We practice CAE prevention. However, I have always had the question of "does it really work"? If even letting the doe clean her baby after birth can pass it, how can she carry the kids inside her in all that bodily fluid, and it not get passed that way? She is sharing her very life's blood with the baby.

I know there are alot of very knowledgeable goat people on here, so was hoping to find some answers. Thanks.

-- Kim Bailey (bailey@hilly-acre.com), November 24, 2001

Answers

Response to CAE question

I dont the the specifics for CAE,, but embronic (?) fluid if the BEST filter,, it can even filter HIV from babys. That would be my guess

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), November 24, 2001.

Response to CAE question

"I dont the the specifics for CAE,, but embronic (?) fluid if the BEST filter,, it can even filter HIV from babys. That would be my guess"

First off, embrionic fluid (in any mammal) is NOT a filter. It is mostly there to act as a shoke absorber to prevent injury while the baby is inside. The fluid itself is mostly saline (salt water) but also carries the baby's waste (pre-birth urine/stools). The only thing that does filter stuff is the umbilical cord where the baby recieves it's mother's blood. Actually the process is called osmosis, and only very fine particals/cells can transfer through a single cell think membrane to enter the baby. Please note that HIV CAN BE SPREAD THRU THE UMBILICAL CORD. It does not always happen, but there are very well documented cases of HIV infected mothers passing this to their unborn babies. Much of the risk depends on the viral load that mom is carrying...a heavy viral load = greater risk that a few of the HIV cells will pass this membrane & infect baby. HIV can also be transmitted thru breat milk if mom is infected. Please folks educate yourself on HIV, this is a potential life & death situation. I don't mean to nag, but I am in health care and this type of mis-information is dangerous!

-- ellie (elnorams@aol.com), November 24, 2001.

Response to CAE question

Actually, the mother's blood supply never makes contact with her baby's blood supply. It's only the various nutrients the baby needs to grow on that pass through the placenta, not blood.

That doesn't answer your question, though, and frankly I'm not sure there is one. I've practiced CAE prevention for 20 years in my herd, and still get seropositive animals from time to time. And I also so have first hand knowledge of a doe who had been seronegative for all her life, converting to CAE positive in her 12th year even though she had been in an 100% CAE negative herd for the last six years.

It may be the question is "what is CAE negative?" rather than "is it worth it?".

-- Julia (charmer24@juno.com), November 24, 2001.

Response to CAE question

Julia and ellie are right in their answer about CAE and embryonic fluid. Recently I was reading some research and also discussed this with a few experienced Alpine breeders, it can be transmitted in- utero in some cases. So..... does this mean that CAE prevention is not effective or important? I think it still is important to practice prevention. I'll see if i can find the article in my messy desk someplace.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), November 24, 2001.

Response to CAE question

Think of it in another way. Why are you practicing CAE prevention. I am doing it for the money and for the health of the goats. Does with CAE simply do not have the lifespan of does without it, yes there are the few non-symptomatic does, but that is not the norm. The loss of milk production is the biggy. The loss of sales for me is the biggest, nobody is going to buy stock from me for the prices I charge without prevention and testing.

Now even having said that I do know that we do not have all the answers with CAE. All a CAE test tells you is that you are positive, which means forever or the doe is negative, which means right now this minute she has no virus in her blood to be detected. She can have tommorrow, after a stress the titer can rise and then be detected. I also know, no not scientifically at this point that there is transmission from some failure of placentas like how a mom gives her child HIV or German Measeles inutero. Some placentas fail some don't. I do not believe that birth fluids and licking are passing CAE, if all of this were true than 100% of all thegoats would have it when we started testing, right? And they didn't only those who drank pooled colostrum and milk, which for me was all of my younger stock. CAE prevention also gives you basic protection from microplasam and CL, both things which are much worse and harder to get rid of. Nobody can tell anybody else what management to choose, everybody has their priorites. The most reliable CAE test is after the sale of the goat, after the kidding of the new goat, and for me the goats I sell to other folks. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 24, 2001.

Response to CAE question

Guess I should mention that I really don't know much about CAE so I'll leave that to the goat experts on here. Sorry, got carried away with the HIV info!

-- ellie (eagle-quest@juno.com), November 24, 2001.

the amniotic sac (of which there are two in women: the amnion and the chorion...i don't know goats) prevents infection from passing from the vagina into the uterus. when the bag is broken, then infection can enter. having internal exams at the end of pregnancy with non-sterile gloves as doctors mostly do can lead to infection, if the bag should break soon thereafter, or if there is a small leak that is undetected. the same would apply to goats, i am sure.

the blood between the baby and mother CAN cross. to say it never crosses is completely wrong. it is NOT SUPPOSED to cross. because it can is why folks are worried about the Rh factor. Things that can make the bloods cross would be a blow to the stomach (like a car wreck or a fall), or a very difficult birth, but I know a woman who had it cross with no trauma (an Rh thing I don't want to get into now), and so even though it can't happen and shouldn't happen without trauma it can. Just thought I'd get point this out from a midwifery perspective. Still, I don't worry about blood mixing without trauma.

-- marcee (thathope@mwt.net), November 25, 2001.