Hello, Would you consider a good idea to bring a freshly new, out of the box, Noctilux lens on vacations with you to India?

-- Zacharie Dindar (dindar@ccr.jussieu.fr), November 30, 2001

Answers

Yes. What's the point of having a lens if you don't use it. These aren't ancient artifacts, they are tools to make images. Use them.

That having been said, I wouldn't take a new lens as my ONLY lens, and I would tun a roll through the camera to make sure the lens is working correctly before I left.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), November 30, 2001.

Noctilux thieves abound in India.

Just kidding ;-)

Maybe put a clear filter in front of the element? It does get dusty there y'know.

On the other hand, if Rob Appleby (who has real, professional and extensive experience in India) has anything to say about this, I defer to him.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), November 30, 2001.

Dear Rob : If you read these lines, I would be pleased if you could give me any suggestions...

Zacharie

-- Zacharie Dindar (dindar@ccr.jussieu.fr), November 30, 2001.

I really don't get why people say what country they are going to when they ask whether or not a lens is good to take along (this is not meant to directly criticize you). Sure, some countries have higher theft rates than others, but it really depends on what areas you will be staying in. In a first class resort anywhere in the world there will be little need to worry more in one place than another. In the slums well once again poor people are all over the place (except maybe sweden, but that's because they have socialism and make volvos), and poor people often think they are morally justified in taking somebody’s "useless" luxuries in order to feed their children (seriously, think about it... it may be their moral obligation to steal from a rich ignorant tourist because the utility they get from the theft - i.e. food - is often greater then the use the tourist gets - i.e. the ability to chat on this forum and brag about the greatness of leicas).

What matters is what you want to shoot. If you are going to shoot animals you need telephotos. If you are only doing street shots, just a 35 or maybe a 28 might do. If you want low light pictures then bring a noctilux. Almost half the day is dark all over the world (at least at the places most people live). If you want to shoot at this time without a flash bring a fast lens. If you are worried about it getting stolen get theft insurance. There is no use in having a lens you don't use... and if you are scared somebody will snag it (because of the financial repercussions), you either shouldn't have the lens because you can't afford it, or need insurance.

P.S. I second the recommendation for a UV filter, one for each of your lenses... paved roads and widespread irrigation are things that aren't incredibly common in countries like India, or continents like Africa and thus you get lots of dust.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), November 30, 2001.

The question is not wether I can afford the lens or an insurance. That's not your business. If you're paranoid with thieves that's not my problem either. I was just asking for technical recommendations. Remarks like yours are unnecessary and are pure waste of time for me to read. Zacharie

-- Zacharie Dindar (dindar@ccr.jussieu.fr), November 30, 2001.

take whatever you need to any place in the world, as long as it is insured. with little caution it is pretty safe. store it in a deposit box when you can't take it with you. it still is terrible to get your toys stolen, but less painfull if you get the chance of replacing it. i would recommend a small backup. i always take a olympus xa stored in a different place from the rest of my gear. rather a simple camera but always better than none...

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), November 30, 2001.

Zacharie, I wasn't trying to insult you by saying you were "too poor" or something like that... what i was trying to say is that the only major concern in a "poorer" area of the world is theft (which is something you as well as everybody else traveling there should be prepared for - either through "self-insurance" or insurance with some other company) and the issue of whether or not you will use the lens... for most people - even relatively well to do people - a Noctilux is a substantial amount of money (and judging by your description of "a freshly new, out of the box, Noctilux" my guess was that the fact that it was new - and inevitably more valuable - meant the cost of the item was part of the issue - otherwise these explicatives would be unnecessary). if you were insulted by what you thought was a provocation saying that you were "too poor to afford one" then I truly recommend more travel in the third world so that this no longer seems like an insult (anybody that can even think of owning a $2000 specialty lens shouldn't have to worry about money much - sure they many think they have problems, but they won't be living on the street or starving)... lets face it a noctilux is a luxury item, not needed (unless its your job), but nice to have. Other then theft "poorer" areas of the world are pretty much the same as "richer" areas for photography... any piece of camera equipment has pretty much the same uses in your "home" country, if you want to shoot animals take telephotos if you shoot in low light take a noctilux.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), November 30, 2001.

Hi, Zacharie:

Aside from sociological considerations I can only think of a question as an answer to your question: Why not . . .?

And I really think it is very difficult for anybody else to issue a solid answer (either YES or NO) because it only depends upon your personal approach to photography.

And then, you bought it because of some reason, didn't you ?

And I'd say that your first concern should be to enjoy your vacations trip, with or without the Noct, right ? For one, I wholeheartfully wish you do.

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), November 30, 2001.

I am told that someone makes "disposable cameras" and that some of them even have built-in flash! I'm sure the optics must be FANTASTIC. I'm sure some local camera stores (or perhaps Wal-Mart) must stock this new innovation. Good luck in India.

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), November 30, 2001.

I can't think of any compelling reasons not to, except for the weight (as you've noticed already, it's a substantial piece of glass)--do you really want to haul all that around?

I also try to get any new gear well before a trip, so that I can run some film through/past it and make sure it is working OK, and that I know how to use it. When the locale is an unfamiliar one and you want to get some good shots, operating the camera should be second nature. The Noctilux has its own peculiarities, and it might be a good idea to learn them before you take off---but if you haven't, that's no reason to leave it behind. The Noct really extends the range of what's possible for available-light shooting.

-- Chuck Albertson (chucko@siteconnect.com), November 30, 2001.

My best friend spends a great deal of time in India and Nepal on business every year and is married to a Hindu Woman.He has been trying to get me to go over for years but always points out to leave the Leica home. He says it is just too risky and bring the older Nikon... its necessary to blend in he says....dont bring new Nike shoes etc...dress poor and grow your beard. He doesnt bathe that much either so to appear poor. One scam is this...while on a train someone offers you food kindly or drink for your thirst. You kindly accept and the next thing you sleep because of drugs and everything is gone when you wake up.Basically, watch your ass over there.India ain't no picnic. Having said that I would still bring my Leica...the noct would be very heavy though. Best Regards and good luck.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), November 30, 2001.

Sigh.

I make a wisecrack about thieves recognizing and coveting Leica Noctiluxes in distant India, and several of the respondents take me literally :-(

Slander not the noble land of my birth, nor its people :-)

If it is any help at all, street theft and tourist-oriented crime is not very strongly correlated to poverty. I've travelled enough to know that that sociological/moral theory about necessity being the mother of moral lapse is utter bunk.

For instance, in most countries in Asia, one feels quite safe in most precincts, and certainly considerably safer as a tourist than in some Mediterranean countries in Europe.

It seems to be a very commonplace misnomer that people in poor countries are half crazed hungry desparadoes who have nothing to lose.

No.

Most "poor" countries in the old world have become "poor" or appear poor only in comparision to industrialized countries which have seen enormous economic growth (and social change-sometimes for the worse) in the last 100 years.

In these "poor" old-world countries life and society often just continues as it always has. The social fabric is old, strong and supportive. People have strong moral codes, and live ordinary lives as husbands, wifes, children, earners, providers just as they always have, in well-knit patterns of life, thank you very much. So, you cannot assume that because some societies have incomes below some arbitrarily specified dollar level, that things have fallen apart and everyone is a thief.

Society is certainly no more inherently looser in its moral strictures than in the West.

Where things often start to breakdown is at the intersection of the mdoern and the old, when people have to jettison much of their old lives to fit into the new, usually out of necessity but this does not mean that where there is a slum, your Leicas are at risk instantly. In Venezuela or Nigeria, they may be. In Costa Rica or Cambodia, they might not.

And to put in something useful, many homes in India are darker than Western homes at night, but by the same token, lighting in via bare overhead bulbs or flourescents. An f1 comes in handy then. More to the point, there is much street life in the evenings and early night, and this too will put a Noctilux to use. Lastly, in more traditional homes, and modern ones too, indoor lighting during the day is dim- windows are often smaller to keep out the heat. So again, f1 gets you that edge in hand-held situations.

Rob, where are you when I need you?

Sorry Zacharie, and Tony too, to get off thread. Tony, please delete this stuff if it intrudes, but I felt some of the speculations above needed to be addressed.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), December 01, 2001.

Getting back on track here... When I travel I keep my Leica in a Domke satchel. It's with me at all times, even at dinner. I try to be on guard and I don't take stupid risks. With that said, if thieves want your stuff badly enough, whether it's a Leica or a Jeep Cherokee, there going to get it. Get some insurance to help cut some of your loss if you're ripped off, but go shoot pictures and have fun. My only concern about the Noctilux on a trip would be the additional weight. However, if you envision some low-light situations that rarely present themselves, by all means take the lens and use the hell out of it. Have fun. Dennis

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), December 01, 2001.

sorry... "there" should be "they're" (very anal about typos) Dennis

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), December 01, 2001.

Dear Mani, Emile, Dennis, Chuck, I thank you very much for the rich comments and advises that you gave me. :-) Zacharie

-- Zacharie Dindar (dindar@ccr.jussieu.fr), December 01, 2001.

Hello Zacharie in response to your question i've just returned from a 4 month trip to S E Asia and the Indian region of Ladakh. I took one M6 TTL 0.85 and the Noctilux latest model. My only other camera was a 120 Plaubel 670 with a fixed lens. I only ever used the Noctilux at F1 and am now processing the results which look great.. Take it and enjoy you will certainly not be dissapointed. Simon Larbalestier

-- Simon Larbalestier (info@simon-larbalestier.co.uk), December 01, 2001.

I wouldn't take a brand new lens on vacation. Do you know that it works? That it didn't get damaged in shipping? That you like what your photos look like at f1? I generally don't take anything new.

I found the comments about "poor" countries to be incredibly offensive. I just returned from Mexico, where a cab driver came back to my hotel to return a backpack (a day later) that had several hundred dollars worth of immediately sellable electronics (non- phototgraphic.) In Morocco, a cab driver sat outside my hotel for four hours waiting for me (they are not allowed in) because I had dropped a finder in a black pouch in his cab. I didn't even know it was gone.

The only countries where I have had threat of camera removal are the United States and France. When I travel outside the US, it's with a Mamiya 7, and I keep it out (how could I shoot otherwise), and no problems. I don't stay at tourist resorts either, generally I'm in cities or small villages.

Maybe the person who made the comments is just ignorant and hasn't traveled much outside the US, but I feel a lot safer, and safer about my equipment, in an impoverished Latin American village than in middle America.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), December 01, 2001.

I would like to respond to the comments about poor countries, as many have found my comments to be offensive. I would like to believe that i am not "ignorant," I have traveled in more than 15 countries in 4 continents (short 1 or 2 day trips not included). Notice that i never identified a specific "poorer area of the world" and said "some countries have higher theft rates than others, but it really depends on what areas you will be staying in"... this was meant to imply poor areas anywhere including the US and Europe... i do not feel threatened walking around in a small town in the Midwest, or on an island off belize or even in the bush in Zululand, although there are drastic differences in wealth in these places, they have one common thread, a unifying culture and tradition and the stability it gives them. I do not view these people as desperate (and i guess this would have probably been a more appropriate word). People in inner-city LA, Guatemala city, some bigger cities in Europe, and certainly Johannesburg or Nairobi are often desperate. When i travel i never stay in resorts (read never... not once). I have never had somebody try to steal my equipment while there which i attribute to my size (6'3" and 245lbs) as well as the fact that i keep it out of sight while there, unless i feel safe enough to take the equipment out. I have talked to many, many travelers that have had their camera's or bags or the like stolen. It may be because they do stupid things, but it may also due to the desperate needs SOME poorer people feel (and in my opinion are often justified in feeling)... Most of the time these people will be social outcasts (gangs, displaced seasonal factory laborers, etc.) and they are much more common in poorer areas than rich ones. This includes "here at home" as well as abroad. So, i stand by my statement that you need to look out for theft in poorer areas of the world. Not all poorer areas, not only poorer areas outside europe and the US, but all poorer areas. In some, possibly even many, places looking out will not be necessary, but at times it will be... and that's why you should use caution until you understand the culture of that place.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), December 02, 2001.

I take your point about lens recommendations for different countries. I also have to weigh choices on equipment depending on anticipated use, locations and weight. If I were going to India soon, I would take a Noctilux. Being days away from the darkest day of the year, it would make sense to me. Regarding the rich vs poor thread that has appeared here; (which I believe that you never intended) Just what is it that makes some people believe that they are peceived as westerners? For that matter, that they have such valuable things on them? It seems to me to be the height of arrogance that some tourists think of themselves as a among a slew of poor, and therefore, thieves. What is the point of even leaving your home if you believe that your property is at risk? You bought you camera system to use and enjoy, and in some cases to document the rich and the poor, the beautiful and the ugly. Insure your gear, be sure that your coverage is valid worldwide, and explore with your gear in hand. If you are concerned about thievery, then I should advise you that we also have it here in kanton Zürich!

TschÜss

-- Reto B. (redcave@schweiz.com), December 05, 2001.

to all those who may be concerned...I as a photographer and (tax exile) resident of bangladesh have read the comments that have transpired within the last couple of days on the subject of the noctilux lens with no small degree of interest. It is apparent to me that all of you are a bunch of low-brow proletarieate trash...Imagine..to even consider the impoverished residents of the world to be viable human beings...In deed, my chaufer is paid more than doctor in bangladesh. and shood one of those ofensive things come within ten feet of my Rolls-Royce Bascomb (my chaufer) has been instructed to make full use of the accelerator and steering wheels in an effort to run over and exterminate the peice of filth that is breathing my air..I would not be so crass as to allow myself to become close enough to the milling throng of the starving to give one of them the chance to steal my Noctilux lens (platinum plated, of course).

-- Mahatma Cane Jeeves. (mcanejeeves@hotmail.com), December 06, 2001.

to all those who may be concerned...I as a photographer and (tax exile) resident of bangladesh have read the comments that have transpired within the last couple of days on the subject of the noctilux lens with no small degree of interest. It is apparent to me that all of you are a bunch of low-brow proletarieate trash...Imagine..to even consider the impoverished residents of the world to be viable human beings...In deed, my chaufer is paid more than doctor in bangladesh. and shood one of those ofensive things come within ten feet of my Rolls-Royce, Bascomb (my chaufer) has been instructed to make full use of the accelerator pedal and steering wheel in an effort to run over and exterminate the peice of filth that is breathing my air..I would not be so crass as to allow myself to become close enough to the milling throng of the starving to give one of them the chance to steal my Noctilux lens (platinum plated, of course). So unless you can afford a Rolls (or a citroen in the case of our frogy friend) and a man to drive it. I suggest you stick to your own middle class neighborhoods where you belong and leave the rest of the world to the trully wealthy who deserve it...

-- Mahatma Cane Jeeves. (mcanejeeves@hotmail.com), December 06, 2001.

Why not? Seems like a great lens and India is a great country.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 06, 2001.

Tony, all this is getting very far away these days from the Leica Forum's style up to even as recently as a month ago.

Please delete this thread in its entirety. Zacharie has the information she needs.

Mea Culpa, for having introduced (or at least having responded to) a certain style of comment.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), December 06, 2001.

I'll just add one thing - most people around the world, let alone in India, have no idea of the difference between a Nikon and a Leica, or a Noctilux and a yellow plastic disposable camera. So take whatever you want to take. I've never had the slightest trouble with my cameras over there and I always look forward to going.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 06, 2001.

Boy did this thread get out of hand.....I guess you have to be careful ANYWHERE with a $4,000.00 camera hanging around your neck to be sure! I suspect that the participants of this thread might never have been robbed judging from their answers....I've been...I was raised in NYC and it's not a matter of if in NYC... but when. There are positive and negative people everywhere in the world but in a far away land it's wise to be doubly careful.This has nothing to do with being rich or poor....India has the largest middle class population in the world....but also much staggering poverty. Also... it's been quantified that if the Great U.S. of A. stopped purchasing cosmetics and perfumes ...the money thus gained would effectivly stop world hunger as well as providing the so called uneducated peoples of the world with a good education too....believe it or not!

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 06, 2001.

Thanks, Rob. That is exactly what I should have said in the first place, instead of being elliptical.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), December 06, 2001.