Hi Leica-philes,

I appreciate the constructive criticism which a lot of my fellow photographers have provided to me. Unfortunately, I do feel like around here that fellow photographers simply criticize but hardly provide any direction on how to improve. Instead, I get directed to getting photography classes which isn't what I have any interest in or time for. After all, I have a day job which I need to have in order to maintain the bills.

First of all, I do not plan to be a professional photographer. I prefer to remain a photographer who is an artist and archaelogist at the same time. I shoot for clients (just completed a portfolio for Eric and Erica Pezold), myself (engagement photographs), and my artistic integrity (my photoessay projects on the Church and the garbage of Philadelphia, both of which are occupying at present).

Second of all, I photograph subjects which may seem mundane but that's a result of my philosophy. I photograph because I want to document my own persona life and to keep a record of how I live rather than having to write it down. Shooting Leica is a challenge which presents itself to me and I am definitely appreciative of those who don't try to tear every photograph down instead. I appreciate to think photography from a more practical stance that it is a way of capturing the decisive moment like the way an archaeologist digs up artifacts. I don't try to make arched or daintily pretty pictures. I really don't care to create fake or over-posed/poseur photos. I would rather just pick up the camera by instinct and adjust the manual settings just before shooting the picture.

Thirdly, for me photography is a religious and personal experience like a moment of revelation. I tend to have this connection with the opposite end of the spectrum which capture the spiritual interplay between light and shadow which others have not experienced before. That is the force behind my decisionmaking process.

Fourthly, some don't like the fact that I tend to be repetitious in my subject matter. Sorry but, can we lodge those same accusations to some of my favorite photogs Atget and Muybridge? They shots subjects from different angles like a scientist/artist. For example, I enjoy the final waterlilies series/cathedral (English ones) series from Monet's ending period because one of the goals in photography is to shoot the same subjects in various lighting conditions. That I enjoy and whether you wish to see that like the way I do, it just is.

Here are my rules of Leica photography as straightforward as I can express those:

1) Don't use flash as much as you can unless the low light settings won't permit you to shoot faster than 1/30 w/ a 50mm lens (or equivalent). Flash is a crutch and for me, is like cheating. After all, if Leica photography is meant to duplicate what is in real life, why add false light to make the semblance antithetical to what is photojournalistic style photography.

2) Learn to shoot with various speeds of film. For portrait, use lower speed film unless you're going to be shooting for a more candid and raw look. Use Kodak film for bright colors in emphasis and Fuji film for dark colors in highlights.

3) Tripod shots as least as possible. If the R or M camera was designed to be a handheld device then shoot it as such.

4) Shoot lot of pictures of the same subjects from various angles and distances. Use print rather than slide film so that you don't have to worry about bracketing etc. etc. Think about being selective and capturing the right emotion which you wish to duplicate but don't force any posed emotions in the subjects.

5) Even if the lighting isn't all that great, shoot photograph where the lighting is different and never flattering to the subjects. Just make sure that you can shoot the camera with a steady hand at that particular shutter speed.

6) I sometimes use the rules of thirds to frame my composition. After all, if HCB used only one lens to shoot everything, it's a matter of how close you can get to your subject, etc. etc.

7) Don't shoot the subject the same way which others have shot it before. Use wierd lighting and wacky perspective. Just be yourself.

8) Don't worry if others discourage you from shooting pictures. Continue practicing and know that years of practice and viewing can help you throughout your photog career.

All the same, because of my somewhat problematic 20/200 eyesight and difficulties of shooting the R4, I will continue to practice and get used to focusing the lens until I get a split screen.

By the way, I do not worship Leica cameras in the way that others stereotype me as having. I don't collect them onto a shelf where I won't be using them. If I don't use it, I trade the stuff in or give it to my princess. To be honest, I do enjoy talking on this forum about Leicas and have a good time shooting (I shoot like 2-7 rolls/week) and practicing and working on my photo essays and photographic diary.

Okay, sorry folks, but I will admit that my favorite camera of all time happens to be the Nikon F Photomic 1967-1972 design. The camera is the camera that I feel like Leica should have built--lightweight (which the Leicaflex/SL/SL2), anti-elitist (Leica has this aura of inaccessibility which I don't care about), affordable (which Leicaflex/R camera aren't), and a large selection of lens which aren't too overly exorbitantly priced either. Plus the weight and split screen and bright viewfinder (a little dimmer than the Leicaflex SL) are major pluses for the Nikon F camera. I just like its feel too esp. relative to any of the Pentax cameras I've handled. Just my personal preference. So basically I will probably drop the Leica R4 to shoot Xmas photos and work on using the Nikon F I have and probably will have the FM and Leica Z2X (for which I got rid of the Leica Mini) as backups. After all, I will continue to practice the Leica R4 in the meantime regardless of what people here think.

I am happy to have the photo criticism indeed but I don't feel like people here are interested in providing advice to a young and beginning photographer about improving the shots. Sure you could send me off to a packing house but I'm going to be sticking to my "guns" and continue using the Nikons and Leicas which I enjoying taking my photographic diary of my daily existence, mundane as it may seem. After all, wasn't Flaubert's novel Madame Bovary because of its boring and mundane subject matter? It's only because of immaculate concern for detail which concerns me.

By the way, a word of advice, I do have a Nikon Photography LUSENET group which would be nice if people were interested in having a forum. Perhaps I would be better off being more cognizant in relaxing with the company of photogs who aren't arrogant about whether they collect Leica cameras, diss others about artistic intent with total bombast, or attending those who don't have the audacity to post their resume in the guise of photographic advice.

Also, even if I were an awful photog, I won't give up photography or the Leicas. I think of shooting pictures just like breathing, as natural and an escape from reality most of the time :) If I don't feel like I can handle the R4 then I will give it to my princess as a birthday present and stick to my Nikon Ftn instead.

Leica-fully (soberly), Alfie :)

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001

Answers

Alfie,

well-spoken, but I believe your audience here is off discussing whether or not they should remove the plastic bottom cover and CE stickers on their new trophy Leica.

you've got it nailed. perhaps the others will follow your lead.

-- daniel taylor (lightsmythe@agalis.net), December 04, 2001.

I'm sorry, but what exactly is the question?

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 04, 2001.

Wow, Alfie you rock! however, some editing and proof reading would make me less dizzy.

-- Hugh Jass (Cjass@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

i think you dismiss photo classes too quickly. in philadelphia, where you are, there are several very low cost options that meet at night (the u.c. arts league comes to mind) -- which not just puts you in proximity to other shooters, but gives you the impetus to do things you might not ordinarily do (assignments like "introduce yourself to 36 people on the street and ask each one of them if you can take their photo" i think prove invaluable, though they're not the type of assignments one gives onesself) and usually hooks you up with a very nice darkroom.

kyle

-- kyle cassidy (cassidy@netaxs.com), December 04, 2001.

To all aspiring photographers: read Alfie's "philosophy", then do exactly the opposite. His notion of photography is utter bollocks. He's throwing around a lot of big words (badly) and half-baked ideas to justify what are truly bad photos. I might add that he's doing this on his employer's time.

-- Gulley Jimson (gulleyjimson@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

Alfie, Don't worry so much about equipment and philosophy - just get out and shoot. Nikons are fine:

-- Peter Mackay (pm@novonordisk.com), December 04, 2001.

[post removed for slamming a person]

-- Carson Reynolds (CJR@hbs.edu), December 04, 2001.

Kyle, you're right, the darkroom access alone is well worth the price of admission. Alfie, you probably don't care about this aspect anymore, but others may be interested: in my first photo class, the ratio of women to men was 8 to 1!

-- John Fleetwood (johnfleetwood@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

What a mind-numblingly, close-minded "philosophy" on photography. I don't even know where to begin in my criticism of your post. The joke has worn thin--time to shut down the party and send everyone home.

-- Richard Le (rvle@yahoo.com), December 04, 2001.

If this this philosophy, then the Taliban is a valid political entity.

-- Eve Hessler (Evehessler@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

Sorry -- my post should read: "If this is philosophy then the Taliban is a valid political entity."

-- Eve Hessler (Evehessler@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

Please, deliver me from this drivel!

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), December 04, 2001.

WANG, STOP IT!!! YOU'RE P***ING PEOPLE OFF. TONY WORKED DAMN HARD TO GET THIS GOING AND YOU'RE SPOILING IT FOR EVERYONE. YOUR A COMPULSIVE-0BSESSIVE AND I THINK YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP AND NOT JUST WITH THE CAMERA.

-- Billy (Quartermaster43@newtalk.uk), December 04, 2001.

Alfie Everyone has his/her own approach to photography, stick to your own conviction.

As for how to improve, I suggest read some good books on photography composition, for example famous Canadian photographer Freeman Patterson: Photographing The World Around You, Photography for the Joy of It, etc

Study the work of photography masters.

Shoot and shoot,

Critize your photograph yourself, you are your best critique

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), December 04, 2001.

Alfie, I forgot to add, there is a forum dedicated to philosopy of Photography

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Philosophy%20of% 20Photography

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), December 04, 2001.

Alfie,

When I was 24, fresh out of college, I also had ALL THE ANSWERS to any question. College had taught me everything and I was appalled at the stupidity of "older people" who had not figured out how things really work. Such is the folly of youth.

As time passed, I began to see that other, older people were every bit as smart as myself, and frequently even smarter, AND that the older folks were often right. They had already lived thru this age and the result of their experience was well worth heeding. Now that I am into my sixth decade of life, I wonder how anyone could be so foolish as to ignore the advice of "those with experience". Such is the folly of age.

Regardless of your chosen method, the first rule for improvement is "to thine own self be true". You must recognize your limitations in any area if you are to grow beyond them. Self-delusionment and self-justification are proven methods for continued stagnation and lack of growth. Best wishes in your life, marriage, and photography. LB

-- Luther Berry (lberrytx@aol.com), December 04, 2001.

What Luther said! I have only half of LBs life experiance, in terms of years, but have had the good fortune to have been taught (t)his lesson early enough to try and apply it.

-- Brooks (Bvonarx@home.com), December 04, 2001.

You know, this may turn some good after all. daniel taylor is a pretty philosophical guy with some life experience and he sees eye-to-eye with you Alfie. Why not get with him off-line and establish a mentoring relationship. Alfie, daniel might realize some personal benefits from your crystalized phylosophical teachings, as you might from his.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), December 04, 2001.

I don't like the idea of ganging up on somebody even if they are a bit of a contravercialist (spelling?).

But, I do agree with the above comment (unto thine own self...) - not easy in practise though (art is long but life is short). When I first took photography seriously (not so very long ago in my case) I went to have a chat with John Robert Young (of Leica R4 advert fame and whose pictures appear in a number of Leica connections) I explained to him that I felt flash was cheating etc etc and he simply said that the only thing that mattered was the resulting image and that I should forget about myself and everything else. It seems terribly trite but it's certainly good advice. Put another way, photography's all cheating, it's just that some people are better at it than others :-*

BTW I too value this forum very much

-- Steve Jones (stephenjjones@btopenworld.com), December 04, 2001.

Wel Alfie you seem to be doing what you want in photography and that´s the rigth thing, but I belive you already know it.

I don´t know if you are a Leica M user or R user, I mention this because of you limited 1/30 as low speed before using some flash; well if you are using a reflex system you can be rigth, but if an M is in your bag try longer exposures; for example go to the movies and try to shoot people during film proyection, you may need f/2 and 1 full second, you´ll discover is not so hard, and people in cinemas doesn´t move much, well this can be just an excercise.

About going to some school to learn photography; I can recomend some workshop at ICP in N.Y.; Charles Habbord or Joan Liftin can make a useful week to you discovering your way of documenting your life as a photographer.

Well Alfie, hope my humble recomendation help in any way.

Cheers

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

Sorry, but anytime I see a set of rules like this, from someone who is as young as Alfie, I'm afraid my response is "SHUT UP AND LISTEN FOR A CHANGE". There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum who have years of experience with Leica's and photography and maybe - just maybe Alfie you should listen a little more rather than spouting all the drivel you've learned in the past - what 25 years of living. Sorry, but I don't take everything H.C.B. (for example) says for granted - I'm sure not going to give a wit about your rules. Please Alfie, a little less drivel and a bit more forethought and editing in your posts..........

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 04, 2001.

who said I suscribed to what Alfie has to say? I feel he has the right to say what his heart tells him to, and that this forum should be more selective in the posts they read. and less critical too, based on some of the threads floating around here that are neither philosophical or of great import.

I also don't place restrictions on where I look for wisdom and knowledge, or possible mentoring. the crowd has turned ugly, as they say, and I see no need to do so.

-- daniel taylor (lightsmythe@agalis.net), December 04, 2001.

Alfie, just keep doing what you're doing. Remember two things from William Blake:

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." and

"Exhuberance is beauty."

If nothing else, your grandchildren will appreciate the record the have of their grandfather as a young man.

-- Steven Hupp (shupp@chicagobotanic.org), December 04, 2001.

This has to be a put on. If not, it's sad.

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), December 04, 2001.

Alfie,
You asked for some opinions and advice, so here is mine:
It is obvious that you have a deep love for photography, so everybody should respect your efforts even if your photos are obviously not your best so far.
Talent is an issue; there is some inside all of us, more or less. Still, most people tend to use their talent in small percentages because they don’t try enough (or because they don’t read enough). Reading is a vital thing usually underestimated by the majority of photographers.
Ok, maybe you don’t have the time –or the mood- to start reading articles and books, but I think you should browse the Internet for good photos and study why they are better than yours. Don’t just stair to a photo, imagine that the photographer was you. Try to put yourself behind the scene, be in the mood of the surroundings, feel the smell of the picture, listen to the sounds of it. Then think what you would have done instead? What your version of the photo would be like? Why it would be inferior to this one? Which are the elements that you admire in this one and you miss in yours? Why you would lose the feeling of the scene?
All this may sound difficult or useless, believe me, it is not! I have done it thousands of times and I have spent much more time reading and learning than shooting, every time I become a little better and after many years I believe I am not a bad photographer any more.
Start with the essentials: A photo is good ONLY when it is technically decent! Don’t break the rules. Rules can only be broken from photographers that have reached a high level of competency. For example: Many photographers claim that their photos are artistically blurred because they want to show the feeling of the moment and put life in them. Garbage! They just cannot do any better, or they do it because their sharp photos are boring.
Be very demanding with your developing and printing. It is MOST important! I know many decent photographers that will never deliver a good photo only because they do not have the patience to print their photos as they should.
Try slide films. I know you don’t especially like them but they will give you great experience for two reasons: You will need to be more accurate in metering and you will see your merciless results thus making you want to try even more.
You love your princess (something very logical as she is gorgeous!) so let her be your model.
Don’t shoot too many indoors. They are more difficult, not because of the light but because of the surroundings that give a snapshot feeling.
Finally, don’t let yourself be disappointed from some hard critique. You love photography, and photography needs people like you.
If you want to check my web site, go to
http://www.jordan.gr
I don’t think that my style of photography will be exactly of your taste, but maybe some photos will give you something useful.
Try hard!
Kisses,
Jordan.


-- Jordan Koussis (jordan@koussis.com), December 04, 2001.

I to am a Philly Leica M user with a philosphy, to wit: 1. Shoot what you want, when you want, how you want. 2. Don't forget to remove lens cap (I will remember, I will remember, I will remember!).

Right now, I'm working on my first book, to be called "Crap Photography."

-- Leicaddict (leicaddict@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah. In my view, the most useful function of any kind of "artistic philosophy" is to provide entertaining conversation when you're a little tanked at gallery or opening.

The main difference I've found between good photographers and mediocre photographers is their level of complacency with their own work. The good ones are usually surprised that other people are so happy with the crap they produce; the mediocre ones are upset that people don't appreciate their work as much as they should. Well, the good ones also tend to spend a lot more time taking photos.

Adherence to rules, hours spent studying, philosophical approach--leave that crap to the critics. I think Alfie has the right idea in just continuing to take photos because that's what he loves to do. When he becomes less complacent with the results, he'll figure out ways to make the photos better. . .

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 04, 2001.

Jordan,

Please allow me to take issue with your statements: "A photo is good ONLY when it is technically decent! Don’t break the rules. Rules can only be broken from photographers that have reached a high level of competency."

I agree, generally in order to break the rules it helps if you know the rules but "...a photo is good ONLY when it is technically decent!" - come on, this is a ridiculous generalisation and totally unfounded. Are you saying a photo only has merit if it is perfectly exposed, focused, and composed? Many of the worlds greatest photographic moments would be banished under your dictatorial rules!

Next: "Many photographers claim that their photos are artistically blurred because they want to show the feeling of the moment and put life in them. Garbage! They just cannot do any better..." - another sweeping generalisation! If you know anything about photography you must recognise the importance (in certain cases) of representing movement and 'life' by deliberate use of a slow shutter speed. Go and have a look at some of Lartigues' photographs!

Many people are split as to Alfies contribution to this forum. I have been critical in the past but let's show Alfie some respect. One thing is certain; his posts at least attract more constructive argument than most, this forum would be a duller place without him.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 04, 2001.

"who said I suscribed to what Alfie has to say?" I believe you did: "well-spoken … you've got it nailed."

"the crowd has turned ugly, as they say, and I see no need to do so." Too late:

"…and less critical too, based on some of the threads floating around here that are neither philosophical or of great import." and "but I believe your audience here is off discussing whether or not they should remove the plastic bottom cover and CE stickers on their new trophy Leica." -- The raw, insulting, implication is that the contributors here are so wrapped up in trivial Leica obsession that we cannot offer cogent replies to Aflie’s post, which we have. In fact, Alfie has been treated with remarkable consideration when contrasted with other on-line communities, photo.net, for example.

This is the Leica equipment forum, we talk about Leica stuff here, and we like to do that, so we do. There is an abundance of excellent Leica related resources here for those interested in that kind of thing.

BTW Alfie, I (and others) offered you several suggestions on how to improve your images, contrary to your assertion that all anyone suggested was a photo class. If you don’t like the responses you get here, why do you continue to post these tirades?

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), December 04, 2001.

It sounds as though this guy will never take advice (constructive or mean) ... Either you're with him or you're just clueless and do not understand art (or artists). Yes, history is littered with artistic geniuses who were misunderstood ... but, Alfie, it's littered with fools with strong convictions as well ... Look at your pictures, man! They're bad ... they're awful and painful. Do you think people look at them and derive pleasure? Or insights into life? Or sight? Or just insights into your lack of any sort of knowledge of photography or art (no matter how many big names you drop or how many philosophies you mention)? If you want to improve, take a course, man! Or for God's sake, read a decent introductory book on photography! Snap out of it and rejoin the society of human beings! There are things you can learn from people who know more than you ...

-- DH (Dhil@yahoo.com), December 04, 2001.

Dan,

Alfie articulated his thoughts. he put them out there. he nailed his convictions. I don't know if Alfie is real or a virtual traveler, jogging through Leicaspace. the raw, insulting, implication of my posting was that we all have different thresholds of what is valuable and what is merely noise. I made mention that we are all capable of trivial contributions, such as pondering the removal the CE stickers.

I am afraid Alfie's posting of his elephant abstraction has severely weakened my defense of him.

-- daniel taylor (lightsmythe@agalis.net), December 04, 2001.

Giles,
I am afraid that my English is worse than I thought, OR, you don't read carefully.
1) I said: ...Many photographers claim that their photos are artistically blurred.....
MANY, not all! And of course not top photographers like Lartigue!
2) A photo is good ONLY when it is technically decent. If I am lucky enough to get a picture of a very important moment and happen to be the only photographer that captured it, but the photo is not very well exposed and not very sharp, then I still will have in my hands a very important picture. I will probably earn a lot of money selling it to the newspapers too. But the photo itself will still be a BAD photo.
More kisses,
Jordan.


-- Jordan Koussis (jordan@koussis.com), December 04, 2001.

I offer my apology to Daniel Taylor. My unkind remarks were not appropriate.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), December 04, 2001.

Actually, the main reason why I don't take a photo class is that I don't have a good schedule on weekdays or weekends (considering that I have to prepare for my marriage) and I want to use LUSENET Leica board as my "internet classroom" :)

Alfie

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.

"The main difference I've found between good photographers and mediocre photographers is their level of complacency with their own work."

I've always gotten my best pictures when I'm running scared - certain that I've missed all the moments - terrified that none of my pix is going to reflect the reality I'm seeing - shooting and shooting more to make up for my incompetence. As soon as I start thinking the picture is "in the bag" things really DO go to hell.

I'd love to hear "Eve's" commentary on that - as she has literally been in the trenches recently.

Alfie - beware complacency! Assume you've shot nothing but s**t so far, and keep looking for the better picture.

"You're only as good as your last picture." - numerous anonymous picture editors amd art directors.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), December 04, 2001.

This thread is hilarious. It is amazing how enthralled in this B**l Sh** we can get. I agree with Andy above, I have shot nothing but s**t so far .. and if I truly am only as good as my last picture I have to wonder. Ironically I was picking up the camera and accidentally pressed the shutter button while it was pointed at my crotch… weird coincidence. (If this comment seems scattered and out there that is intentional)

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), December 04, 2001.

"...because of my somewhat problematic 20/200 eyesight..."

Well, as I suspected... Alfie is working at a severe disadvantage. 20/ 200 is considered legally blind in most states.

-- john costo (mahler@lvcm.com), December 04, 2001.

alfie,

come clean: you're really another persona of that master photo-forum satirist Triblett Lungre-Thurd?

aren't you?

-- aric blair (aricblair101@earthlink.net), December 04, 2001.

Please don't invite that idiot (triblett) here. You think this forum has problems now, with Alfie? You haven't seen anything....

-- john costo (mahler@lvcm.com), December 04, 2001.

You are a good man, Alfie Wang.

:-)

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), December 04, 2001.

I enjoy Trib's participation in online forums. He's witty, funny, knows a lot about photography, and understands the word succinct.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), December 04, 2001.

Actually, Trib is a great guy, and you'll find his antics in internet forums extremely entertaining once you realize that he's just being funny!

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), December 04, 2001.

Maybe what Alfie needs is some dialogue with noted Leica/photo critics as Msxmanic and Anthony Polson. Now THAT would be interesting.

-- RP Johnson (RPJohnson2@mindspring.com), December 04, 2001.

Alfie, ICP in New York has weekend and night classes throughout the year. They offer all levels of photography instruction and the facilities are excellent. I teach a class there and can vouch for the quality of the instuctors. You need to lose the Leica manifesto and the photo history name dropping if you intend to learn anything, from anyone, about making good pictures.

Check it out- ICP

-- Steve Wiley (wiley@accesshub.net), December 04, 2001.

Alfie,

Some of your "rules" seem to be unnecessary restrictions to place on oneself, especially as a beginner; some others I find confusing.

1) "Don't use flash as much as you can unless ..."

Why? It's certainly a good idea to develop a skill for taking "available light" pictures but flash has its place and is also a skill worth developing. You will miss opportunities by contrainning yourself in this way.

2) "Learn to shoot with various speeds of film ... Use Kodak film for bright colors in emphasis and Fuji film for dark colors in highlights."

Okay, try different speeds by all means, but I'm not sure where you got your ideas about Kodak vs. Fuji.

3) "Tripod shots as least as possible ..."

This is plain silly, Alfie. I know some Leica M users say they dislike using tripods but they usually admit that it's their personal preference and it's mostly to do with convenience. It's different with an SLR. In addition to low light situations, a tripod or shoulder stock is virtually essential with long lenses, say over 180mm, to get good quality results.

4) "Shoot lot of pictures of the same subjects from various angles and distances. Use print rather than slide film so that you don't have to worry about bracketing etc. etc."

What is the connection between the first point and the second point? It's true that bracketing is less important for prints than slides but making that a "philosophical rule" amounts to closing off an important branch of 35mm photography just for the sake of convenience.

5) "Even if the lighting isn't all that great, shoot photograph where the lighting is different and never flattering to the subjects ..."

I feel sorry for your models! The creative and constructive use of light is part of the photographer's art and is one of the criteria that distinguishes the good from the mediocre.

6) "I sometimes use the rules of thirds to frame my composition. After all, if HCB used only one lens to shoot everything, it's a matter of how close you can get to your subject, etc. etc."

You've lost me on this "rule". I cannot see any logic in what you're saying here.

Alfie, you're heading up a blind alley, IMHO. Tear up your existing "rule book" and read some good guidelines. If you don't have time to attend classes or search for good textbooks, look around on the web. For instance, have a look at "Lessons in Composition for the Amateur Photographer" at URL http://members.home.net/matthew- cotton/Composition/pg1.html

Regards,

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), December 05, 2001.

Man....is the bullshit flying here in spades today! People talking like they have a pipeline to the photographic truth of the universe....Like REALLY!!!!!...How hard is it to set exposure,depth of field,compose etc????...I mean....do you really have to go to school for that? This ain't classical musical composition or brain surgury here! This(photo)technical shit is relativly easy compared to some other art forms. The internal photographic vision of course is another matter entirely. I think it really adds up to this... after you have all the cameras and len's... and all the tricks down pat...and all the darkroom stuff together...the fork in the road appears....you either stagnate or quit or continue onward to find and manifest your own personal vision. And by the way... I know of more than one college educated photographer that claims that the education ruined them....took all the beauty and love out the photographic experience and smashed it...one person said they wished they never went...I could tell they were longing for the real feeling again....

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 05, 2001.

Any more questions? From: "Wang, Albert" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 10:30 am Subject: RE: [NikonMF] Re: Why Nikkor?

Why Nikkor? Easy:

Because Nikkor users aren't as arrogant as most Leica users :)

Alfie

-- Joe Brugger (joebrugger@news.oregonian.com), December 05, 2001.

Emile, regarding the person you know that is complaining about a college education which:

"took all the beauty and love out the photographic experience and smashed it...one person said they wished they never went...I could tell they were longing for the real feeling again...."

I really have to wonder if there is more to this feeling manifesting itself then "merely" the education. I think age has a lot to do with it. Before college (i.e. in our youth) people approach almost everything differently then when they have matured (often by the end of college or a bit later). I bet a lot of the "mystical past" feelings he/she (and others that think along the same lines) is having has a lot to do with age, and that it can't all be attributed to education (although i am sure some of it can be). Most people look fondly upon their youth and think life was great "back then" when i didn't have a care in the world and everything went smoothly. We remember the joys and forget the trials...

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), December 05, 2001.

Dear Matthew, It was interesting to me too. These people are in their late 20's,I dont think they appreaciated the college stuff very much even though they completed their degrees.It seems to me though that college education probably kills the passion by systemizing learning to a timetable and someone elses opinion.Quantity rules... and passion and quality/originality are put out the window for a term paper. Also...the mystical feeling...does it really change or do we close down to it through over-education of the mind as well as the instilled concept of right and wrong in relation to artistic creation as age descends. I think that the mystical feeling really IS the only reason I pick up a camera or play music amoung other things....this has absolutly nothing to do with time or personal age....this mystical feeling always lives permanantly and completely outside of time and normal human endeavor...it comes through as a gift in relation to my actions if taken with sensitivity and consciousness. Regards,

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 06, 2001.

Emile,

The point I was trying to make was that Alfie should at least learn the basics before setting "rules" for himself. It may have come across as bullshit to you but it wasn't meant to be.

Regards, Ray

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), December 06, 2001.

words fail me

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 06, 2001.

Dear Ray, Why should Alfie have to do anything? He might be given the freedom to be himself whatever that may be regardless of the opinions of others. Does it matter if he evolves photographically or not? Only he can answer that. He can only be where/what he is... like all of us. If he wants to be in a box full of the rules of others thats cool...if he wants to excell at those rules thats cool too...if he wants to do anything at all or not.... its all his personal choice. My calling it bullshit was not meant to be taken personally...sorry about that...it was just my way of putting forth a question of the value of ones own personal education and opinion in regards to the development of another.To teach another can be very tricky business...Obviously if he wants to excell in the "world of photography" he needs to heed your advice... but does he really want this or is he after something else...only he can answer that. Regards,

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 06, 2001.

Emile,

I didn't take your words personally. Alfie said, inter alia, "I am happy to have the photo criticism indeed but I don't feel like people here are interested in providing advice to a young and beginning photographer about improving the shots." That sounds to me like he does want to improve, if not excel, in photography. I therefore responded to his post, instead of veering off at a tangent.

Rob,

If words fail you, why post?

Regards, Ray

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), December 06, 2001.

Alfie, I am not going to critize you for expressing your ideas but will critize your ideas instead. Please get yourself into a b&w printing class immediately. People have day jobs so there are night classes for that reason. Once you have tried your best to print a really crappy negative you will begin to think how to take a perfect one. I personally believe good photographic technics begins in the darkroom. The darkroom is where the novice will learn to respect the basics such as contrast and tones. Now unplug the computer, buy a box of Multigrade, a good incident meter and register.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), December 06, 2001.

Emile, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Alfie go get his Master's degree in photography from Yale, only to take a basic photo class or workshop. Photography is a visual language. If you have something serious to say, you need to learn a few words. He said that he wanted this forum to be his online classroom. I'm sure everyone will agree that this isn't the right place to learn about the basics of the craft. I'll second ray's opinion about the darkroom, though. Photography is based on reciprocity and nowhere is it more evident than in the darkroom. Mystical feelings won't help you get a good print out of a negative that's three stops underexposed.

-- Steve Wiley (wiley@accesshub.net), December 07, 2001.

If Alphie wants more baggage to carry then by all means he or anyone else for that matter can pay the bucks for someone to give them their opinion of what a photograph should be and how they think he should do it. I think though that the development(no pun intended) and fixing(pun intended) of the photographic technique and SPIRIT of THE INDIVIDUAL comes about solely as the photographer shoots and develops and grows his own way thereby.. by himself... with or without a teacher. In reality the photographer teaches himself. All that money spent on a photo 101 class could be spent on an enlarger, paper,film, lens or good books on how to do it...I really think most classes are for the lazy or stupid who want to be spoon fed and/or to maybe socialize...And......Steve I think you have this ass backwards...The spirit drives the good photograph...technique is never the originator. It's VERY important to contact the feeling first then let the technique develop in response to the genuine impulse ....not to act out of greed and become a Adams or HCB clone or some other monster.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 09, 2001.

Emile, Were you somehow traumatized in a Photo 101 class? Why are you so anti-education? I can guarantee you that no student of mine has ever had their individual spirit or personal vision squelched in one of my classes. Remember that photography isn't all light and groovy feelings, it's also about math and chemistry, which some people are uncomfotable with. My goal as a teacher is to make technique become second nature, so the students learn to good pictures effortlessly. And yes there is socializing. It's a classroom of 10-15 people who want to learn about and discuss photography and their experiences with it. My students are busy people. They have careers and families. But every Saturday, they come to class and work for three hours so they can learn to be better photographers. That doesn't sound lazy to me.

-- Steve Wiley (wiley@accesshub.net), December 09, 2001.

No Steve, I wasn't tramatised by any photo 101 class!I never took one. And...I'm not against education as I have taught music professionally since the age of 16 in N.Y.C. to more recently college and adult level workshops. It's just my experience that most (but not all)college education etc.is just big business..... but occationally a good teacher shows up and the students can have a REAL experience there. But generally in a faculty/college situation the good teachers are few and far between and the mediocre/intellectual is king. Politics is the name of the day and usually the good people get run out or left high and dry by the system.There are exceptions of course but but again these are few and far between.Anyway ....it seems like you actually care about the people you instruct and give them something good to work on!I didn't though hear you mention artistry with the camera as related to the emotions....Is this part of your instruction too or is it just math and chemistry? Its been my experience that so called education is really only headucation...and this really doesn't take the person very far...and by far I mean... ALL THE WAY!!

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 09, 2001.

how'd I miss this'n? Usually, when someone's talkin' behind my back, well, my hackles stand up and I taste bile...

must be gettin' old... anyhow, thanks for the kind words,

you sissies...

me

p.s. to alfie... I like ya kid, say it with humor and you've really got something there.

-- looker (linhof6@hotmail.com), February 04, 2002.