I saw a small blurb on this at lunch time and it shook me to the core. I recalled hearing a few months ago about a young toddler having been raped in SA as well and I determined that I needed to check and see what I could find on this. I don't mean to upset you folks, but I think this is so repugnant that there needs to be a massive outcry made so this addressed. These people somehow have come to the idea that raping a baby will cure them of Aids, or prevent them from getting it. This is horrifying.....again, I am sorry for upsetting you, but this should not be ignored.

Baby Rape

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), December 05, 2001

Answers

I didn't want to, but I went to the site. It is horrible. What I cannot understand is why men all across the world get away with this type of behavior. If you murder someone with a gun, what do you get? Prison, and you can never own a gun again. Why are these men allowed to retain what they are using as weapons???

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 05, 2001.

This behavior is being promoted by tribal medicine men who claim that having sex with a virgin will cure aids. These people apparently have no idea of how aids is spread, so they listen to their shamans. I know people have a right to say what they want, but not when it involves toruturing little girls, and sentencing them to death from aids. These perveyors of lies must be stopped at all cost.

Information has to get out, but I wonder if it will do any good. Superstitions die hard everywhere, why would South Africa be any different?

Say a little prayer for these children who probably don't have long to live.

Talk to you later.

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), December 05, 2001.

Unfortunately, this is not isolated to the African culture. This is a very common occurance even in our society, and the motive is not a superstitious belief. The motive is self gratification, destruction of human life and a celebration of the basest of depravity.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), December 05, 2001.

I can't address the base depravity aspect, but as far as the superstition aspect, isn't it a bit strange that our far right thumpers, including our beloved president, do everything possible to prevent aids education, and to prevent the distribution of rubbers???

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 05, 2001.

Joe, how do you get to calling people far right thumpers?

I was always taught that politically you call people things relative to where you are on the political spectrum. In your case it must be the far left.

One other question. What great strides against AIDS were accomplshed in the 90's? Not much that I recall except the usual solution, throw money at it and hope it goes away.

We need to eliminate certain behaviors or this situation will NEVER get better, only worse. That is the solution, not government intervention, which as usual will only make things worse if that is possible.

Talk to you later.

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), December 05, 2001.

Left of center, Bob, but my friends mostly think I'm overly far right.

Are you not aware that Aids is now considered a "controlable", if not a curable, disease?

But not in most third world countries, because it's too expensive. Or the drug companies won't cut into their profits for the sake of a few hundred million Afrians.

I think, strangely enough, that the aids research would absolutely not have been as successful as it has been if it were not for the federal government, and all the grants to research. Not to mention all the universities and their staffs.

Government can be very bad, but not all government programs are bad.

How I "get to calling people far right thumpers" is by observing that MOST far right folks are thumpers. I know that it's a gross oversimplification, but what can I say?

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 06, 2001.

Yes, we certainly need to eliminate "certain behaviors". I suspect you're referring to too many people having too much fun with each other. I don't know how to change that, other than through education, and even that is getting cut by the thumper types.

Another of the "certain behaviors" which it still seems possible to change is to wear a glove when you're having all that fun. This behavior, while certainly riskier than abstinence, is much more likely to be practiced.

Even monogamy won't work, it the person you think you're being monogamous with, catches aids from his/her little "goof" when she/he makes a little "mistake".

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 06, 2001.

FWIW, the belief that sex with a virgin will cure venereal disease goes at least as far back at 1750 London, when there were cases of men raping children and infants in an attempt to cure themselves of the "French pox." There were even instances of brothel owners and destitute mothers *selling* children for this purpose. The men (and women -- virginal boys were also in demand) thought they could avoid the other common cure: drinking so much mercury that their saliva turned black.

-- Cash (Cash@andcarry.com), December 06, 2001.

Cash, I never knew that....actually I never knew that anyone could even begin to think this way. Scares the heck outta me. I highly doubt that these people use any condoms with their victims and what does that do? Just (potentially) insures an innocents destruction because the perp (potentially-as I know of too many cases where they had no choice) had no self control in the first place???

As for the use of 'protective" devices, it is a help but it sure seems funny to me that the most laughable method of birth control is now considered body armor.

I like Rebekah's idea.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), December 06, 2001.

Joe,

A bit of investigation on your part would find that the perps in this particular story are some of those who went through your classes. They dont work, and never worked. The president knows it and so do most Americans. Scream yourself hoarse, whip yourself up into a self rightous tizzy, do whatever helps you get by but the rest of us know better.

BTW, Take a look at this example of the kind of people we are dealing with and try to tell us with a straight face that these people have any idea what our instructors were talking about...

---

Flying Wizards Traumatize Zambians

Source: Panafrican News Agency
Published: January 29, 2001
Author: Cosmiverse Staff Writer

Over thirty naked people thought to be wizards "crash-landed" on rooftops of houses, institutions, and filling stations in Zambia last year, bewildering the population. The most recent incident happened on New Year's Eve when one of the wizards crash-landed in Kasanda, a mining township near the midlands central town of Kabwe.

The "wizard" sustained body and knee injuries from the impact that eventually proved fatal. The suspected wizard - believed to be in his 50s - reportedly fell on the roof of a house owned by Christopher Muwowo in the middle of the night, startling the sleeping residents of the home.

Muwowo, a minibus driver, was awakened along with other members of his family by a loud bang on the roof. The man's wife ran out of the house and was stunned to find a naked man kneeling on the doorstep. She yelled for her husband. Muwowo hurried to his wife and asked the man what he wanted at such a late hour. The man simply said "kuku", meaning please help. He was not able to speak after that until he was taken to the police station in Kasanda. "Cases of witches and wizards crash-landing are rare in Kabwe but very common in Lusaka," said one neighbor.

Two of the first people on the scene to see the wizard at Kasanda Police Station were Kabwe Mayor John Siamuzyulu and Central Province Chief Ryan Chitoba. Since the man was unable to speak, police could not establish his name, age, destination, or where he came from. The suspected wizard was later taken to the Department of Social Welfare to await transport to the Traditional Healers and Practitioners Association of Zambia or THAPAZ who had agreed to exorcise him.

Sadly, the wizard died before he was charged and police have appealed to the Zambian public to come forward and identify him. THAPAZ president, "Dr" Rodwell Vongo is the head of a group of 40,000 local traditional herbalists. He stated in an interview with PANA that the Kabwe wizard was the only fatal case out of over one hundred wizards who crash-landed on roofs of houses in the country. "They normally crash-land, giving lack of fuel as the cause of crash-landing and ending their missions prematurely," Vongo said.

Vongo explained that wizards must fly naked to conceal their identity when flying. "But the most important secret in their view is that the potency of their concoctions would respond to their taking off from the ground when naked than when they are dressed," he said. THAPAZ's director of Information, "Dr" Alex Kekelwa, explained that running out of fuel was not the only reason why wizards crash-land at times.

"Sometimes, some of these chaps fly over enemy territory, and they are shot down with traditional ground to air missiles.

"I am a traditional herbalist and my mission is to save life through healing and so THAPAZ does not recognize witchcraft. But if a wizard flew over my house, which is my territory, I will certainly respond by protecting my family and myself by shooting down a wizard. I do not want to say anything beyond that", Kekelwa stated.

Kekelwa would not attempt to guess the motives of the flying wizards, explaining that he was not one of them so he could not know their strategies. "Maybe some of these guys have concubines they want to visit hundreds of kilometers away from where they live while others have sinister motives of going to kill their targeted enemies."

Original Source: Panafrican News Agency

Cosmiverse Staff Writer

---

Rubbers...yeah...thatll work...

-- William in WI (gnarledmaw@lycos.com), December 07, 2001.

Doreen, what do you mean "the most laughable form of birth control is body armor?" I haven't tried birth control of any type since I got spayed a long time ago.

WI, what kind of bull are you trying to lay on me here? Are the perps you are referring to the ones in 18th century London? I didn't know there were sex ed classes back then. Do you have their email contact information?

Or perhaps you are referring to the sex ed classes given by your "tribal medicine men"?

Surprise, surprise; that's not the sex ed I recommend.

You say, "Rubbers...yeah...thatll work... " I agree. If enough rubbers are placed on your roof, you might eliminate the wizards' knee injuries.

Not to mention protecting your roof.

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 07, 2001.

All I can say is this thread went from bad to the twilight Zone.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), December 07, 2001.

It sure did, huh, Lil Bit?

Say Joe, you must actually practice Biblical monogamy then!-sorry, I couldn't resist-;}

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), December 08, 2001.

I don't care if I am called a far right thumper, but where do you get off pointing your finger at me and saying it is my fault that men rape babies? And why can you not comment to the depravity of it? Is it because in your relative morality raping babies just may be an acceptible thing for you to do tomorrow?

I HAVE taught AIDS prevention after observing that the government program under Clinton did not give usable information to this particular high risk group. This collection of incarcerated, beer sluts, crack whores and crank skanks did not even know the basics. Even with the little bit they did know, they did not have the self control needed to prevent aquiring it. If they can't keep themselves from getting AIDS, they certainly aren't going to care about giving it to someone else.

As far as "free condoms"........Last month a teen girl came to our house upset. She had gone to the HEALTH FAIR on campus to see about careers. A lady from Planned Parenthood or another type group reached over and started shoving free condoms into her backpack. when she got to my house and dumped it out, there were over 300 of them.

I sent Hubby to the store for expensive name brand condoms and I reversed the hose on the vacuume cleaner and we blew them up. Guess which condoms didn't hold up? Yep, free condoms--you get what you pay for! I did this with a mixed crowd of teens. Dear darling daughter thinks her mom is so weird!

So Joe, if you are going to scapegoat me for men raping babies, what are you going to scapegoat me for next?

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), December 09, 2001.

Laura, I saw your TOTALLY OFF THE WALL, RUDE

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 10, 2001.

Laura, I saw your TOTALLY OFF THE WALL, RUDE, assault on my character in the post "paranoia?". I'll let you go read my response there, rather than rewriting the whole thing here.

I don't know where you get off saying it's "my fault that men rape babies". Did you do something to encourage this type of behavior that I hadn't heard about? I don't think so. At least I don't THINK you would encourage a man to rape babies.

As far as "And why can you not comment to the depravity of it? Is it because in your relative morality raping babies just may be an acceptible thing for you to do tomorrow? " I'd be happy to comment on the depravity of raping babies. I think it's even depraved to rape full grown women. I didn't know I had to take a personal stand against it to prove to YOU that I don't plan to rape any babies tomorrow. To even state such a thing about me lablels you, in my mind, as a crude person, with a mean spirited attitude.

I don't have aids, doubt if I'll ever get aids, as I don't run around, my wife doesn't run around (I'm 99.9% certain of this, but one can never be 100% sure, I suppose, if history is to be believed: lots of men, and women, find out that their supposedly faithful spice have been messing around. Some men who have been spayed even end up having pregnant wives. But I'm sure you must be aware of this.) I don't do drugs, and I have never needed a transfusion.

Even if I were to get aids, for some strange reason, I'm not some one who buys into strange theories about fornicating with virgins to get well.

Laura, you are morally lacking, accusing me of something like that.

Doreen, your statement that "Say Joe, you must actually practice Biblical monogamy". No, not really. I don't practice monogamy because the Bible says to. I do it because I have a contract with my wife to do so.

I used to practice what I guess you'd call "serial monogamy". But I've been a faithful hubby for over twenty years now. Thanks for asking :0)

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 10, 2001.

As far as testing a rubber by blowing it up with a vacuum cleaner, go for it, girl! You don't want that hoover getting somebody pregnant!

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 10, 2001.

Are you really trying to suggest that Planned Parenthood was trying to promote passing AIDS around? Gimme a break. What "off brand" of condoms did they give this poor child?

I've always thought French Ticklers were safer than the prelubed ones in designer colors, but I'm willing to try them, I suppose, if the right person asks me.

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 10, 2001.

JOJ, While I totally agree that Laura stepped over the line here. I really wish you could see your way clear to be considerate of the rest of us with the language issue. However, I might lose it too if someone suggested that I could do such a thing. While we may disagree on the issues, I honestly think that we can avoid accusing people of raping babies or suggesting that they might want to. This is certainly not worthy of this list, in my opinion. In this case I think Joe deserves an apology. It is too easy to get carried away with our respective viewpoints and say things that are just unacceptable. Joe was expressing his opinion on a completely separate issue than whether or not it was acceptable to rape babies. While I don't agree with him on the issue, I still think that it is completely off-base to intimate that he is a rapist, or that he would even consider doing such a thing.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), December 10, 2001.

I agree 100% with Little Bit on this.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 10, 2001.

I'm going to play moderator here and not say anything except for: Joe, I edited some of your comments while retaining the thrust of what you wanted to say. Please remember you have a large vocabulary and one of the rules is no excessive cursing.I really appreciate it, :). Thanks!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), December 11, 2001.

Hey Doreen, if someone falsely accused YOU of raping babies (or implying that you did), methinks that you'd be cursing too!

Yes, Joe crossed the line with the language there, and the editing was appropriate, but so did Laura, by making such an incredibly offensive remark.

Joe should apologize for his language (though Laura richly deserved it IMO. If someone accused or implied that *I* raped babies, believe me, I'd have a few choice words about the accuser myself.) and Laura should apologize for that incredibly crass and insensitive remark.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), December 11, 2001.

Sorry, I didn't read your posts very well that first time. Please disregard my previous post.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), December 11, 2001.

Doreen, I didn't know there was a rule against "excessive" cursing. Please explain what that means to you.

By the way, "fornicating virgins" is not synonymous with "fucking virgins" as the verb "to fuck" can be either transitive, as I used it, or intransitive. "To fornicate" can only be intransitive. In other words, you CAN "fuck" a virgin (or a baby, yech), but you can NOT "fornicate" a virgin, or anyone else.

Sorry if the word "fuck" is offensive to you, and you may feel free to edit it out if necessary, but I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with the word, in and of itself.

I find words such as "child abuse" genocide" "hatred", etc. much more offensive than "fuck".

But it's your forum...

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 12, 2001.

Joe you SHOULD be totally insulted by the suggestion that your relative morality and value neutral world view can lead to heinous acts. It shows that some RIGHT WING THUMPER somewhere made an impact on your values that your dog vomit religion that you call science does not allow for. It shows you are a hypocrite to your own system of beliefs. What about the generation that YOU raised that did not have that FAR RIGHT THUMPER influence that you had? What will restrain them? As a person that you have PERSONALLY call a FAR RIGHT THUMPER in the past, along with several other of the posters here, I take it PERSONALLY when you take advantage of a serious MORAL problem as an opportunity to blame us FAR RIGHT THUMPERS for the sins of the world. I will not ALLOW you to lay the bloody, broken and dying babies at my feet and blame me, a FAR RIGHT THUMPER for the actions of men who rape babies. The total disregard for the value of human life is the legacy of YOUR dog vomit religion, not mine. I did not imply that you were a baby raper any stronger that YOU implied that we FAR RIGHT THUMPERS were responsible for their rape.

As YOU are the one who brought up the subject of condoms in reference to men who rape babies, and everyone else is tittering about condoms because all of you are uncomfortable talking about babies who are raped, what IS your point of bringing up condoms on the subject of baby raping? If we passed out free condoms men wouldn't do this? It would be okay for men to rape babies if they used a condom? Tell me, Joe, why would you bring up condoms in the context of baby raping?

Joe, you come to this forum purposely to pick fights, insult Christians, mock God and attempted to elevate yourself in your own eyes. You know who God is, you know his words and yet you reject Him to honor the doctrine of devils and follow the religion that your own human mind is your god. DOG PUKE!! Yours is a self serving god, 666, the number of man, me, myself and I!

I am not coddling you anymore. You have chosen your system of beliefs and I am going to hold you to your own standard. It will be up to YOU to admit that it is wrong or that you are a hypocrite to your own beliefs.

As you are so much a proponent of population control, why are you still here? Because you are a self serving hypocrite!

As to the rest of you who were offended by my posts to Jump Off Joe, I make no apologies as to the intent of my posts. The fact that no one else called him on his statements just shows me that everyone has been hearing this garbage for so long, that moral decay is the fault of Christians, that you have internalized it and made it a part of your own thoughts. I call you to reject these lies and put blame where it belongs, on those who have no higher moral law then self.

And to those who consider yourselves mature Christians, when is the last time you got your feet dirty in the service of the LORD?

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), December 12, 2001.

I guess I have to really question what you consider getting your feet dirty serving the Lord. If it means demeaning others, I would hope never, although I have on occasion fallen into that. The Lord I serve loved sinners and the only one I ever saw Him viciously attack were people who thought that they were holy. I have served in the mission field of Haiti where I met many different types of people, some who even worshipped satan. IMHO a mature Christian does not call names or indulge themselves in thinking that they are holier than anyone.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 12, 2001.

Joe, I prefer that no one curse at all, but I know that many people interject much of their conversation with less volatile expletives and am willing to allow that so long as it doesn't take over the entire post. Basically, if you wouldn't use that language in front of your grandmother, please don't use it here. I don't think I need to go into particular detail, just use common courtesy. I appreciate it, and am sure that others do, too.

Laura, if you mean calling sin what it is then the last time I got my feet dirty was last night. I still do not think that Joe accused us of causing babies to be raped. The thread drifted to the prevention of Aids as opposed to the horror of baby rape......At least that is the way I saw it. I don't "titter" about condoms, they are a seriously lacking protection. The answer (as with everything) is for folks to get right with God and then these ravages of the flesh would cease. I just know that it isn't going to happen as that's what the Bible tells us. Folks are called to different manners of witness. Some are very strong and pointed and some are very loving and relaxed. They are all necessary. To my sisters, we may disagree, but we shall not fight amongst ourselves here with "who is holier and who is most righteous". Please, understand.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), December 12, 2001.

Understood Doreen.............and I would hope by now you would know that was not the point I was trying to make (that ANYONE was more holy). Yes, we all have very different witnessing styles, but I think we can agree that we do have a forerunner who showed us how to live. If we are to believe that the Bible is the Word of God than we are also to believe and take Christ at his Word. I would have to assume that a predjudice against education would not include a predjudice against studying the Bible; particularly the life of Christ and His very words. I find it very interesting that each and every time I try to bring people back to the gentleness of Christ on these forums that I am criticized, or accused of arguing about who is holiest. I really don't get it. Best wishes and my prayers are with you Laura. I think I will go back into lurker mode and let all you people alone.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 12, 2001.

Laura, I am sorry but I still think that you are offbase here. Here is what JOJ said, "I can't address the base depravity aspect, but as far as the superstition aspect, isn't it a bit strange that our far right thumpers, including our beloved president, do everything possible to prevent aids education, and to prevent the distribution of rubbers???"

In my view, his basic point was, that if there were more AIDS education and condom distribution then it would not be necessary for people in Africa to be concerned about getting rid of AIDS in the first place. While I think this is extremely simplistic, because the spread of AIDS was very far along in Africa before scientists ever came up with the mythology that condoms protect against it, JOJ was not in anyway blaming anyone for the depravity of baby rape. In fact he deliberately didn't address that issue, as he says in his post. It is my opinion that you got angry and blew this up into something it wasn't. As far as the rape of Babies go, what is it that you want the rest of us to say Laura? It is absolutely disgusting. It tears my heart up that this happens in the world. I think these people should be severely punished. Of Course we are uncomfortable talking about it. The question is, what can I do about it, other than grieve for those children it happens to. There are many horrible things that happen in the world because of sin. Babies are raped, little girls are emasculated, people are killed, beaten, and blown up etc. We all know they happen, but are at a loss to stop it. it is completely normal for all of us when presented with a thread that contains horrible depravity to want to carry that thread into a different subject area. I also totally think it is acceptable to do so. I honestly was even uncomfortable having it as a topic of discussion in the first place (no offense Doreen). There is nothing we can do about this horror happening in another country, and it seems to make it worse by airing it in a public forum. I think Doreen was even uncomfortable sharing it, which is why she warned us from the getgo. I think that it was good to have the info, but I don't think that it needed to be a subject we all just trounced around in just like any other homesteading topic. In fact I purposely didn't post in regards to that. Personally I think all of this, is kinda like walking on those little one's graves.

Even so, I still don't think Joe deserves in this case what you are throwing at him. In fact I kinda appreciated the turn in conversation to a subject that was easier to deal with in a piblic manner. Also, I don't feel you are giving you Christian brothers and sisters credit where credit is due. All of us have shared our beliefs with Joe on more than one occasion. All of us care about his eternal life. He, however is entitled by God, to choose whom he will follow. We cannot make that decision for him. he has also presented me with plenty of opportunities to share my faith with all the others who have perhaps not made up their mind quite as dogmatically as he has. "All things work together for good etc..."

Laura, I understand your anger. The problem is that attacking him and your brothers and sisters in Christ doesn't do anything to resolve what you are really upset about. Those babies are being hurt because of sin. The only way to resolve sin is by sharing your faith with others, even with those who don't want to hear. JOJ has probably let loose on me as much or more than anyone here, but the truth is, I genuinely like him. More importantly I genuinely want to see him in heaven. He doesn't appreciate that, as he clearly told me when I sent him that first private e-mail telling him about Jesus. I am a thorn in his side much of the time, but at least he has the courage of his convictions. I am afraid they won't be of much comfort when he meets Jesus though. All I want to be is salt and light for Jesus. Sometimes I am pretty salty which is why I and other Christians like me really burn him up. Giggle. And yes I know his response to all I am saying here is "Oh Brother!". Doesn't bother me atall! May God bless him and You Laura.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), December 12, 2001.

Laura, Laura, Laura! Calm yourself! You're going to have a stroke, if you don't get a grip, girl!

Dog vomit is not my god. Science is not my god, either. So sorry.

I still don't understand why you think I'm blaming you for raping babies. Are you hiding some ugly secret from your past? Could you please explain why you think I'm blaming you for this? I'm not, you know. I am blaming thumpers for preventing the distribution of condoms, and the dispensing of INFORMATION, which could well save many abortions, and save many people from getting AIDS, along with lots of other ugly diseases.

As far as the "generation that I raised" which didn't have the "benefit" of a far right thumper, well, my son is the director of a Boys and Girls club, so I guess he came out ok, no? His honey (yes, they are living in sin, having not gotten married at this point) works for a center which counsels abused children--mostly rape victims. I won't mention who the perps were, as you might get insulted. My other son is a veterinarian, so he's probably doomed by you to hell, since he's a "scientist". His wife is a mother of three little babies, so I suppose she's the top dog in your book. My daugher is manager of a modelling agency, and is a college student, majoring in art therapy. I think she's going to be ok in the long run. Her husband (yes, they are married; how it hurts me that she refused to follow my orders to live in sinful lust) is the director of the after school program for the YMCA. (this totally morifies me, of course, because of the "C" in the YMCA's name. The shame, the shame.

As to your question, "As YOU are the one who brought up the subject of condoms in reference to men who rape babies, and everyone else is tittering about condoms because all of you are uncomfortable talking about babies who are raped, what IS your point of bringing up condoms on the subject of baby raping?" I'm afraid your reading skills could use some polishing.

The subject of condoms was brought up first by Doreen, then by you, dear girl. Your reference to these tools was in regards to a young girl who had some of them (300?) crammed into her back pack. You then said that these same condoms were faulty, which seems to imply that Planned Parenthood, who allegedly forced her to take them, was passing out faulty condoms. That's why I mentioned the condoms; I was, and still am, very dubious that Planned Parenthood would deliberately give out faulty condoms. Now that I think about it, I wonder if the whole event ever even happened. Perhaps someone is using excess hyperbole.

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 12, 2001.

Doreen, I'll try to avoid words I wouldn't use around my grandmother; she was of the very old school, as she was born and raised in the 19th century. I guess living out here on the west coast, I see things differently than you do. But I will try to limit my use of expletives, for your benefit.

Laura, to continue, you said, "I did not imply that you were a baby raper any stronger that YOU implied that we FAR RIGHT THUMPERS were responsible for their rape. " Sorry, but that is not true. I never iplied that you thumpers were responsible for baby rape. You, however, said, "Is it because in your relative morality raping babies just may be an acceptible thing for you to do tomorrow? " Gee, Laura, could it be that this statement might imply that I'm a baby raper? You might consider that what you write here does not go away, and it's not just my faulty memory which gives me the idea that you said that.

I'm glad you took the trouble to teach aids prevention. I'm concerned as to whether your heart was in the right place, though, since you referred to your students as " beer sluts, crack whores and crank skanks". What would your god say about that attitude? Aren't these " beer sluts, crack whores and crank skanks" god's children? Shame on you for looking down on these poor sufferers.

I do agree with one thing you said, Laura: "I am not coddling you anymore." I agree! I don't feel particularly coddled.

Little Bit, I agree that to believe that the use of condoms would solve the problem of aids is simplistic. I did not intend to say that. I do think that the use of condoms would be at least a partial solution insofar as it would prevent SOME spread of the disease.

Certainly, I would never deliberately have sex with someone who had aids, condom or no. I wouldn't stand in waist deep water and grab hold of a live electric line while wearing dishwashing gloves, either. But, just the way I try to never grab a hot wire with one hand, while grabbing a neutral wire or a ground wire, even though I'm pretty sure I have turned off the circuit breaker, I'd certainly use a rubber if I were to have sex with someone other than my wife, unless I knew her extremely well. Fortunately for me, I don't have extra marital sex; I'm just very happy that I didn't have to worry about aids when I was batching about and screwing as many young women as possibe, many, many years ago.

Since it's basically impossible to convince 100% of people to avoid having sex with more than one partner, I still say that using a rubber is a good insurance policy. But just like a seat belt will not always prevent a serious injury or death in a car accident, a rubber is not a 100% guarantee that you won't get aids, or cause a pregnancy, etc.

In conclusion, LBF, "oh, brother" :0)

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 12, 2001.

Thanks Joe, I wouldn't want to think you didn't care.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), December 12, 2001.

"As you are so much a proponent of population control, why are you still here? Because you are a self serving hypocrite!"

There are means of controlling human population other than killing humans, you idiot!

"...that moral decay is the fault of Christians..."

I don't ever recall him saying that. Besides that, like it or not, every human being is capable, and prone to, Sin. Don't even think for a SECOND that you are immune because you call yourself a Christian. Corruption and Sin cross over all cultural, religious, and ethic boundaries. Considering yourself immune just because you are Christian, Muslim, Pagan, Jew, or whatever is self-delusion. You are Human, therefore capable of Sin, AS AM I. Besides, if you asked Hilter, Pol Pot, Stalin or Genghis Khan whether or not they are evil, I seriously doubt they'd say yes. Evil people usually don't see themselves as such.

"I can't address the base depravity aspect, but as far as the superstition aspect, isn't it a bit strange that our far right thumpers, including our beloved president, do everything possible to prevent aids education, and to prevent the distribution of rubbers???"

Is there anywhere in the quote that implied that you or the "far right thumpers" rape babies? I don't see any. All I see is him impling that George and his disciples being unwilling to provide aid in the task of warning people about AIDS and taking measures to mitigate its spread and even worse than that, trying to IMPEDE the progress of accomplishing those tasks. Besides, if AIDS were to stop spreading, just think of what that would do to the potential profits for the pharmaceutical companies! Oops, there just went a few billion dollars down the drain.....

You crossed the line with your statement, and in the process, you have lost any respect I may have had for you (like there was much to begin with).

PS: I noticed in another thread where you were aruging with me on overpopulation, I noticed that the "Just Ducky" posts came almost exactly at the same time as yours. Was that you trying to troll while incognito? If that was, I REALLY did NOT appreciate that. If not, it does not change my impression of you being a mean, nasty female dog.

PPS: In no way is God involved in my PS. I'm just stating just what I think of you.

To the others: I apologize for the nasty, inflammatory tone of this post, I felt that I HAD to let this out of my system.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), December 12, 2001.

Now hold up there, buckaroo! It seems to me that there is a lot of unecessary attacking going on, sir. Why can't you just let it go???

I for one have a lot of respect for Laura. She is often quite good at piercing through issues and hitting the core of them, and a great help in many areas and I really enjoy reading her posts. Tho' I disagree with the conclusion she came to on this, it seems like it's time to sit back.

Joj, thanks for the language restraint!!!;). It's not really so much for me as I have surely been on the other side of it, but respect for others.

Lil Bit, your longish post up there really was a good overview. You are right.....lots of horrors we are helpless to do anything about. I was only hoping to bring this out to the point where folks were aware of it so that hopefuly some steps could be taken to change some of the thought patterns these folks have. I never really thought this would turn into what it did, and am kind of sorry I brought it up.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), December 13, 2001.

Joe, your statement that us FAR RIGHT THUMPERS are preventing people of your religion from throwing money and condoms at these people is the cause of men raping babies is what set me off because it is a lie!

Men are raping babies all over the world and they are not doing this to cure AIDS. They are raping babies so they don't get AIDS from the the 8 year old sex slaves in third world countries. Baby brothels are big business in Asia. Pedophile sex tours are a major source of income in Thailand ,Phillipines and other countries that don't have God. Families sell their children to the slavers who make big bucks selling the children to guess who? Rich white American and European men. When these children are about 12 years old, they have full blown AIDS and they are sent back to their villages to die. They do not rape babies because they are uneducated or because they don't have a condom. They rape babies because they can.

Right here in our own country, in every town and village, there are babies being raped. In the early 80s the push to prosecute pedophiles caused these men to victimize preverbal children who could not testify against them. When DNA evidence became a tool, guess what, these pedophiles started wearing condoms to rape babies. Education and condoms does not create a moral conscience and a moral conscience is what our nation, including Christians, is missing the most.

Because ya'll don't want to see these children or deal with this issue, you've left them in the care of the left wing godless social engineers. What used to land a pervert in prison or mental facility is now treated with understanding and, of course, education. We can;t even lock them up under civil commitment anyore because it violates their "civil rights." What was once considered a dangerous incurable sexual deviancy is following the same path as homosexuality. If these left wing social engineers get their way, the predelection for small children will be down graded to nothing more than a sexual preference that cannot be discriminated against.

I have personally heard a social worker tell a mother that she was sending a 3 year old child home with her sexually abusive father for the weekend because "it's been going on for so long, she probably likes it."

I have personally heard a court appointed psychologist testify in court that, "It is good for a child to spend time with their abuser so they can have good memories too instead of just the bad ones."

I've had little kids hang on me so tight that I got a dislocated shoulder when the social workers pull them off to force them to go home with their abusers. I've gone for a home check and found a bloody condom, bloody child's slippers and underwear while the perpetrators blew the state!

I saw 14 years of what Joe's brand of solution has done for these kids, and Joe is full of USDA prime bovine excrement! It got them abused not only by their rapists, but by those who were left in charge of their care because nobody wants to see or know about them. There are even folks who claim that baby rape does not even exist.

Little Bit, you asked what you could do about it? For a start, when people like Joe claim that it is us FAR RIGHT THUMPERS who are standing in the way of their morally corrupt social engineering, you actively and loudly reject those statements.

You can organize the women of your church and form a Families Union to minister and help the young mothers of your community. Become a Victim's Advocate. Become a foster parent to abused kids. Oklahoma is one of the few states where foster parents' testimony carries equal weight as a social worker.

Support overseas missions. There are several orphanages that need resources to outbid the slave traders for these babies. They need workers, food and housing to raise these children to young adults in their own country.

There are a lot of things we can do for thes kids. Turning our backs on them and listening to condom jokes and Joe describing his sex life are not on the list of things we can do.

Nexar, just knowing that you so totally dislike and disrespect me, gives me the warm fuzzies. To meet your approval would tell me I wasn't right with God.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), December 13, 2001.

"Now hold up there, buckaroo! It seems to me that there is a lot of unecessary attacking going on, sir. Why can't you just let it go??? "

Interesting Doreen.............that you would say that to Nexar after the incredible wretched things Laura has said about others over and over and over. ANYONE of an opposing view is attacked by her, no matter if they are brothers and sisters in Christ or not. She obviously means it or some sort of apology would have been given.

Although I appreciate your wanting people of opposing views to consider to continue posting here, I think my decision to move on will stand.

And Laura, I am quite certain that even in your ignorance you were quite aware of what LBF was trying to say; which I think was very appropriate. JOJ asked you a question and you ignored that one as well. Seems that stomping around and name calling are all you are REALLY capable of. You continue to be obnoxious to anyone who might have a different point of view and somehow feel "justified" by God. I pity you dear and will continue to pray for you even though I will no longer participate on this board. IMO you will go to any length to be RIGHT; including telling some pretty tall tales. Please remember that sin is sin and there really is none that are righteous, no not one.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 13, 2001.

Doreen, I'm going to try hard to refrain from using expletives on this particular forum; generally I consider excess cursing an excuse for a lack of vocabulary; you know: F'ing this, f'ing that, etc. instead of using some descriptive adjective which better expresses what the speaker is trying to say.

But I do think a good four letter word, when used properly, can express a strong feeling better than some other words, just for the shock value to overly conservative (my judgement) listeners.

But, I'll try to be "good" for you, Doreen.

On the other hand, please explain to me how Laura's statement " Joe is full of USDA prime bovine excrement! " is less offfensive than me calling her full of "sh*t". OK? I actually think that to say someone is full of "sh*t" is such a cliche that it only really means that they are very wrong. At least it's not so graphicly offensive as a full bore description of some cow's fresh droppings..OH well.

Laura, I've tried to reason with you. I've repeatedly made it clear that I have never tried to blame you, or any other thumper, for baby rape. I've also made it clear that I don't approve of baby rape.

You, on the other hand, continue to groundlessly make these accusations, with no explanation as to why you believe them.

Now, you've gone so far overboard, in so many different arenas, that I can only conclude that you are a paranoid fool. Your fears are wacky. Virtually every aspect of your last post displays your lack of connection to the real world. Get help.

Diane, I agree with your assessment that Laura is telling some pretty tall tales. And the rest of your assessments about her, for that matter. Dislocated shoulder. Right.

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 13, 2001.

Clearly, this is a very emotional, volatile topic. So could you all do me a favor and head over to the Anarchist Guide to Raising Kids forum on Lusenet and help me out on the Sex Ed post??

Laura, I did not see where Joe is condoning child abuse in any way. I don't think his religion has anything to do with it (didn't think he had a religion). And, I have seen a lot of abused kids in 'Christian' families. Where the mother was hiding her head in the sand to be a good wife and hold the family together. I do feel that the degraded status of women and the pedastal status of men has a LOT to do with child abuse.

-- Chamoisee (chamoisee@yahoo.com), December 13, 2001.

Sorry, it is the 'Is incest OK' thread I was thinking of. They are both awful and I think your considerable energies would be well applied there.

-- Chamoisee (chamoisee@yahoo.com), December 13, 2001.

Chamoisee, I read your post at that very weird forum. Good post. I agree with you. Many of the folks there are pretty far out.

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 13, 2001.

"Nexar, just knowing that you so totally dislike and disrespect me, gives me the warm fuzzies"

This very admission that you delight in having others hate you shows you for the twisted, demented person that you are. I, on the other hand, do NOT relish the fact that you hate me. Quite frankly. I wished we had never met. One last line to you from this "godless" left-winger. When God purged the world the first time, He did not do so with perverted glee (as I suspect you would have) but with a heavy heart. He wished things didn't have to come to such a thing, yet He knew that he must. If you truly want to be right with God, then keep your mind open and your mouth shut.

Now I will pray that God will heal the grievous wounds inflicted here. I will say nothing more on this matter.

-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), December 13, 2001.

All I was trying to do was slow the assaulting of *everyone* all around. Humorously. Sheesh. I quit. Go ahead and through leviathon excrement at eachother. I can kill the bleedin' thread.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), December 13, 2001.

Nah. Let the excrement lay here. Maybe it'll compost.

-- (bisquit@here.com), December 13, 2001.

I'm going to worship my dog vomit now...

-- joj (jump@off.c), December 13, 2001.