Texas is not the SOUTH!greenspun.com : LUSENET : MATH Plus One : One Thread |
Okay someone recently got me into this conversation where they thought Texas was the South. uh NO! Well it's been 6 years since I've been to TExas so I couldn't fully explain the reasons why Texas isnt' the south other than "IT ISN"T!!!!"Actually I did the they didn't fight the Civil War (which I dont' remember if they did or not but this person wasn't bright enough to call this bluff so it's okay)
So. For the education of Yankees everywhere that want to include everything that isn't New England as THE SOUTH! Go on. Tell em!
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Weeeeeell, it depends on what you consider the South. The Deep South? Well, of course not. But East Texas and West Louisiana are pretty similar in culture and enviornment.Texas as a whole, no. It's Texas. But you might find some debs in Dallas who might take exception to not being called Southern.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Oh, and yes, Texas was very much part of the Confederacy.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
"Southerners" in Texas are posers. It isn't the South. Texas is big enough that some parts have a Midwestern flavor (Amarillo, Witchita Falls, even D/FW to a certain extent), a lot of it is Southwestern (like where I grew up), and there's a lot of Tejano, which is extremely cool. But the South? Not unless you're trying to do some goofy "Gone With the Wind" affectation...
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
In the case of Texas, being in the Confederacy and fighting in the Civil War are perhaps two different things. I don't believe Texas had a lot to do with the war itself. My junior high in Odessa was named after one of the few Confederate officers from Texas, John B. Hood. Ever heard of him? Exactly...
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Texas did fight in the Civil War for the South, and to some that's all the qualification we need. We were part of the Confederacy - the Confederate flag is one of the famous SIx Flags that have flown over Texas, and still flies in many places in Texas, including on the University grounds. The Confederate seal is mounted on the front of our state capitol. The doors of many major Texas buildings, including the State Capital and the Main Building at the University of Texas, face south......though, regionally, most people consider us the Southwest.
Most Texans consider themselves "Texan" before they consider themselves "Southern" - but we do consider ourselves Southern. It can never be said that Texas doesn't exhibit a Southern sensibility.
Screw, the Dallas debs - I can think of girls from every part of the state - and boys too - who would take offense at being considered otherwise.
This all boils down to is that Texas is the South. Nationally, we might not fit the julep-sippin' hoop-skirt-wearing antebellum image of the South (although I can name a few several hundred members of the Kappa Alpha Order that would disagree)
...but I don't think that northern Virginia or southern Florida does either, n'est-ce pas?
A state, and its people can be many things. And, the citizens of Texas are Texans, Americans, and Southerners.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
I suppose it depends on which Texan you ask...
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
And, I would respectfully like to point out a couple of things:1. Rob is right that Texas is so big that many regions are completely different in culture.
2. I think that the perspectives on this are going to be informed by many different things, especially perspectives that have been shaped and colored by long stints in other places that aren't Texas.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
I do believe I felt exactly the same way long before I moved away and allowed my thinking to be poisoned by all these damned yankees...
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
First, I love Pineapple.Second, it depends on what you consider the South. I don't think Virginia, or even North Carolina are Southern in the sense of New Orleans and Alabama. But some people would think that's crazy.
Then again, there are some people who think Kentucky and West Virginia are the South. And if you think that, then so is Southern Ohio...
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Having spent my entire life in one of the two places up for discussion, I can tell you for a fact that Texas is not a Southern state (especially Dallas - and please, southern belles in Dallas? Nevah met one. And I would know).
I was a Southerner living in Texas. Texas is its own thing. I loved living there (not so much Dallas, but everywhere else I went), and now that I'm back over in beulah-land, I can say with renewed certainty that its very different.
East Texans really think they're Southern, but come on. Have you ever been to Nagadoches?
As for that War Between the States thing, you'll have to ask The MOC. He will get historical on y'all's asses.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Rob, I wasn't speaking to you specifically. I don't know where Melissa is from, but I'm pretty sure she hasn't been here her whole life. I know that T and both Hannahs lived here but moved away years ago. AB and Allison are really from "Southern states," but do/did live here at some time. I just wanted to point out that perspectives will be colored by different experiences.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
"Texas is not the South," I said. "Texas is in the West." -- from The Revolution of Little Girls, which takes place mostly in South and North Carolina.But then, there are people who'll say that Atlanta is no longer the South.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Heh, I know, I was mostly kidding. I think most people in this part of the country (New England) see Texas as Western more than anything else. They perceive GWB as a crazed cowboy rather than a retarded, shit-squishing hick. Personally, I think, why can't he be both?
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Texas is NOT the West. I will defend that till the day I die. Texas is Texas. Really, that's the only answer we'll all agree on.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Another though: what is the opposite of "Southern," if Texas is not?I've obviously misunderstood the question, for even as I have pointed out that Texas is not the "Deep" or "Old" South in the same way Louisiana and Tennessee and Alabama are, with the magnolias everywhere and "I don' know nothin' 'bout birthin' no babies!" and Civil War recreationists with the muskets,
Texas doesn't want to be all that, and still considers itself part of the South.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Hannah lived here but moved away years agoI wanted to get all offended by that, but then I realized it's true. Sob.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Really, that's the only answer we'll all agree on.You are so right, HB, and I am about to go give myself a time-out because I sit there on my site and say "I'm not all Yay! Texas! Yay!",
then I sit here like I don't have 100 other things to do and let myself get all worked up and sputtery over the idea that Someone Out There wants to discredit our role in the Confederacy.
What. Ever. I'm retarded, and Bush sucks no matter whether you consider Texas the South or part of Central America.
So, carry on, you rational people.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Aw Al, why you gotta be bringing up Nagadoches like that?
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Now, I said I was done, but I know yall are meaning, "Nacogdoches?" Home of the lovely Stephen F. Austin State University? Where cow-tipping is an intramural event and a membership in the Klan comes free with an 18-hour enrollment?Okay, I have friends that went to SFA. I'm going to hell for that. It's just a manifestation of my embarrassment of much of the white culture in East Texas.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
My BROTHER went there and that's what I get for copying Al's spelling.Dayum.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
I'm from Arkansas and Arkansas considers itself the south but it considers Georgia and Alabama are considered the DEEP SOUTH! They like to make that distinction. There are Texans who like to consider Arkansas "north Texas" which is fighting words in Arkansas but that's another story.Texas is too big to be considered anything. I think I referred to it as its own country in the conversation. There's no label for Texas.
AB in her own journal says Texas is not the South.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Melissa: while I do consider AB the end-all, be-all on most everything else -- I do think that, as I pointed out, there are many perspectives here, and one is no more correct than another.Also, we consider Arkansas "North Texas" because that is land that Texas -- the country -- used to own, just like Oklahoma. I like to tell people that the only reason we gave it all up was to have a prettier shape-state.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Before I go into this, I just want to say, PG, I love you. Now. Here is the truth, in my mind (and which is right):I am from Louisiana. Louisiana = the South.
Now I live in Texas. Texas = Not the South.
I don't care how many perspectives you give it, it ain't. It ain't, ain't, ain't.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
PG, I have only made 2 posts in this whole thread. I'm not sure why you are getting all antsy on me about there are lots of perspectives on this one when your tone screams "and you are WRONG Melissa!!!" I just wanted the perspective of people who I know have lived in Texas, both native Texans and immigrants (heh immigration to the country of Texas). You are obviously angry with me. That was never my intention.Arkansas was part of Texas a long freaking time ago and a certain amount of the Texas population needs to get over it. It's like certain Southerners still getting all nostalgic over the Civil war. (you weren't alive then and WE LOST!!) It's over gone. Texas can't take Arkansas back now and quit trying to buy our (Arkansas) water and other natural resources. You gave it up! HA HA HA (yeah I remember Texas)
Texas is too big to be anything. It's an entity in and of itself. There are the debs who want to be old school gentile South. There's the Cowboys who want to be part of teh old West. There's a music scene in Austin that wants to be the coolest thing in the whole US of A. You can't pigeonhole Texas. Thats' why I'm always screaming. TEXAS IS NOT THE SOUTH!
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Melissa, please, girl. You know PG ain't mad at nobody. And if she's calling anybody out, it'll certainly be me for my telling her she's all wrong and whatnot.And she can bring it.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
For that matter, I always refer to Texas as "The Republic" in my journal...
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
My mother, who grew up in the southeastern corner of Virginia, in the mountains, as a coal miner's daughter, would be shocked and dismayed to find out she's not Southern. Southern, like Texan, is many, many things. It is moonshine and mint juleps, it is coal mines and cotton fields, it is debutantes and barefooted rednecks. It is a mindset as well as a region.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Wow, I obviously so do not need to be a part of this thread any longer.See, Melissa, what I meant to say (and thought I did say) personally to you was that, despite your implication that AB is the authority, there are several of us here with opinions that we consider just as valid.
Whether or not I think you're wrong -- which, incidentally, I do -- was not a part of that post, nor was it meant to be. My opinion of your opinion simply isn't relevant.
Now, on the other hand, I happened to notice you sort of.... um... fly off the handle regarding my little joke about the former ownership of the land that is now Arkansas. We used to own part of Colorado and all of Oklahoma too. It's no big deal. We don't rag on Arkansas anymore than we rag on OK and CO for the same thing. The mental culture of Texas never claimed we didn't brag.
And, as the old Texas saying goes, "If ya done it, it ain't braggin."
So, don't get all wadded about this perceived Ark./Texas rivalry. It simply isn't there.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
I never said there was a rivalry. Not flying off the handle. Just your perception.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
you're all wrong. Oklahoma rules!Boomer Sooner! Boomer Sooner!!!
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
No, Maryland rules. We're both North and South. It just depends on where in Maryland you are.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Heavens, how did I miss this thread?Naked Hannah (my true love) and I have had this discussion. I was born in Arkansas, lived in Tennessee (Memphis), I lived in Texas, Houston and Galveston and all those in between, and then in Atlanta.
I'm pretty confident in the fact that I'm southern through and through. When I lived in Texas, I still considered myself part of the south, but when I moved to Georgia, I knew that Texas was not The South, but was Texas.
The difference is all in the accent and the attitude. I have always been Southern to the bone, but living in Texas was not uncomfortable. It was similar enough, with the eccentricities and pride of location, but different enough for me to know that it was not The Same.
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
hrmph. lived in Tx all maah life. now, I guess I sort've know the difference, but I still say I live down south. south eastern to be exact...I mean, we are't sipping sweet tea out on our porches or nothin' like that over here from what I can see (at least not in Houston), but I still notice more of the southern accent here than when I go up north to visit the grandparents in Ohio...all perspective I guess.
Tx is like a mixture of cultures though, soooo I guess it is its own thing...
-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001
Golly, gee... Don't you guys watch television? Texas isn't the south or the west. It's like a whole other country. Well, at least that's what the ads say. :-)Of course, during the days of the old Southwest Conference, I had a poster with the Arkansas Razorback logo and the words, "This is your brain." Just below the Hog was the UT Longhorn logo and the words, "This is your brain on drugs." heh, heh.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
during the days of the old Southwest Conference ...See, that's as good a point as any as to why Texas isn't the South. Could Texas possibly be in the SEC? No. That's just silly. When the Southwest Conference sadly died, Texas went with its more natural partners -- Oklahoma, Nebraska and the rest of the Big 12. I can't imagine the Longhorns instead facing a steady diet of Vanderbilts and Georgias.
If the state school can't possibly be in the SEC, the state's not in the South.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
FLETCH! yay! welcome! and, where's my towel???Mike. Please remember that you are fired as my Football Boyfriend. And, that said, I don't think the fact that Texas as a state has a stronger football culture than any other state in the Union* disqualifies us from being Southern.
Remember, I'm looking for anyone in this thread to tell me what it is about being Southern that Texans don't have. Is it the hoop skirts and the slaves-were-a-good-idea mentality? **
Just define it for me, and I'll answer to the best of my ability.I've never said that Texans aren't (this is the most correct quote) "a whole 'nother country."
We are. We were. It's that thing that allows us to fly our state flag at the same height as the US flag if we choose, according to national flag protocol. It's the thing that causes freaky Texan militia types to decide every few years to run a man for state office whose platform is that we secede from the Union again.I don't think the fact that Texas has a stronger state identity than any of the other 49 should disqualify us as Southern. Is being Southern about a group identity to such an extent that Texas' individuality hampers us? then, okay. We'll take that. But, if the ideals that are part of being Southern is what makes one Southern... well, we've got those. And, we fought in the Civil War for the Confederacy -- don't forget that.
* if anyone wants to argue this, we should start a whole 'nother thread, because in Texas, by the time a boy signs his recruitment papers for the NCAA, he's been playing for at least seven years. I'll give Oklahoma and Florida a close second on football-as-culture.
** I don't mean to imply that these things, especially the slave trade, define Southern culture. I know better than most that the War of Northern Aggression (hee) was not about slavery.
And hey! those of you who want to jump out and argue that? please... have taken an entire semester on Confederate History (or at least an intensive 19th Century American History) before you start talking shit. Thanks.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
Wow! I think it might just be time for someone to pass a big ol' Texas-sized bowl of Settle Down around the room...
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
I didn't know that thing about the flag. I'll have to give that a try around here, assuming that I could find a Texas flag in Connecticut.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
And hey! those of you who want to jump out and argue that? please... have taken an entire semester on Confederate History (or at least an intensive 19th Century American History) before you start talking shit. Thanks.
Whoa, dude. A lot of us have probably done that.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
Would a BA and MA in American history qualify me to start talking shit in this thread?First, I am a yankee who has lived on Virginia, Texas, and now Georgia. I think I have a good perspective on this issue because I can approach it culturally as an outsider as well as one who has gotten a good dose of different areas of the South.
But instead of spouting off on my personal opinions, let's try to look at this from an historical perspective.
First, let's put this into some context. There really is no such thing as "The South", at least culturally speaking. "The South" is more of a geopolitical label. So being Southern from Virginia or Maryland is very different from being Southern from Alabama or Mississippi, at least culturally speaking. The same can be said about Texas. Texans from Lubbock have had a much different Texan experience than Texans from San Antonio or Tyler. So, in one way, this is not a great debate, since the question is too broad. A Texan from the panhandle might not consider himself/herself nearly as Southern, if at all, as a Texan from Nacgadoches. That being said.....
Politically, Texas is very southern. This began with its involvement in the Civil War and continues up to this day. LBJ is probably the best example of this, being the most famous of the Southern Democrats (Dixiecrats) of the 20th Century. The South, including Texas, has traditionally voted as a unified block in presidential elections ever since the Civil War and will probably continue to do so, since they see their political fortunes intertwined. Whether this is still true today is a whole other debate.
Culturally, Texas is a hodgepodge. South Texas is probably more culturally tied to Mexico than the South, the panhandle is more linked to the Midwest and West. East Texas is the region than can make the best claim to being Southern, since it is the closest geographically to the South and contained the Texas cotton/slave culture.
That leaves the most difficult part, at least historically speaking, the mindset of Texans regarding their history, otherwise known and cultural or historical memory. This concept deals mainly with how a people/state/region places itself within a larger context. In this regard, I don't think Texas is very Southern. First, there is the argument that Texas considers itself the end all and be all. While it does recognize its place in the confederacy, that view takes a distant back seat to Texans viewing themselves as individuals, seperate from any other affliation.
Also, Texas, at least historically, has a closer relationship with the notions of westward expansion and change than with maintaining cultural status quo, which is a very southern attitude. Remember, The Republic was founded by individuals who felt the South didn't have much left to offer them. They were looking westward, not eastward.
So if you had to make a broad, sweeping statement, I would have to say that Texas is not part of the South.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
Also, the Civil War was about slavery.The concept that it wasn't began to be put forth by historians in the 50s, 60s and 70s who were trying to create a "new history" of the South ( see C. Vann Woodward, The Origins of the New South as a starting place)
Historiographically, however, more recent work on the South (i.e. the late 80s and 90s) has come back to the concept of the debate over slavery being the main contributing factor the outbreak of the Civil War.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
Coming from Northwest Louisiana I have to agree with AB. Texas is not the south. I can drive 30 minutes west, cross the state line, and tell I am in a different place.Also, bring on the hate, but North Carolina, Tennessee, all those places up there? Also not the south. And Florida - not the south.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
awww Meat of Cheese. That was the best most thoughtful answer. I am in awe.Eh the person I had this discussion (and why I called her a Yankee) mistaked me being from Alabama. Then when I told her ARkansas. She goes "they're all the same." and then proceeded to put Texas in with her long list of all things South. That was too broad for me to let her just go on thinking that.
JulieK. I grew up in the ArkLaMiss. Did you watch channel 10 and see where Santa was on Christmas Eve?
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
Melissa, you do know that people from the Deep South do not consider Arkansas "The South", right?I was born in Arkansas, in the Mid South.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
To clarify that, I did not grow up in Arkansas, but I was born there. I was raised in the South.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
I can't believe I missed this thread. I have nothing to say that hasn't been said, except:Y'all, my hometown is Nacogdoches. There's no call for the Nac hate. The hate hurts me. Go bash Lufkin.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
(Apologizing for the Nac bashing! I only used it as an example because of Lucinda. Trying to make that Lake Charles/ Nac comparison. Lufkin from now on.)
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
Yes Robyn I do. Even Arkansas does not consider itself the deep South and will get all feisty when called otherwise. (man my lack of Civil War knowledge will forever come back to haunt me on this board)
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
Oops sorry Julie, I should read more carefully. Northwest LA is the ArkLaTEX. Different land.
-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001
You know, when non-Texan southerners always get riled up and insist Texas isn't the South, it does raise my hackles a bit. But then I look at where they tend to be from and realize they're probably just jealous.
-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001
You know, when non-Texan southerners get riled up and insist Texas isn't the South, it does raise my hackles a bit. But then I look at where they tend to be from and realize they're probably just jealous.
-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001
You know, when non-Texan southerners get riled up and insist Texas isn't the South, it does raise my hackles a bit. But then I look at where they tend to be from and realize they're probably just jealous.I mean, it's nice enough to be Southern, but so much nicer to be Southern and Texan.
-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001
Having taken a semester on the History of the Confederacy and a semester on the History of the Old South on my way to earning a BA in American History from a university that some, at least, would call Southern, I agree with everything the MOC said.
-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001
You know, when non-Texan southerners get riled up and insist Texas isn't the South, it does raise my hackles a bit. But then I look at where they tend to be from and realize they're probably just jealous.Or maybe it's because Texans are really super jealous that they're not Southern, and thus say that they are, when the truth is:
Texas = Not the South.
Also, Texans triple-post a lot. A Southerner would never do that.
-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I never take offense when someone says I'm not a Yankee. Or a Texan.
-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001
Whoa! Note to self: no more posting on the MATH+1 while intoxicated, especially when topic is a hot one.That said, I apologize to all for the implied ranting tone of my long long post yesterday (morning at 6 am). It wasn't meant in that spirit at all, but in more of a "we're a bunch of smart people having an interesting and spirited discussion, and here's some more perspective from the mouthy Texas contingent. Um, and miss? can I have another latte? Thanks."
And by the last part of the post, I meant that I wanted to hear exactly things like what the MOC gave us -- which I found fascinating in this context, and appreciate greatly. I prefer intelligent (or at least thought-out) contribution over the uninformed flying-off-the-handle that I seemed to be inspiring earlier.
Lyn - I'm sorry about the Nac-bashing. It's just too easy. I won't do it again.
I have personally come to a conclusion on this issue. Texas is not the South. It's true that we have a more varied regional influence due to the sheer size of our land mass, and I have always been proud of that, and do not want to lump us all in one geocultural category. And, I said at one point earlier that we do have a Southern sensibility. And, I still believe that many Texans do. I think there are things about me that could be considered part of a "Southern" mentality -- which I guess might be the reason I took this thread personally: the idea that I am Texan, and Texans aren't Southern, so I am not Southern, which makes me anti-Southern, which means I am a carpet-baggin', selfish, inconsiderate, family-hatin', freeloader who does not care about my roots or whether I'm dressed right for the season.
And, I disagree lovingly with AB when she implies that Texans want to be Southern and are just jealous. We did belong to the Confederacy, so for those to whom "being Southern" is a really big deal,* they probably have the rights to claim it in arguments in lesser venues.
But I feel comfortable speaking for hundreds of thousands when I say that we would rather be Texan than anything else. Since the situation appears to be an "if/or" one-or-the-another, in a national perspective -- I would rather be Texan than Southern. That's not about jealousy. Texas doesn't need to be jealous of any other state. Being "Southern" is about a state of mind, but being Texan is about something much deeper.
I don't want to make yall think I am getting all verklempt - this isn't that. You can't advertise in Texas without selling the state. You can't succeed in politics without being "a good Texan." The flag or state outline is on everything. You can buy Texas-shaped cake pans, sunglasses, ice cube trays, and swimming pools.
This is a very heavy cultural identity, and many Texans don't realize how obnoxious it appears to the outside world. We all just assume here that people raised in other states grow up the exact same way. I was shocked to discover that my cousins in Arizona didn't have to take a year of Arizona History class in the seventh grade, and that my camp friend from Atlanta couldn't draw the state of Georgia for me, and that my college suitemate from California wasn't sure what the CA state flag looked like.
We know we're freaks. But, it's not in the wanna-be-"Southern" or intentionally egotistical way that most people seem to think. This will sound trite, but I am going to borrow a phrase from an entity that I despise and say, "from the outside looking in, you can't understand... from the inside looking out, you can't explain it."
* I mean the people who want to put stickers in the windows of their cars next to their gun racks that read "You wear your X, I'll wear mine" over a Rebel flag, or that think it's okay to belong to a country club that still won't let in anything but WASPs, or don't see a problem with chaining a black man to the bumper of a car and dragging him to his death.
-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001
You dummy. I was just kidding about that jealousy thing, trying to get Naked Hannah all riled up.But I do love it when you drunk-post.
-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001
I'll start time-stamping then, so yall can see that I am not of sound mind.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
I gotta admit - after a few conversations with friends, we've come to the conclusion that Texas is its own thing to a degree. I mean, my one friend said he'd get more upset if someone tried to mess with Texas than America - piss off america - leave Tx alone!! hee!anyway, basically I say I'm from the south simply for geographical reasons like I said before. I certainly don't really act southern mahself besides sayin' mahself...haha
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
"And Florida - not the south."Yo, I beg to differ. I'll grant that south Florida isn't Southern, but there are parts of Florida that are WAY Southern. I grew up in Florida, I have a little Southern accent (it comes and goes-- at least, I think it does), and I don't wear white shoes after Labor Day. Now, Miami may not incorporate much Southern culture, but Jacksonville (as an example) certainly does.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
"Go bash Lufkin."HA!
Having lived in Houston for eight very formative years, Atlanta for nearly eight, and New Orleans all the rest of my life, I have one thing to say:
Can you get sweet tea at any given restaurant in Texas? No, my friends, you cain't. So, there you go.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
And North Florida is definitely the south. It's a suburb of Georgia, really.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
I don't know if this should be a separate thread but I was wondering, after reading this thread, if there are anything common elements that qualify a person/region/mindset as Southern.In a graduate seminar I recently had we were discussing the slave experience in the South. Historians writing in the post war period tended to talk about the slave experience in a homogenous way, as if slavery was the same all over the South. More recent historical work, however, has emphasized that slavery was different in different parts of the South. Being a slave on a farm in Maryland was a much different experience than being a slave on a Louisiana sugar plantation.
I wonder if this holds true for other races and other times? Is the definition of "Southern" in Virginia different from the definition in Georgia or Mississippi? And even if it might be for a lot of things, are there still some common elements of "Southern-ness" that can be found in all parts of the South?
Help this Yankee out.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
As someone who lives in Redneck Hell Florida, Florida has a lot of southern things going on. It's probably like Texas where it melds a lot of different things together to form its own culture.But i have to say it definitely picked up on the Redneck glory of the South including barbeque, thick accents, the ability to wear mullets in 2001, the Jesus Freaks who want to ban Harry Potter because it's a product of the devil . . .
eh I'll shut up now before I explode or something. . .
(I wish I knew all this was going to my email. man I should read the fine print)
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
AB, I knew someone would call me on that. And I suspected it would be you.I will concede that not ALL Texans are Southern. But that Texans CAN be Southern. How's that? Like rectangles and squares.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
Hey MOC: Did you read Arguing Against Slavery? What did you think of it?The Smoker and I recently had the cause-of-the-War-of-Northern- Aggression argument. He said it was all about states' rights. And I kept saying, "Yes, but one of the rights in question was the right to enslave other human beings." And then he argued that slavery as an economic system would have died out eventually, which I don't buy.
But this could go into a whole rant about how Southern libertarianism has been infected by an inability to recognize slavery for the horror that it was, and how normally nice and unracist people like The Smoker nevertheless get sucked into making defensive minimalist arguments ("slavery wasn't that important," etc.). But that would be off-topic.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
Let me preface this by saying that I have never been to Texas.That being said I would like to address the question of exactly what makes a southerner, a southerner. I've always thought it to be a certain pride in being a southerner. Not so much your location. If you live in Texas and are proud to be a southerner you probably are. If you live in Alabama and think the south is detestable you probably wouldn't qualify yourself as a southerner and you'd be right.
I was born in Decatur, GA and raised in Tallahassee, FL. Which is about 20 minutes away from Thomasville, GA. I consider myself to be a southerner, and I'm proud to be so. I have no accent, I don't hunt or fish, and I am about as liberal as they come. Yet I do feel a sense of pride in being southern, and I embrace things southern, ie; sweet tea, fried green tomatoes, ma'am, ya'll, Creed (they are from Tallahassee as well), and most of all the friendliness of most of the natives here.
Texas to me has always seemed like a country of it's own, but the undeniable sense of pride that they all seem to have in their state is one of a kind. I've always thought of Texans as Southerners. Not because of their part in the confederacy, or their location on the map. Just because everyone I've ever met from there seems to embrace their Southerness in a way that only a Southern person can.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
Uh let me just say that BBQ is a TEXAS specialty. I just lost it about all that is Redneck Hell although BBQ is one of the good things.Never order BBQ in DC. Just don't.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
Now you got me going on the BBQ thing. BBQ isn't just a Texas thing, there's different styles of BBQ everywhere - globally even. Maybe your favorite BBQ style is Texas and they just don't do it right in DC? (Haha, I know better. You're all going to get all over me saying, "There ain't no BBQ if it ain't Texas BBQ!")I love me some Texas-style BBQ, give me some slow cooked brisket and I'm in heaven. Granted, never really having been in Texas I've probably been deprived of the REAL stuff. Santa Maria-style BBQ is to die for, but it's pretty much confined to the central coast of California.
Now I'm hungry for some Satay.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
I don't want to freak anyone out, but the best BBQ I've ever eaten was in Nebraska. I know, it makes no sense at all, but it's truth.The most notable quality of a Southerner is the friendliness, that deeply ingrained need to make those around you happy to be in your company. The old "southern hospitality" joke is more than just the idea that anyone in the south will provide you with lodging and good home cooking, it's much deeper. It's that automatic smile upon eye contact, the way that you cannot let someone wash their hands next to you in a restroom without commenting on their lovely blouse or beautiful hair cut, and the absolute certainty that if you are polite first, the recipient of your gracious manners will have no other choice than to respond in the same vein.
It's much more than that, I know, and it's certainly not exclusive to Southerners, but those are some of the qualities that MOC asked about. And I know there are exceptions, blah blah blah, but there you go.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
Uh let me just say that BBQ is a TEXAS specialty.People in Kansas City wouldn't agree.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
I haven't read Arguing Against Slavery, but I have heard of it.The argument of the economic efficiency of slavery is quite a contentious one, but I believe the current school of thought is that slavery was economically feasible.
And even if it wasn't, the argument that slavery would have "eventually" been phased out is more of an argument made by Southern apologists to try and take the focus of the cause of the Civil War away from slavery/racism. Because if it wasn't economicsally viable, why did Southerners defend it so passionately? If anything it hints at the fear that Southerners had of what would happen if slaves were freed.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
this will be my only foray into the sub-thread of slavery and the Civil War, because I disclaim all authority or the implication of such, and defer wholly to the experts on the board.but, I have never forgotten hearing that, at the commencement of the Civil War, there will still slave holdings all over the Union. And, that the industrially-based Northern economy actually relied on the Southern slave trade to succeed. Was that incorrect? That was one of the main things that led me to whole-heartedly buy what I was sold in my Civil War History class (taught, incidentally, by a left-wing gay professor from the North) -- which was that the War was fundamentally based in economic fear and states' rights, and that slavery was made The Issue because it was easy and hot.
Okay, moving on to the barbecue and speaking as a Texan -
Texas barbecue is totally different from other parts of the country. We rarely do pork, unless it's sausage - beef is the favored meat, especially brisket as Melissa mentioned -- and our sauces are tomato-based, not vinegar-based. Purists here won't even eat barbecue with sauce, actually.
But I will agree that in Tennessee and Virginia and other parts east and north of here, they have as strong a claim to barbecue as Texas. Hell, the International Barbecue Championship is held annually in Memphis. I won't say we're the best, because the regional variations and preferences are very different. And I won't purport that only Texas/the South can claim barbecue expertise, because I have heard great great things about the barbecue in Kansas City.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
Uh let me just say that BBQ is a TEXAS specialty. People in Kansas City wouldn't agree.I said BBQ is A Texas specialty. It's also a specialty in Kansas city and Memphis. There's rivalry about which is best. Now Arkansas is in the middle of all that BBQ business (want a link to a map!). I like going to the Memphis places best.
I was correcting myself in saying that it had to do with the South. Eh not really.
-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001
Pardon me from the git-go if this is long winded, but I don't get much of a chance to discuss history since finishing grad school, so this is a lot of fun for me.I'm such a history geek.
Anyway, while there were some slaves still being held in the North at the oubreak of the Civil War, the numbers were extremely small. Slavery was not an ingrained part of the the Northern economic or social system to nearly the extent that it was in the South.
The North did rely to some degree on Southern cotton for the textile mills, but Southern cotton growers made much more money by exporting cotton to England. By the 1860s as well the North was beginning to move into heavy industry, so textile mills were on the down turn. So the North did not necessarily need the Southern cotton so much that they would go to war over it.
To a certian extent, the war was about political/cultural systems. Diaries of common soldiers from both sides confirm this. Southern soldiers were fighting not to defend slavery (very few whites in the South actually owned slaves) but to protect the "Southern" way of life. It also wasn't until late in the war that Northern soldiers considered slavery an issue.
Lincoln also saw the War as a political issue. He believed that the Civil War was a test of the constitutional system of government established in 1787, especially the suboordination of states rights to those of the federal government. He felt also that if the Constitutional system of government was going to survive, states didn't have the right to leave when they disagreed with the feds.
But those are are secondary issues. The main issue is why did the South Carolina secede just months after the inauguration of Lincoln? Because it felt that Lincoln was going to begin the process of emancipation. South Carolina was one of the most virulently racist southern states at the time, with the most severe set of slave laws. They truly feared what would happen if slaves were freed.
So, really, slavery was the core issue. Although the North tried to bring them back into the Union for politcal/comstitutional reason, that wouldn't have been necessary if South Carolina hadn't seceded based on its fears about the end of slavery.
-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001
Sorry Melissa, I didn't read your post in detail and missed that you said "a" Texas speciality. Now THAT I won't argue with, obviously.This is a fascinating thread. I've spent very little time in the South and Texas so I'm learning a lot.
-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001
I only just realized that we have more than one Melissa here. Yeah.It hurts me inside to not get into the "why we had the civil war" debate, but I just can't. I barely have the energy right now to even read it and stop myself from getting het up.
I do want to point out that there is nothing sexier than a person who can talk history, even when I have problems with some of the things said. Al, you one rucky girl.
-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001
North Florida is more "Southern" than South Florida. Don't ever tell the football fans in Gainesville they're not Southern. They know better.But where the dividing line is, I'm not sure. Miami? Clearly not Southern; "openness to immigration and Hispanic influence" has historically not been a Southern thing. (It HAS been a Texan thing. Another distinction between Texan and Southern.) The West Palm/Boca/Fort Lauderdale area? Also clearly not Southern. Orlando and Tampa? Then it starts to get blurry, I think.
-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001
By the way, I'm starting a new topic for the history smack.
-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001
Yeah, yeah, Robyn. I know. He can also make cookies.
But you wouldn't want to be around when The History Channel is on.
-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001
Speaking as a New Yorker? You're all a bunch of southerners to me. And, also? You're freaking me out. Stop it.
-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001
Who let her in here? Freak.
-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001
Yeah, whatever, Southener.
-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001
Am I going to have to crochet a "No Yankees Allowed" sign to hang over this thread, Dana?Because I will. Don't test me.
-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001
AB, you can crochet?And if you do hang the sign, can I be half-allowed in?
-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001
I can make a shag rug with No Yankees. hee I'm talented.
-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001
At least we know how to get a popular thread - talk smack about Texas.
-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001
uh yeah. Most of this ended up in my inbox. It wasn't pretty y'all.
-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001
Allright... I'll give you North Florida is the South as it is an extension of Georgia. But any further down than Orlando and it is an entirely different animal.
-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001
The freaky rural areas in Florida. South. or the worst parts of the south with none of the good parts. I KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE>
-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001
Texas is Southern-flavored, but not Southern. Just as Cheetos are cheese-flavored, not actual cheese.I think the difference is language. Texans can't easily tahlk Suthin', cause they don't drawwwl, they twang. It's the difference between "Howdah, ya'll" and "How-dee, partner!". More Old-Timey Prospector than Southern Gentleman. No amount of debs and KA's can change that.
I think a lot of Texans *wished* they were "genteel" southerners and so adopted some mannerisms from them. But Texans could never escape their crass, yee-haw Nouveau Riche reputation, mostly because it's true.
To the rest of the world, we'll always be Gabby Hayes.
-- Anonymous, June 11, 2002
I refuse to be drawn back into this thread, but, emjaybee, might I infer from your last remark that you are Texan? 'cos, if not, I think your stereotypes are a little harsh.Oh, fuck. Alright, I can't resist:
I challenge anyone to find a native of Beaumont, Tyler or Longview that doesn't drawl. Granted, moving west the drawl becomes a twang, but there are so many communities in East Texas and the coastal portions east of Houston that could easily be in Arkansas or Louisiana if one didn't know better.
But, I do like that Southern-like-Cheetos analogy...
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
Here's a conversation between my co-worker and my boss the other day: CW: So, where are you from? B: The South. CW: Where? B: Texas.Uh-huh...
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
So where are Fritos from?
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
So where are Fritos from?C'mon now, Omar! I know that you must know that the Frito Bandito was from Mexico. But, he did have a twang. Or was that the barbeque Frito that had the twang?
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
but there are so many communities in East Texas and the coastal portions east of Houston that could easily be in Arkansas or Louisiana if one didn't know better.PG! Not Arkansas!
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
Ouch. Man, I sure hate to think of people putting Arkansas and Louisiana in the same group where accents are concerned.
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
Look at Texarkana, kids. The damned town is actually in both states. You can't tell me those accents up in that NE part of the state sound anything like a twang.
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
To clarify my last post: Texarkana lies both in Texas and Arkansas. And, I didn't mean to imply that I thought Louisiana and Arkansas sound the same... but that those towns in TX lying closest to the state line are practically interchangeable with counterparts on The Other Side.
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
I don't know anything about Texarkana, and frankly, I'm a little bit scared of it. It's like some alternate dimension. Now I'm in Texas! Now I'm in Arkansas! Now I'm in Louisiana! Now I'm in...shit, is that Aslan over there?I know for a stone fact that Arkansas and Louisiana differences in accent are wide and varied, though. Witness my friend from Smackover, Arkansas, who says "sprat" for "Sprite" and "happer" for "hyper." Ugh.
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
Aslan! bwahahahahaha!I know, I know. The northeast Texas / Arkansas accent is fucked UP, y'all. But, it still doesn't seem too twangy to me. Not compared to folks from Midland or San Angelo.
Here's my big faux-philosophical jingo statement:
"If America is the melting pot of the world, Texas is the melting pot of America."[Here's your sick bag. Thanks for flying Pineapple Airways!]
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
Am I from Texas? I am *so* from Texas. In my house, it was not uncommon to hear the words "gotch-eyed", "catty-cornered", and "plug- ugly." Sometimes in the same sentence.But I agree about the drawl/twang line being somewhere west of Longview. Perhaps the Piney Woods should be part of Louisiana and/or Arkansas, linguistically speaking. I went to summer camp around Lake Palestine, (that's Pal-ess-teen, ya'll), and it was nothing like any other part of Texas I'd ever been in. (and at night, in those dark woods? Creeeepy).
Perhaps East Texas should be its own state, like West Virginia.
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
Emjay, I'd be all for it if it wouldn't ruin our pretty state shape. I've said the same thing 'bout the Panhandle before.And, yes, Gabby Hayes and David Koresh have pretty much sealed our fate for anyone from other places.
-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002
Arkansas accents are completely varied within the state. People from the Ozarks do not sound like people from rural central areas, and I have yet to hear so southern an accent as in Pea Ridge, Arkansas, even though I don't really think of Arkansas when I think of the South.
-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002
