost, who exhibited the best gameplay, ended up third: this is what I actually meant.
Why haven’t I played with you? Well, the main reason is that I wasn’t happy with your decision to use mame55 as this suffers from too many bugs and slowdowns. I think that for official competitions the last final version should be used (in this case 0.36 final, which is very stable), unless of course the roms are changed (which is not the case of Ghouls) or a given game is only available on later versions.
Anyway, congrats to you, Blost and Innuendo, for you are all very good Ghouls players ;-)
Michele
-- Michele "MKL" Nassivera (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), November 22, 2001.
Perhaps, 3 lifes only can be a good thing. Sorry Michele, If I'd know for 36 Final, It will be accepted. I take 0.55 because it's the last release and because I haven't seen bugs or slowdown on it. My goal was only a challenge betwin all the best players. I'm very sorry you are not with us.Francois
-- Francois Daniel (francois@libertysurf.fr), November 22, 2001.
Not to downgrade Phils 6 month old dream, however i have a doubt. With a scoring bonus of 1000000 per life left: it is easy to score (for confirmers) since you just look at the lives left but you still have to worry about ban repeating of levels.I'd say if you award a big bonus 1000000 for those who do not die at the end of finishing, and a lesser bonus 7500000/500000/250000 (for those who lose 1/2/3 lives during the game but still finish): this would solve both the problem of leeching (since you have to die to repeat a level thus losing your bonus) and the problem of the bonus pot since you do not gain any extra bonus by getting the bonus knight.
-- Chad (churritz@crash.cts.com), November 22, 2001.
Hello Michele. Thanks. I´ve tried with all my skills to make Brazil first, but like in soccer, lose to France again. I need to practice more. While this, you found a new rival on Ghouls´n Ghosts. And I need to beat that 3.600.000 in Goblins. Ramatan, you´re a very good player, congratulations for your gnga inp.
-- INNUENDO-DF (funit@bol.com.br), November 22, 2001.
Chad, the real leeching problem is last level of round 2 and you don't have to die to repeat that level... Anyway, special rules for this game are a long-felt desideratum, so please let's vote...
-- Michele "MKL" Nassivera (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), November 23, 2001.
hmm, i forgot about finishing and repeating with out the special weapon. And it would be grey area to penalize repeating the second level more than once if there was no chance to get the weapon (granted there are many it's possible to legitimately miss the weapon...) I have no clue.
-- Chad (churritz@crash.cts.com), November 23, 2001.
I know this sounds stupid, but if someone repeats the last level of round two, then why don't you just subtract the points they got from repeating it?
-- Joe Ledesma (JoeyL21988@yahoo.com), November 23, 2001.
Joey:I don´t think its a stupid idea at all. Why not give it a try?Regards QRS
-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), November 23, 2001.
Yes, the idea sounds good. But poor confirmers :-) They must see the inp more than once. Because, they don't know if the player made a loop the first time they see it :-) And die by time after killing the Bee for leeching is accepted :-)François
-- Francois Daniel (francois-daniel@libertysurf.fr), November 24, 2001.
The idea of subtracting the points one earns in the repetition of last level of round 2 was suggested in my second message above. I'm only glad other people thought of the same thing.Yes, calculating a score in accordance with the rules proposed here may sound like a tiresome task but it's mandatory. If necessary, I can offer my help in this matter.
-- Michele "MKL" Nassivera (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), November 24, 2001.
Oh, hehe. Didn't even realize that Michele ;) I had the idea myself, so I didn't steal it, so we both are thinking alike :)
-- Joe Ledesma (JoeyL21988@yahoo.com), November 24, 2001.
Very good idea Skito .... Bonus for a finished game with 0 life lost = 1000000 Bonus for a finished game with 1 life lost = 750000 Bonus for a finished game with 2 lifes lost = 500000 Bonus for a finished game with 3 lifes lost = 250000Now we should vote to adopt this scoring if everybody is ok, and edit all scores with the correct scoring, no ?
-- phil (plamat@club-internet.fr), December 02, 2001.
Phil, I think that your own idea is better because it's more straightforward and does not blur the original score: according to it, my 276,900 (no life lost/8 lives at the end) would be 8,276,900. Blost's 250,900 (2 lives lost/5 lives at the end) would be 5,250,900. Initial 8 or 5 or whatever indicates the number of lives at the end, rather than real millions and what follows is the actual score. According to Skito's idea, my 276,900 would be 1,276,900 but Blost's 250,900 would be 750,900: the actual score is no longer transparent in this case.All in all, I think your proposal is superior and I'd rather vote for that...Let's only hope those in charge (Skito?) will want to apply it...
-- Michele "MKL" Nassivera (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), December 02, 2001.
I formulate the special rules as follows:Rule 1. Player is awarded a 1 million point bonus for each spare life at the end of the game. The bonus life occasionally found in a pot (little knight icon) does not count.
Rule2. Points collected in the iteration of 5th level of round 2 do not count and must be subtracted from player’s final score. Possible bonus lives resulting from these points do not count for the 1 million bonus.
Confirmers need not watch an inp file more than once: all they have to do is write down how many times player dies and how many points player has at the end of 5th level of round 2. If then player manages to finish the game (no matters after how many iterations of 5th level), 10k points (= Lucifer) will be added. Also, confirmers need not check whether or not player has collected the ‘pot life’ because the 1 million bonus is directly calculated from score: bonus lives are in fact won at 30k, 60k, 130k, 200k, 270k, 340k. Let’s assume a player finished the game with score 215k and died 5 times, then he will have 2 spare lives at the end (7 – 5) and his definitive score will therefore be 2,215,000 (note that the maximum amount of spare lives at the end of the game is 8: if you never die you can get more than 270k but no more than 340k. Actually no more than 300k).
Let’s now examine a few actual cases, starting from Olympiad winner François Daniel’s game. His spurious score is 339,900 pts. After defeating for the first time 5th level boss in round 2 he had 296,100 pts and since he eventually managed to finish the game we must add 10k, which gives 306,100 pts. He died 8 times and since he originally earned 339,900 pts he must have won 5 bonus lives (he missed the 6th for just 100 pts) which added to the 3 initial lives give a total of 8 lives. Then, 8 minus 8 equals 0, meaning that he will be awarded no million bonus: his definitive score is 306,100 pts. This seeming contradiction (he did have one spare life at the end) is explained by the fact that he collected the ‘pot life’.
Blost’s score, 250,900 pts, is more straightforward: he died twice and did not iterate 5th level of round 2. From his score I infer that he collected 7 lives (including the 3 initial ones). Then, 7 minus 2 equals 5. His definitive score will be 5,250,900.
My own score, 276,900 pts: I did not die nor iterate 5th level of round 2. I had 8 spare lives at the end of the game. My definitive score will be 8,276,900.
See, it’s as simple as that...
-- Michele "MKL" Nassivera (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), December 04, 2001.
Hmm , so scores of 8m on Ghouls + Ghosts are possible now ?What would Twin Galaxies think of that....:)
Sorry for butting-in......( couldn`t resist )
AL
-- AL (alexweir@indigo.ie), December 04, 2001.
I don't think Michele's gonna be too happy about Team2ch's million point upload...
-- Tenchi (rpeng@usc.edu), December 05, 2001.
Well, a few months ago I discussed the matter briefly with Walter Day of TG and he agreed to setting the rule "best player scores the most points by finishing the game on 1 life and without repeating 5th level of round 2". This would be the "Tournament Settings", as opposed to the "Marathon Setings", where only points matter. Mark Longridge accepted this distinction too (see his webpage).I'm only glad that other good Ghouls player challenge my leadership, however mixing Tournament and Marathon games only makes things even more messed up than they already are (note that I deleted my 1,258,900 inp). What we need now is making the special rules (as described above) operative. If then we decide to also add Marathon rankings (which I recommend), I'll be happy to beat TKY's brand new ghoulsj score...
-- Michele "MKL" Nassivera (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), December 05, 2001.