Reading through the posts on whether or not pets should be 'fixed', and about pet overpopulation, vet bills, whether it is right or wrong to take certain procedures into ones own hands, the thought came to me. Why? The country is overrun with cats and dogs, yet they go right on breeding- feral, barn, pets, purebreds, all are churning out millions of their kind. What becomes of them all? How many are simply put to sleep or outright killed? Of the ones that live, how many lead a quality, worthwhile life? How many are abused by men and children, neglected by the very people who thought it was such a cute thing- when it was little. How many millions and billions of dollars in pet food do we spend on these animals that, for the most part, produce nothing but more of themselves? How many starving children could be fed with that money, and with the grain that goes into that pet food?

Clearly, something needs to be done. There are several possible solutions.

• We could take a lesson from the Vietnamese and other Asian groups who are too practical to ignore this abundant source of meat. I have firsthand reports that puppy is very tender and good eating.
• All euthanized pets could be steam-cooked and the meat sterilized to prevent disease transmission, and used to make pet food. The pet food could have a birth control additive. Incentives could be made to the pet food companies to use this type of by product in all 'affordable' pet food. High grade, expensive pet food would not have the birth control additive, thus, only those who could afford to breed pet animals would do so. This option would solve two problems- the extravagant waste of money on pet food, and the reckless proliferation of these animals.
• Why do we have to keep, feed, and vet animals that we can't eat? Are pets a statuts symbol of having money to throw around? Why not keep species that could be eaten when they have outlived their function as a pet or when they become too numerous, such as rabbits, chickens, ducks, goats, doves, and guinea pigs? (yes! You can eat guinea pigs!!) There are many species that are intelligent and affectionate. Most of them do not chase cars or bark at night, or attack neighbors livestock, or kill songbirds.
• Or what about smaller pets, such as parakeets? They eat less, and disposal of their bodies is not a problem. It can be tricky to breed them so most people don't. Overpopulation would not be a problem. Parakeets are affectionate and friendly. They can even be taught to talk, and they are more intelligent than most people give them credit for.

In short, there are a lot of things that could be done. Maybe it's a mistake to keep animals for pets if we humanize them so much, that they become to us, what the sacred cow is to India.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 06, 2001

Answers

monkeys,, you can eat those too,,( I have),, and,, maybe,, we can have the planet of apes,, WHOO,,,,,art imatateing life??

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), December 06, 2001.

Rebekah, How about puttin a birth control pill in every biscuit we send to the parents of those poor starving kids.

-- Bettie Ferguson (jobett@dixie-net.com), December 06, 2001.

I have been looking for a good cat tamale recipe ever since I left Coffyeville! :)

-- Karen Mauk (kansasgoats@iwon.com), December 06, 2001.

Reasons tokeep cats: they are relaxing and they kill mice, rats and other small vermin. Does anyone remember the Black Death? Stupid humans in another time thought cats were bad so they killed them and then grain become infested with diseased mouse droppings. Do we really want that again? So is it OK to have children that you can't afford and then beg for someone else to pay for them but not have a pet. What about the overpopulation of humans?? Should we kill off and eat the useless and stupid humans?? If so, you better watch out!! As for humanizing cats and dogs; they ARE more humane than most humans. A mother cat will lick her dead kitten for days trying to get it to breathe while millions of unborn babies are aborted by their "human" mothers. Also, if you are so concerned about all the starving children in the world when was the last time you sent food or money to them??? Or better yet go to these countries and HELP feed them instead of wasting your time thinking up stupid "thoughts".

-- Lou Ann in KY (homes_cool@msn.com), December 06, 2001.

No dead animal can be cooked enough to clean it of disease. Are you proposing they gut all the euthanized pets before they cook them? That's enough to spread all kinds of disease right there. Something as simple as Giardia can only be killed with a blow torch or amonnia. Haven't we allready learned that lesson with Mad Cow Disease? I think you wrote this as a joke or something. It's not very funny.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 06, 2001.

People, this is alluding to a satirical work by Jonathon Swift, who in 1729 penned the original A Modest Proposal. Get it?

-- Bren (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), December 06, 2001.

That is sick.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 06, 2001.

What is sick, Swift's Modest Proposal? It is a satire, because there was talk of too many poor Irish having kids. Sound familiar? What is really sick is that in China where forced abortion is rampant, aborted fetuses are consumed as a healthfood (and it's not the poor that are doing it).

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), December 06, 2001.

Rebekah,

I like it!

where is that Cat Taco recipe!?

-- lurkylu (lurkylu@yahoo.com), December 06, 2001.

Rebekah,

I am completely shocked at your post. You are saying this in jest aren't you? I am so aghast at it. I guess i love my dogs, cats and goaties too much and am guilty of making them my "babies." I know in the back of my mind they are animals, but still I can see feelings in them too. Now i am really getting angry as I think about how my special doe Wizard communicated with me just beforw she died that she wanted to pass on over the Rainbow bridge. I lost her to a bad kidding, her uterus was ruptered and she died from internal bleeding. I tried in vain to save her. I CRIED for days, it hurt so much! See just before she died i went out to the barn at midnight to give her a does of calcium gluconate and when i did she wa slaying near her adopted mom. I kneeled down and looked at her, she was getting cold, her nose was cold, then what hit me the hardest was she had tears coming down her face. I then told her gently that if she had to go I understood if she couldn't fight it anymore. She responded by gently nudging my hand and laid her head on my lap. And to those who are reading this and saying, "Big Deal, she was just a goat!" I say this, you have a right to your own opinions, but please respect mine. this doe loved me a lot and I her. She would always come running to me and when I had a bad day she would jump up my shoulders from behind and kiss me.

As for the dogs, I saw the Chinese on hidden camera on 20/20 a few yrs back and how they skinned dogs alive for their pelts and sold them to the fur comapnies to make coats and stuffed animals. Can you imagine what that must have felt like, not numbed or dead, but ALIVE!!!!!!!!!! I also recall seeing some pics in Time magazine about 10 yrs ago of how the Chinese will buy puppies skinned out and the pics were quite graphic.

Now remeber, ya'll are entitled to your own opinions and thats fine, but please respect mine. guess i could ahve NOT read this post, but did. I am so offended.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), December 06, 2001.

Rebekah, how very Swiftian your reply! Methinks your replies will be similar to those that Jonathan got to his "Modest Proposal"!

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), December 06, 2001.

Satire

-- Bren (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), December 06, 2001.

Link didn't work. Merriam-Webster Online

Main Entry: sat·ire Pronunciation: 'sa-"tIr Function: noun 1 : a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn 2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly synonym see WIT

-- Bren (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), December 06, 2001.

I think Rebekah makes some good points. What is the source of the feral dog and cat problem? It would seem to me you have to place some of the blame on the concepts of petowners and also on professional animal breeders. Why do we need all these breeders when there's so many homeless animals in shelters? You can present a pretty good case that organizations like AKC have caused more damage to dogs than done good. Maybe if people weren't in the business of trading in dogs and cats alot less animals would end up put to death in shelters.

As far as eating cats and dogs, I see nothing wrong with that as long as they're not someones pets. Some people have pet pigs, yet nobody is screaming how terrible it is that others eat them. Millions of people in this world eat cat and dogs. Others are just as shocked that people eat pork or cows. But many who'd never think of eating a dog don't give a thought about bacon or steaks. Some would never imagine eating horse or even goat but in other countries it's a fine meal. It's narrowminded to expect that everyone should eat what you eat or because you look at an animal as a pet they have no right to look at it as food. I personally can't fathom why people find shellfish appetizing but I don't condemn them for eating it.

Is gutting a dog any different than gutting a pig or deer? I don't think so.

I'm sure you could go into any meat processing plant in the US and piece together a dramatic video of animal suffering if that's your agenda. I've seen korean cat prepared and it was no different whatsoever than butchering a chicken.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 06, 2001.

OK Dave, so you felt the need to voice your opinions, albeit to the degree that you are IMPOSING your feelings and beliefs onto others. Its appropraite to propose another side to this discussion, however, the manner in which you voiced or wrote your opinions smacked of a cruel insolant undertone. I am not calling you insolent and am not offending your thinking here. I am merely suggesting that you might have better articulated your thoughts and opinions in a less "attacking" manner. I think I might be best able to illustrate this in the following manner:

Cannabalism (sp?) is practiced in some parts of the world, so if I were to propose the idea that gutting a person (I could have said you but will refrain from doing so) is no different than gutting a deer or a pig appropriate, NO, its NOT! However, there are similiar paradigms in that suggestion.

I agree that there needs to be some type of control the growth of homeless cats and dogs, but to suggest so in manner as you did that this would be a viable and solution in the manner that you did provokes the reader to ponder your real intentions.

As I cautioned earlier there should be mutual respect for opinions on this post. And I am obviously missing the respect from you in your post.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), December 06, 2001.

I agree with your post, Dave, and found it not in the least "insolent" ??

-- Earthmama (earthmama@yahoo.com), December 06, 2001.

It's called SATIRE folks!

I love animals... all animals.... preferably bar-b-qued!

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), December 06, 2001.

It takes me awhile sometimes to "get the punch line!" I am blonde and very Polish, no offense, I really am so i missed the satire. How ironic. Geeze..... let me get the cast iron cauldron out and BBQ my favorite, cadiver with hot sauce!

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), December 07, 2001.

The only thing satire and sarcasm ever accomplished is confusion, insult and anger. Why can't a person make a statement with plain English? Better to persuade with honey than to sting with vinegar; I think the purpose of this thread and preceding threads along these lines has been to perpetuate a dialogue which has proven that we all have different opinions on the subject, and which that we all are quite firm in our beliefs. Shall we move on to more worthwhile threads? Moreover, why do I feel obligated to answer this one?????

-- Dawn (olsoncln@ecenet.com), December 07, 2001.

Bernice I'm sorry if you think I was imposing anything. I merely offered my thoughts and am just debating the issue. I didn't demand that anyone do anything. A few of my sentences were offered as questions rather than statements. The rest were rationales, not demands. I only mentioned gutting because someone else mentioned it. I offered out that it was no more unsanitary or a health threat to gut a dog rather than a deer since someone claimed it was. I did not say I think we should start gutting dogs.

I don't see where I am attacking anyone. I did not call anyone names. I did not get emotional and fill my post with !!!! or ????. I did suggest that maybe it was narrowminded for people to impose their beliefs on others. I said, "It's narrowminded to expect that everyone should eat what you eat or because you look at an animal as a pet they have no right to look at it as food." You're welcome to show me how that isn't narrowminded. I didn't use that term to attack, but rather to defend. At no time did I suggest people should do what I think or that I was right and they were wrong. I was just trying to say stop and look at the issue from all sides without prejudice.

You may be confusing my statements with someone elses. You said, "I agree that there needs to be some type of control the growth of homeless cats and dogs, but to suggest so in manner as you did that this would be a viable and solution in the manner that you did provokes the reader to ponder your real intentions."

I did not suggest a solution to this problem. I did state that I believe that the business of breeding cats and dogs is part of the problem. I also said I see nothing wrong with people eating cats and dogs. However, I did not say we all should start eating cats and dogs to solve the issue of homeless animals. I believe you must have confused me with some of the things others posted.

My only intent was to debate this issue in a rational way without letting emotions get involved. I never said anyone did not have a right to their own opinion and should submit to mine. I never demanded that anything be done about this issue. Maybe I'm missing something. Please show me where I said anything disrespectful, rude or attacking to anyone in this thread and if so I'll gladly apologize.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 07, 2001.

Dang, it its time someone clued you guys in... Go visit a dog pound for a while- maybe offer to help out if you want to see the inside scoop. Cats, when euthenized, are poked in the heart with a needle. They are not "put to sleep" they bounce around in the cage for several minutes. Dogs get off easier. There IS a problem with too many cats and dogs, here. I own both cats and dogs, none of which I ever bought from a dealer of breeder- all of which were resqued. I am not suggesting we eat them, nor feed them to other pets, nor use them for fur. I am suggesting that each and everyone of us needs to think before we get that cute puppy: will I be able to afford this dog? he will weigh 80 lbs and lose much of his 'puppy appeal'.. Can I make his life comfortable? If you cant, dont get him no matter how much your kids beg. Rebecka and dave made some very good points here. They are not promoting cruelty to animals (go visit a large scale hog house, slautering facility or chicken coop- you might redefine what is 'cruel' -having worked at a large scale pig farm, I am not just blowing smoke here). Dont react with all this oh gosh- someone is talking about eating cat. I mean, there is an underlying problem here with over population of animals (pets) and something MUST be done about it. I am not saying to go trade you cat for a parakeet, however. Oh, yeah: Rebecka, go get a cat. Get it from the pound, so you can save its life. it will change your outlook some, I think.

Want to see the eyes of G-d? Look in your pets eyes, there you will find them. For we are all made of star dust- whether you are a cat, a dog, a human, a pig, a squirrel./

-- Kevin in NC (Vantravlrs@aol.com), December 07, 2001.

Great suggestions Kevin. Last month I had a cat wandering around outside here. She was a young beautiful all white cat that was very friendly. She had a collar on her and it had a tag with a name and number. I immediately assumed somebody was missing this cat dearly. I called the number and the person said it wasn't theirs. They didn't sound sincere to me. I did a reverse lookup on att.com on the number and the address was just down the road from me and it was the same name on the tag. I'm 99% sure it was their cat and they just got tired of it and didn't think to remove its collar. This little cat was real sweet but I knew I didn't want to take on any more responsibility than I have. I wish I could have since I got pretty attached to her, more than my kids did. It obviously was way too domesticated to live out in the woods with the feral cats I've befriended so turning it away was not an option. Neither was eating it ; ) There's no way I'd take it to a shelter just so they would kill it. So I kept her around for a few weeks until I found a nice loving family that had been looking for a cat. Both them and the cat have been very happy now. I've missed her sometimes. This was the 2nd time the past year I've found a home for a lost/abandoned cat. I'm not as cruel as some think I am.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 07, 2001.

I have a cat that was ran off, Not by us, she was gone for 18 months, and crawled back home, very injured to get back to us. It has taken a year to get her back to reasonable good health. She no longer leaves our house. She loves my DH. I have to agree with Bernice on the animal feelings. I know they are only animals but they show their feelings for us and THEY TRUST Us if they love us. Sorry I can't eat mine........UGH....Bernice about your goat, I'm sorry. I love goats too. Just lost my Collie, and cried for days. She was a sweetie....

-- Barb (vozarbi@sensible-net.com), December 07, 2001.

Joke or satire or whatever, I still think this is sick. I went to the link last night, and I really wish I hadn't. I don't need to see those pictures in my mind. There are kids on this forum, or did some of you forget? Maybe kids don't need to read that either. Maybe some kids don't realize it's some sort of sick joke. It's disgusting no matter what you call it, and this is a family forum.

I think this overpopulation of cats and dogs issue is a wee bit out of control on this forum. For crying out loud. I really don't think folks who homestead contribute to this problem. You're talking to the wrong audience. We know what responsibility is concerning animals. We don't dump animals somewhere else.

I choose to get a female cat, and let her have kittens. And her kittens stay here on the farm, they don't leave. I need cats here. And I take good care of them. So what.

I also sell pups. So what. Shave my head, take away my charge cards and my birthday. I'll still have my dogs.

Go to any auction and see how many goats, ponies, horses and even fine draft horses go to slaughter every single week. Practice what you preach then, and don't breed anything.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 07, 2001.

I have to disagree on the companion animal ovepopulation problem, no matter where you live, you are either part of the problem, or part of the solution, it's that simple, and can be applied to every aspect of your life.

Frankly, millions of companion animals having to be unhumanely destroyed every day is repugnant to me, and speaks of a tremendous lack of responsbility on the human caretakers of this planet, we domesticated them, we are responsible for them.

Companion animals I could never eat however, but then, I don't mammals at all. Too close to our own species, thank you very much!

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), December 07, 2001.

Cindy said:

>>"I also sell pups. So what..... take away my....birthday. I'll still have my dogs."<<

Cindy where do I go so they will take away some of my birthdays? I don't need them anymore!

-- westbrook (westbrook_farms@yahoo.com), December 07, 2001.

I hate to ruin your day but just to let you know, they DO use euthanised pets in pet food. I read an article about it a few months ago. I was sick! I will never again buy dog food. It will be scraps for mine when I get one!

-- buffy (buffyannjones@hotmail.com), December 07, 2001.

REBEKAH.....DOG MEAT IS BEING SOLD IN NORTH AMERICA.DOG MEAT IS SOLD IN MY PROVINCE AS WELL AS CAT MEAT.APPARENTLY,IF THE ANIMALS ARE BRED FOR THE MEAT ITS OK SOME HOW.CHANCES ARE ITS FOR ASIAN CLIENTEL. MILLIONS OF DOGS ARE PUT DOWN THEN INCINERATED WHEN THERE ARE MILLIONS OF STARVING PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER IT A GOURMET MEAL.YES REBEKAH THE CATS AND DOGS ARE OUR HOLY COW IN NORTH AMERICA.REMEMBER FOLKS THE WORLDS POPULATION KEEPS DOUBLING EVERY FEW YEARS.SOON THE FOOD SUPPLY WILL NOT MEET DEMANDS.LOOK AT THE FARM LANDS THAT HAVE NOW BECOME HOUSING AREAS.WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO GET THE NEW FOOD REQUIRED TO FEED ALL THESE PEOPLE?

CORDWOODGUY

-- CORDWOODGUY (cordwoodguy@n2teaching.com), December 07, 2001.

There is nothing wrong with eating an animal pet or not. I however think it would be very hard to eat one of my dogs as I'm so attached. I would be more inclined, if I were starving, to try useing my dog (she is large) to run down some game first. But I wouldn't hesitate to eat one if I had no other choice, after all, my familey is more important than my pets if I was forced to choose.

If birth control medication (for both human & animal) was free or getting a pet fixed was free, we would have a lot less problems with over population (feral critters, people who can't afford vet bills, etc...). But there is no accounting for careless breeders or other people that just don't give a **** either. Society isn't perfect.

Of all the livestock, horses seem to be the one (in this country) most avoided as a potential food source. I know that overseas buyers go to our auctions to buy horses for human consumption, & for a while as least, wild mustangs were used to make dog food. Why couldn't we take those destined for slaughter & use them for ourselves (if we wanted) or for pet food? I get attached to horses just as much as pets, but if so many go to auction & many of those go to slaughter, why not. If I liked horse meat or (more likely) wanted meat for pet food, I would be more likely to go get a cheep horse from a sale barn (or save from a slaughter house before kill), keep it long enough to make sure it was healthy or fatten if in starveing condition, then slaughter for pet food. With an animal that large all meat could be ground for easy handling, plus you have bones for dogs, & the hide could be made into rawhide chews. Very little if anything would go to waste (even blood could be dried to make blood meal for the garden). Certainly this is an option to eating pets (or makeing pet food out of them), but I wouldn't rule out the option of useing a pet as food in an emergency or takeing an old animal that you were going to put down anyway, (unles it was sick) to put an end to the pain of old age & put them down without poison so you could use it as food for another pet (ground & mixed maybe). I would more likely butcher a barn pet (sheep, goat, calf etc...) before I would my dog (mostly because my dogs are house dogs) but both would have been pets & I still would be left with the choice, "what's more important to me, my pets or my familey?"

There are also incinerators made to handle pet/human remanes (without all the pollutions they use to put out), different sizes for different occupations (human size for funeral parlors, smaller for vets/pounds to handle common pet sizes). Instead of haveing pet semmitaries (sp) the land could be used for other things. Let the dead animal go through an incinerator (ash should be purged of any disease) and let people have a small head stone or plaque & maybe a picture to remember the pet by, ashes can be put anywhere in ground (or not). If this idea is followed maybe some of the funeral funds could be used to make pet birth control &/or vet bill for getting pets fixed cheeper if not free to those that need it most.

This is just my some of my ideas. I'm not trying to force them on anyone. Take them or leave them but please I hope no one takes offence of them.

-- animalfarms (jawjlewis@netzero.net), December 07, 2001.

Oy vey!Here I sit, bawling my eyes out after reading Bernice's post about her goat. Oh yes, I've said good-bye to many pets and I still miss them..

NOW! May I make a suggestion!? As I posted in another thread, I canot justify spending money on neutering/spaying my outside cats. So...everyone who wants me to do so may send their donations to Ken. When Colorie,Funny Face,Black Nose, White Face,Puffball,Q Tip,Pixie, Jock,The Two Blacks,Brown Girl Kitty,and Pixie's Baby are all fixed, we can move on to another poster with cats. Please realize this could go on forever and be very costly. Or, we can move on and find another subject.....

-- Ardie /WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), December 07, 2001.

Yeah that link is way out there alright. I doubt I would have posted it. But it's nothing so serious that I'd be outraged at Bren for posting it. The internet is full of much worse. It's up to you to look at what you want and ignore the rest. Nobody forced you to click on that link and read it. It's clearly satire that was written hundreds of years ago. As far as children reading it- No child that isn't mature enough to understand things like that should be on the internet unsupervised. The net is full of things much much worse and they can be lead to those things from many 'family' sites. I don't let my children have unsupervised free reign on the net on any website even childrens sites. Maybe I will when they are in high school. It's a shame that people here can't discuss a valid topic without getting emotional and dramatic.

We had goats on the farm. We didn't eat them. They were pets and occasionally milk and 4-h project. BUT, lots of people do eat goat. Here in the area where I live now most goats are for meat and there's alot of them. For those of you with goats, are you realistic enough to know that many millions of people eat goat? Does that bother you as much as the fact that millions of people eat cat? You do realize that in other parts of the world, people would probably look at some things you do on average and be shocked just as much as you are in shock that people eat cats.

We also bred and sold AKC registered Boxers. It was fairly profitable at that. But, I can look back and admit that in doing that we were part of the problem. It seems kind of silly to churn out dogs while so many are being thrown away. It's not easy to admit but selfishness and greed has something to do with it. I wouldn't do it again. I don't condemn anyone else for that, all I say is look at the issue from all sides. Don't complain about the problem when you are a factor in it.

If you don't eat any meat whatsoever I can respect that fully. You're able to make a valid point AND support it. All animals can be cute, have personalities and feelings, even cows, pigs and chickens. But to eat certain types of meat and yet condemn others for their meat of choice is somewhat hypocritical and close-minded. Just because you prefer chicken and can't imagine eating cat doesn't mean it's ok to impose your choices on others or call them sick. I think eating lobster is pretty gross myself. It could seem kind of cruel to throw a live animal in boiling water. Since I eat other animals I'd be a hypocrite if I went around telling lobster eaters that they're sick and cruel and should not eat those poor harmless lobsters.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 07, 2001.

Ardie, such cute names ; ) But I'm curious... Q-tip??

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 07, 2001.

I think that if you own an animal, you should have it neutered or spayed. If you want more, there are plenty for adoption.

I noticed something, a few of the people who objected to this thread kept coming back and reading and posting again....so which people are the ones who really want to antagonize? Just like everything in the world, if you don't share opinions, you are free to not read them rather than attack those who do.

Have a nice day (or don't, it's YOUR decision)

-- Laura (lucky1s@mcmsys.com), December 07, 2001.

My point in posting the link to the original "A Modest Proposal" was to show that this thread is alluding to a historical literary piece. It was meant to be purely educational (I thought if someone had never heard of Swift's piece, they would like to see the actual work as opposed to taking my word for it) and was not meant to offend or gross people out or in any way endorse any of these (satirical) arguements. I was only trying to provide people with a means to "get" Rebekah's original post. I'm really surprised about how some have chosen to react to this.

-- Bren (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), December 07, 2001.

Well, if good working Border Collies are so easy to find in the pound, then why do I always have a waiting list? I guess the next time some sheep or dairy folks call and need a pup, I can direct them to the pound huh? I mean, what would it matter if the pup was half chow or half pit bull anyway. Would it matter to the baby lambs?

If you needed a serious working dog, would you get one from the pound for about the same price you can get a registered one, and see the parents work? And yes, I know all about all the rescues, but we weren't talking rescue, we were talking pound.

Saying we don't need breeders is just crazy. Most of the dogs in the pound are mixed breeds. Breeders always help find dogs homes too you know. I've placed many that weren't mine into homes, and search the net every day for free BC's needing homes. I always run out of pups long before I run out of folks needing one. I help folks find BC pups and adult dogs almost every day. It dosen't matter if they are my pups or not.

What about all the pups bred for work with special needs? Get rid of those too? Labs and Goldens having litters on purpose so the pups can be guide dogs, and hearing dogs? Police dogs? Beagles? All hunting dogs too? Dogs are a special part of our lives, and allot of them contribute great work, and are bred to do just what they do best. Don't you all watch Animal Planet, golly.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 07, 2001.

Rebekah is obviously a member of P.E.T.A. or HSUS, whose main goal, with their 12 step program, is to get all critters away from humans.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), December 07, 2001.

Isn't this Jonathan Swift one and the same as the Jonathan Swift who wrote Gulliver's Travels? Or am I totally confused here?

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), December 07, 2001.

No, you're right, Cindy.

-- Bren (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), December 07, 2001.

And Dave, forgot to say that I've heard Boxers are the all time best dogs for families with kids, protection in the house, and just plain very good dogs to have around if you are looking for a house dog.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 07, 2001.

I don't think anyone in this thread said we should do away with all breeders. Specialized breeding like you mentioned makes up a very small percentage. You could also present a pretty good case that the registrars like AKC have ruined many a fine breed. Breeding working dogs, police dogs, etc is fine but I'd venture to say that the bulk of professional breeders are doing it for the money, selling as pets and showdogs.

We had a working border collie on our farm. I have no idea if he was purebred or what his lineage was as he came from the Amish family on the next farm over. It wouldn't have mattered because he was a great farm dog. I've also seen many mixed breeds that were fine well-tempered dog. Just because a dog has papers doesn't mean it's better. In most cases there's nothing wrong at all with mixed breeds.

I would give a chow/pit mix pup the same chance I'd give a dog with papers. No offense but you could easily take a registered border collie and raise it to be a mean uncontrolable killer. Papers from the AKC or whatever don't mean as much as training and the enviroment it's raised in.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 07, 2001.

I've never kept dogs in the house but my experience with Boxers is I wouldn't recommend one for that. I'd go more with a lab, collie or mixed breed. Boxers are protective though. Almost all I encountered were fine around kids but I have seen a couple that were violent and should have been put down. I was attacked by one that belonged to someone else. I've never been attacked by any other dog. Shortly thereafter it violently attacked the owners wife and had to be put down. And it was purebred akc registered.

We could never trust our boxers around the cats and goats. Most people I talked to shared the same opinion. I'm sure there are exceptions though.

The main reason I don't care for boxers is they slobber a whole lot and most are hyper compared to other dogs. Plus it's kind of silly to crop a dogs ears and dock their tails just for show.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 07, 2001.

But Ardie, if you had spayed/neutered the initial cats, they wouldn't have multiplied so, isn't it cheaper in the long run to control the population initially, than to feed all the offspring that results? Cat food ain't cheap, and unlike the vet bill, is required each and every day for many years.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), December 07, 2001.

I am NOT member of PETA, I abhor them. Hardly think I'd be raising, milking, and butchering goats if I was.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 07, 2001.

I don't have AKC Border Collies, won't breed to them, but I've helped find homes for them. I don't believe in the AKC Border Collie, it's a different dog than working BC's. It's a Barbie Collie.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 07, 2001.

Dave, Q-Tip is a very laid back tomcat who is mostly grey striped exept for the tip of his tail which is white. That cat is so lazy that a female would have to rape him to get him to do what is neccessary. Come to think of it, very few of my cats reproduce well. I strongly suspect it is heredity. My three original kittens didn't do well, but the cats from across the road took care of it well enough.

-- Ardie/Wi (ardiexxxx@hotmail.com), December 07, 2001.

Something my dad used to say: Too many cats, too few recipes. Hee hee.

-- Rebekah in Canada (rebekah_swinden@hotmail.com), December 07, 2001.

Ardie, I've also seen unaltered tomcats that were laid back like that. Not every unfixed male cat will fight and run around breeding. I'm not as creative as you with names. The last cat I had I named 'kitty'. The last dog I owned was simply named 'dog'. People would say to me, "doesn't he have a name?" I'd say, I don't know, he never told me. ; )

-- Dave (something@something.com), December 07, 2001.

Dave, I've had quite a few silly names for my cats. I remember Duh very well. Poor thing looked like a Duh! One day my DD called me to say that there was a dead cat by my house in the road. I went and looked and called her to tell her it was,indeed, Duh. It had the same expression dead as alive!

We also had one that was named Butt Ugly because,well, it was really butt ugly. I can't remember but I think it committed suicide.

I noticed today that there is a beautiful orange-and-white half-grown cat hanging around. I bet it was a drop-off. It's name is Loud Mouth cause it really has a loud voice.

Have a good weekend everyone!

-- Ardie/Wi (ardie54965@hotmail.com), December 07, 2001.

Just as a comment, a lot of the people who routinely eat cats and dogs become sick to their stomach at the thought of eating milk that's been deliberately made rotten (we call it cheese).

A lot of our reactions to things are culturally ingrained.

Another comment: I knew a girl who ate their much beloved family cat. She (very young) and her family lived in Holland during the second World War. Got to the stage where there just were NO other food possibilities, and hadn't been for days, and the children had to have food, so her father did what was necessary.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), December 07, 2001.

I am truly surprised that anyone would post such sickening ideas to the Countryside Forum. I thought this Forum was to help each other in their walk to "get beyond the sidewalks". Surely, Rebekkah has never felt any love from an "animal". I am putting quotes around animals, as the so called "animals" I know and love and have loved, show more love than most humans I have ever encountered! They are as our Creator made them, without sin, and they sure do show that loving side. I'm sorry for anyone who has nothing better to do than write such garbage!

-- Carole / Wisconsin (coverga@bminet.com), December 07, 2001.

ok now, this is getting ridiculous... Carole, based on what you just posted could one assume you do not eat any meat whatsoever? What about leather shoes or any other animal products? Rebekah made some very valid points and doesn't deserve these attacks from close-minded irrational people that just can't face the reality that yes millions of people eat animals that you just so happen to look at as pets.

Her suggestion of unwanted dogs and cats being used in pet food is already in use. Maybe you should open your eyes, perhaps you're feeding your own pets some of that.

Just because your culture doesn't eat a particular food is no reason whatsoever to claim a different culture is sick and wrong. Statements like yours insult my intelligence and worse insult some very nice people I have met that just happen to eat differently than you. Since you offered nothing to dispute what's been said, I assume your intention was only to attack.

I can't respond to anything else on this topic without repeating myself so have at it. Go ahead and be unrealistic and pretend that your beliefs and cultural standards apply to the whole entire world. Send yourself into a tizzy over all you want.

-- Dave (something@something.com), December 07, 2001.

Oh my goodness.............sweet Rebekah, this has got to be the funniest thread in a long time!!!!

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 07, 2001.

Carole dear, this is meant as Jonathan Swiftian type satire, remember English literature?

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), December 08, 2001.

Am a new reader to this sight and hoping to learn more about country living. But this much I can tell some of you. If you don't know the value of the companionship of a dog or cat and think they would serve to make a good meal, then no amount of explanation is going to ever do it. This post is not satire; it is sick.

-- Maureen Cunningham (volfamily52@aol.com), December 08, 2001.

lighten up new people........Rebekah is a really neat gal who values and loves her animals.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 08, 2001.

Maureen, I disagree. As a new reader to the site, you don't know the context. In recent months, a lot of people have joined us who don't yet know the realities of farm life. On certain subjects, they are still overly emotional about things that must be done, or don't know the full context of what and why and how and the REAL results. Most recently there were a series of threads that covered the subject of desexing animals (pets as it happened), and doing it yourself, and the cost of having it done professionally, and the feral animal situation that results from not desexing certain animals if they're not needed for breeding. A number of these threads degenerated into flame wars, whereas similar subjects twelve or eighteen months ago were handled dispassionately as a simple exchange of information.

Now, satire is never going to solve a problem. However, if it gets people thinking about the problem, it may get the problem solved indirectly. Rebekah is a nice person, and I hope relatively fireproof, so she took on the role of Jonathan Swift to get people thinking about a problem without getting caught up in personal recrimination (except about her, but that's what she took on). She's probably still alternately giggling and fuming about what it all evoked. Rebekah has probably lightning-rodded a lot of the heat in this subject, and created a situation where people will have worked out a lot more of their excess emotions and be able to think about these problems in a rational manner. That's roughly what Jonathan Swift was trying to do with HIS "Modest Proposal" (or "Gulliver's Travels", come to that) so long ago too.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), December 08, 2001.

What does this have to do with homesteading? I'll tell you.

Homesteading is about living a sustainable lifestyle. I raise and breed dairy goats, a pasttime which I pursue mainly for the companionship of the animals, which are very dear to me. It is a fact of life, that in order to produce respectable amounts of milk, and to be able to show the goats (which helps to pay for their keep), the goats have to be freshened every year. It's another fact of life, that to freshen and come into milk, the goat has to have kids. Goats usually have twins or more. This means that a herd of twelve does and two bucks can quickly become a herd of 24 does and fourteen bucks, or even more! Overcrowding causues a lot of problems, I simply cannot keep them all.

What to do with all these goats? If, as some of the people here seem to think we should, I leave all the buck kids intact and try to find good pet homes for all the kids, several things will occur:

• I'll spend a lot more money keeping and feeding these goats than I'll ever get back from them, before they finally go to their homes.
• Many of them will not get a home, it would be difficult to give 24 goats away to *good* homes.
• The cute little buck kids will end up being abused and neglected as they grow older and come into rut.
• Oh, and if those cute little bucks aren't disbudded, they'll gorw horns, develop a bad attitude, and hurt or maim children and their owners.
• The local market for goats will be flooded- I'd have to sell the goats so cheaply as to devalue them- for years maybe, since the goats that have been placed in 'good homes' will quickly reproduce.
• Lastly, goats will cease to be a fun, practical occupation, I'd get burned out and send most or all of them to the auction. Sad but true, it happens a lot!

Now consider this: Goats have one birth with only two kids a year. Cats and dogs will easily produce two litters a year, an average of 8-12 kittens or puppies per year!! How sustainable is it, to expect to find good homes for puppies and kittens, where they will be taken to the vet every single time they need a shot, to be fixed, or worming, and so on. Folks, it simply isn't going to happen! And if each cat or dog lives for 7-8 years and each one gets a *good* home, (remember, only people who can provide a *good* home get to have pets) how many cats and dogs will each person own? How many new ones will they have to take on each year? For those of you who thought I was so cruel to write this, please tell me what you would suggest?

Back to the goats. As I said, I keep the goats because I love them. I also keep them because they are a practical, producing animal. They provide, milk, manure for the garden, and meat. Yes, I love them, but yes, I eat them (the excess buck kids). They are treated kindly right up until the time when they die. Animals have no sense of the future. They only know what they are feeling at the present. The fact that they might die tomorrow just doesn't occur to them. What does bother them, is to be staked out on a chain, neglected because that formerly cute buck kid is now so smelly that nobody will pet or even go near him.

Dogs and cats are even less sutainable than goats. Their manure is a hassle to deal with and no good for the garden. Nobody milks them, and few people eat them. They are even less sustainable if they require the condition of top notch veterinary care. How is it less cruel to send formerly loved pets to an animal shelter to be euthanized? And then the dead bodies are simply to be buried somewhere or incinerated? What a waste! If they are going to die either way, why would utilizing the meat be so awful?

Get mad if you like. I'm just trying to think about ways that keeping pets could be made more sustainable for homesteaders.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 09, 2001.

The only objection I have had about Rebekah's post is that it would really upset some children. Children read this forum. I know my granddaughter knows that both her mother and I read it. If she would have read this, she would have been REALLY upset! She dearly loves all her animals and has been raised to take good care of them.

We should remember that this forum is for everyone...all ages, creeds and lifestyles. At least I thought it was. God bless!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), December 09, 2001.

and when does one start teaching children the responsibility for their actions? as in letting fluffy out of the yard by mistake, or allowing fido out of the yard to "be free"? should everything that we dislike be hidden a child? as in many third world countries eat dogs and cats.

I am for eating them! cats are supposed to taste like rabbit, wht are dogs supposed to taste like...Chicken??? ROFL!

Rebekah...you go girl!!!!

-- lurkylu (lurkylu@yahoo.com), December 09, 2001.

Meat rabbits, meat chickens, meat cats. Maybe a money maker! JUST KIDDING!!

-- cowgirlone (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), December 09, 2001.

This is not a children's forum. Children who are young enough to be upset by this post - which is VERY well written and by the way, great job Rebekah! - shouldn't be using the internet without parental supervision.

This is called satire. If you're too young to know what that is, look it up! If you still don't understand, ask your parents who should be sitting right there beside you as you're reading this. If they don't understand the meaning of satire either, then God help you!

If you're offended by this post, move on to the next one. Try to understand that the entire world does not have to cater to your likes and dislikes, and that different people like different things. Try not to take EVERYTHING so seriously!

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), December 10, 2001.

My my, aren't we getting a wee bit testy?! All this time I thought this was a family/homesteading forum for the exchange of thoughts, opinions and perspectives. I've done without your approval of my opinions for well over fifty years, and I will do so for another fifty.

I've made an effort to post my opinions in a polite, kindly manner and I will continue to do so. God bless!

-- Ardie/WI (ardiexxxxx@hotmail.com), December 10, 2001.

I still think it is sick too. One thing that goes along with the food chain is that we are not supposed to eat animals that eat other animals. Would you really want to eat a cat who dined on rats? That is just disgusting. Bears, dogs, coyotes, wolves, all eat other animals. We are supposed to stick to the grazing animals, and not eat carnivores. Oh yeah, chickens, well I don't eat our chickens. If you want to feed yours guts or grain that's your choice I know. Think about it, are you sure that meat is really well done?

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 10, 2001.

Some people just don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of making moral/ethical decisions for everyone else. If one believes that they should not partake of carnivores, it is fully their right to do so. However, they do NOT possess the right to tell any other human being on earth that they should hold the same opinion.

-- Earthmama (earthmama@yahoo.com), December 10, 2001.

Cindy in KY, I too, eat only vegetarian animals. But not everyone does. Do you eat pork? Pigs are not vegetarian.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 10, 2001.

Hmm, only 'grazers'? so giraffe, elephant & rino are ok?

hmm,fish is out.

& all fowl would be out- bugs-other birds -mice-snakes are in their diet. bees eat rotten meat, is their honey/barf out to? i've heard horses will snap up baby chicks on occaision.

all free range grazers eat insects & parasites mostly by accident but what you can't see won't hurt you, eh?

Pluhese, meat is meat from where/who ever it comes from. [tho stan, there is a bit of worry over consuming monkey long term, only 3% diff. in dna, so high risk of disease.]

I see no differance in raising a german shepard, a fallow deer, a goat, an eel, a snail ,a pig, or an emu for consumption.

the shepard will bond/form a pack with you learn verbal & hand commands, so will the deer & goat, the eel will come when called to feed, a pig can take up to a third grade education. uh, emu, uh, they can out stare any human?? and snails are great little composters.

But ms. rebekah, i would dispute your definition of indias holy cows. that institution was started when the educated saw that cattle were eating grain that could be better used as human food. And cattle were better utilized in that climate & limited grazing as milk producers.

so that the needs of a few rich herd owners would not outweigh yhe needs of entire villages need for clean water & tillable land .

-- bj pepper in C. MS. (pepper.pepper@excite.com), December 10, 2001.

uhh I was gonna leave this thread alone but.. BJ, I hear what you're saying and agree but I'm wondering, "a pig can take up to a third grade education"???? ; )

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 10, 2001.

Dave, I've also heard pigs are smart, but didn't know they were that smart. As a matter of fact, I've got a really smart dog, and forget about the children reading this, I'm not letting my dog near this post! He's likely to get nervous when I hunt around the kitchen for something to fix for dinner! :)

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), December 10, 2001.

Rebakah, we raised our pig on pears and garden produce, corn and grass clippings. I would never throw a pig a dead chicken. I really don't like much pork if at all. Beef and Deer is so much better. Hey, but you know, it's just me and my own opinion and the way me, myself and I see things we eat. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to eat, who said I was.

And BJ, you know what I meant, I was speaking of mammals, I thought we all were speaking of mammals.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 10, 2001.

Yup, hamlet & omelet[univ. illinois] play video games for m&ms. w/ joysticks & the games get harder as they go. Pigs are ranked the 4th smartest animal on the planet: human, primate, dolphin/whale, pig! Mind you there is a BIG gap on the list after primates.

can't find the referance for third grade education, but I know it was not from an article critical of the education system!

-- bj pepper in C. MS. (pepper.pepper@excite.com), December 10, 2001.

Oh Annie, you're sooo funny! I literally laughed out loud!! Thank God we still have our sense of humor!

-- Ardie /WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), December 10, 2001.

Thanks ms.cindy for taking my elbow jab to your ribs so well!

i did not know you were refering to only mammals, [yikes chicken have teats! more info for your article ken!] sorry ms. cindy couldn't resist.

you only refered to how people should not eat predators, i was pointing out in my own strange primative way, that many animals are predators or at least omnivores.

Remember, plants eat everything. That's why i'm a vegetarian, i want to be at the top of the food chain after all! ;)

I find it hard to swallow the presumption that one animal is good to eat yet another is not. My point is that as long as the animal was raised healthy , does not share human dna or have any other health related prohibitions [heavy metals, etc.] i feel it is fair game for you omnivore humans.

If big brown eyes & the ability to play catch are anyones' criteria for defining a pet animal over a food animal. i propose that they are going to have to shorten their list of meat animals considerable when they meet a few more of the animals in person, that they have only met sliced so far! :o

-- bj pepper in C. MS. (pepper.pepper@excite.com), December 10, 2001.

Rebekah,

As I read your post I kept my tongue firmly planted in my cheek as a smile decorated my face.

The responses are as could be expected.

It is so hard to eat something we give a name to, child or pet....

-- LBD (lavenderbluedilly@hotmail.com), December 10, 2001.

I remember reading Swifts proposal in one of my college classes, but it wasn't English lit, I think it was in a science class or history class, when I read it I thought the guy was whacked. He was just trying to make a point by startling some upper-class folks into reality. He wanted to shock them into doing something about the poor people who were having babies and prostitutes who were having babies that they could not afford. He wanted the rich people to do something about the situation, not just stand about moaning about all of those retched dirty poor folks who just keep having unwanted babies. In the poor countries they have more children because they use the children as extra hands to help the family which causes an endless cycle.

-- Vanessa (tvhayes@aeneas.net), December 11, 2001.