We have had dairy goats for only 1 1/2 years now, so we would appreciate your advice. Would you breed a 6 1/2 month old, 45# doe? She seems awfully small to us. Thanks for the help.

-- Jane in Wisconsin (autumnwindfarm@yahoo.com), December 01, 2001

Answers

NO,NO,NO! She should be at least 100 pounds and a year old before even putting the buck in. I'm a sheep person and this is the same with the sheep. Breeding one that young and small is asking for a disaster. Been there, done that!. I know she can come into heat that yung, but she is not done growing herself. Read the previous post and you will see info on this.

-- Kate henderson (kate@sheepyvalley.com), December 01, 2001.

Absolutley too small too breed,if you are talking dairy breeds..they need to be atleast 80-85# and around8-9mos. old to breed.Breeding at 6ms. puts kidding at under 1yr.(i have had an occational accident that kidded at 12 ms.and had to pull kid,stunted growth of doe,and doe was too immature to care about kid.)I suppose some may not have problems..but as choice and not accident..NO!! Good luck..love those goats!!:)

-- Michelle (davmic25@hotmail.com), December 01, 2001.

Jane 45# is way to small. You would have to breed her to a young buck anyway, certainly she couldn't even hold up a full grown buck. The small single kid that you will get and very tiny udder with not enough body to produce milk to fill it, and if she does she will be a walking skeleton, isn't worth it. For now when you are new, and don't know alot about your bloodlines, breed them to kid the year they are turning 2. Then once you have some experience under your belt (especially with delivery), you can breed the occasional doe early and see what you get. Watch very carefully what other folks with your breed are doing, visit websites and shows, look at all the yearlings. Wouldn't be any yearlings if we all bred our does at 6, 8 or 9 months! They would all be milkers. But early is 8 or 9 months old, and most 9 month old well grown kids should be nearing 100 pounds! Unless your doe is a very refined dairy LaMancha or Oberhaslie, your doe should already weigh 60 pounds plus her birth weight. 6 months 68 pounds, 7 months 78 pounds etc. and so you are already dealing in a doe who is too small for her age. You want to breed does who are in perfect condition, and your doe is not. I would also cut your doeling some slack if she was from a high multiple. French Kiss here at the house is just now 100 pounds (won't be bred till next September to kid at 2 years old) and she is a Feburary 2001 kid, so she is nearly 10 months old, small for my herd, but not small for a quad kid. Even though I make very good money doing outside breedings for folks I simply would not breed this doe for you if your brought her to me, the gal down the road will, but not me. I do not want to be at your farm pulling kids next May! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 01, 2001.

We are currently milking three goats, so we will breed those, but leave little Eleanor (our 45#er) alone and see about it next year. Thanks for advice...I knew you could help us. Jane and Fam

-- Jane in Wisconsin (autumnwindfarm@yahoo.com), December 01, 2001.

There is no way i would recommend breeding a doe that small and young. You might get some meat goat breeder to say otherwise, however, as Vicki said, they are sorry later and always hollering for help because their doe is experincing kidding problems. Has this goat been treated for cocci by chance? Wait until they are at least 85#'s or 14 months old, it varies, some recommend breeding at 75#'s. i like to wait untilk they are over 100.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), December 01, 2001.

Live and Learn. Rather than start a new post, I'll ask another question or two, and hope for more responses. We got a "rent a buck" today. He was free for the using. He is a very big nubian. We have alpines. The 4 1/2 year and 2 1/2 year olds are over 100#, and have both had kids with no problems. But the 1 3/4 year old is only 70#. However, we breed her last year (we realize now from the posts that it was stupid, but we were told it would be just FINE.) Thankfully it was-she had one buck, no kidding problems. So here are the questions: Should we breed this big nubian buck to our average size alpines? Do we breed the almost 2 year old who is only 70#, considering she did fine last year? Why are our two younger goats so small? (Is it obvious...not enough food?) The 45#er is housed with a wether the same age as she is. Does that mean anything as far as feeding goes. Thanks for the help!! Jane and Fam

-- Jane in Wisconsin (autumnwindfarm@yahoo.com), December 01, 2001.

Just read the previous post from the pastor. Sorry I missed it before. Does answer some of our questions. Look forward to hearing from you all again. Jane and Fam

-- Jane in Wisconsin (autumnwindfarm@yahoo.com), December 01, 2001.

I'd use your average sized alpine buck, howevever, how big is he? Our Alpine bucks are big, over 250#. I'd breed to the smaller of the 2, however, it may be the bucks might have genetics for size, however may have been stunted by either nutrition or cocci and the big genes may pop out. Guess this piggy backs on your question about why your does are so small, it may be nutrition, in which case they may not get too much bigger, but TLC will definately help. have they been treated for cocci?

I'd maybe hold off on breeding if theya ren't too old, might give the 70#er a chance to catch up.

What are you feeding them? that is a factor as well, oh and wormers too. hope this helps.

Berncie

ive and Learn. Rather than start a new post, I'll ask another question or two, and hope for more responses. We got a "rent a buck" today. He was free for the using. He is a very big nubian. We have alpines. The 4 1/2 year and 2 1/2 year olds are over 100#, and have both had kids with no problems. But the 1 3/4 year old is only 70#. However, we breed her last year (we realize now from the posts that it was stupid, but we were told it would be just FINE.) Thankfully it was-she had one buck, no kidding problems. So here are the questions: Should we breed this big nubian buck to our average size alpines? Do we breed the almost 2 year old who is only 70#, considering she did fine last year? Why are our two younger goats so small? (Is it obvious...not enough food?) The 45#er is housed with a wether the same age as she is. Does that mean anything as far as feeding goes. Thanks for the help!! Jane and Fam

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), December 01, 2001.

Hi! It will be tough raising a doeling with a wether. She needs protein to grow and without ammonium chloride in the grain the wether is assuredly going to get Urinary Calculi. Does that age here would be eating nearly 2 pounds of grain each day plus all the hay they want and browsing through the woods. With alfalfa hay you wouldn't need as much grain but we can't keep it here. I also am stickler for keeping them wormed. A good worming with something broad specturm like Valbazen you first freeze will kill those worms and eggs as they hit the ground, lock them out of the barns for about 12 hours so they aren't just pooping them into the bedding, where they will overwinter. Your wether doesn't need much grain, and also maybe hogging hers so she isn't growing.

I would choose the Nubian buck (what a surprise, Bernice :) especially if you are going to keep these animals kids as family milkers. The hybrid vigor you get with this kind of an outcross will help you. Cross kids are rarely ill, grow strong and robust, making them excellent milkers and alot more meat on the wethers. So will raising them from birth yourself. You won't have to guess if they have had lots of diarrhea from cocci and worms as the reason they are stunted, and if it is their dams carrying this small gene, you can nip that in the bud. Nubians also usually give you long small kids, that are easily birthed. No sense in not breeding the little milker as she has already been stunted and already kidded before. Worm them good before you breed them, including the buck. If you are going to change up your feeding program, do it slowly. The biggest mistakes folks make with their goats, is not enough hay, not good enough hay, and not keeping loose minerals in front of them always! Keep the hay, grain and minerals away from everything except the goats nose. If you have goat feet, baby goats and nannyberries in the hay, grain or minerals than you are just growing parasites, cocci and worms. If you are throwing your hay on the ground, I can guarantee you that your goats aren't eating it!

Now, to tie this in to the other questions. The older two Alpines, you have any history on them as to what age they first kidded at? Perhaps you have your answer in front of you with these girls. The older does kidded at a much older age than the little one did, so they had time to grow much larger bodies, with the 1 and 3/4 year old doe she was to buzy growing udder and kids to grow. She will mature and widen but lengthen and grow taller, is about overwith.

Everyone looks back on their first years of goating and shakes their heads! I am so surprised my girls lived through it, I used to tarp all the openings to the barn shut to keep them warm!! I do not to this day know why they all didn't die from pnemonia!

I agree with Bernice on using a Alpine buck, but only if there is a resale value of the kids for you. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 02, 2001.

I have had does that were bred young, as early as 5 months, that when fed well (grain, seperate from the adult herd), went on to attain full size and to milk well. But if this doe is 6 1/2 months old and only 45 lbs, she has some other problems to resolve first. She should weigh more like 65-75 lbs. Could she have worms, or has she has coccidiosis, resulting in a 'potbellied look' ? I routinely breed my doelings at 6 months and older depending on their weight. I used to breed at 70 lbs, now I like to wait til they are 90 lbs and up on the weigh tape. You have to feed them well if you breed them early, giving them good alfalfa hay and grain, and don't let the bossy does deprive them. I like to put the young pregnant does in their own pen. I have not had any birthing problems, mine almost always have twins and have no problems. Some are the best mothers we have seen, others need a little coaching until they get the idea.

On breeding the small Alpine 1 1/2 year old to a Nubian. No, I wouldn't do that! If she is small from being bred early, she doesn't have to stay that way- she will keep growing if she is given proper nutrition and not taxed too heavily- until she is three to four years old. How is her body condition? Is she thin? Could she have worms? I would get her in good condition first, give her a break from milking and breeding and breed her as late in the season as I could. If she kidded fine the first time, bred to a Swiss breed buck, I wouldn't worry about it this time. I have not outcrossed to Nubians before, because airplane eared kids are hard to sell. Nubian breeders want Nubians and Swiss breeders want Swiss type kids. None of my does have kidded with half nubian kids, but I did assist once with a small Saanen doe that had been bred to a Nubian, and she has a very difficult time. The Nubian kid's head was large and very hard to get out. When she finally did have him, he was so bruised that he cried whenever we touched him. It could have something to do with his being a single buck kid though, the worst for any small doe.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 03, 2001.