You know what I think.

What do you think?

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001

Answers

Heh, if you followed the link, I guess you know how I feel, too.

Thanks for the link, Hannah!

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001

This is a painful subject for me, but I am very much against spanking. In my experience with children (several years of work in child development and as a preschool teacher), physical discipline only seemed to teach fear of the spanker, and was more of an outlet for the hitter than anything else.

If you have ever seen the wild look of glee that comes over some individual's face while "disciplining" a child, you know the sick feeling that comes with realizing that some people are just bullying because they can.

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001

Oh, and Hannah, re what method of discipline you might use in lieu of spanks: When I was a nanny, the first thing I learned with my 2 year old twin charges was that the best way for me to punish them was to take away their hands. It sounds gruesome, but really all I did was make them stand with their hands in their pockets while they were being punished.

Hands out of the pockets and they were fiddling with buttons and picking their noses and not caring at all that they were In Trouble. Hands in the pockets and they were bored out of their sweet little blonde heads and completely contrite. It was my favorite method of "time out".

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2001

You need to understand there's a big difference between tapping the kid on the butt, and smacking him as hard as you can. If "spanking" involves using a belt or a closed fist then I am against it, because it's cruel and unusual punishment. If by "spanking" you mean just whapping the kid a little on the butt, I see no harm in that because it doesn't physically harm the child, rather the effect is mental. The child will do his best to avoid getting spanked, not because getting spanked hurts, but because it's embarassing.

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001

You say the effect is mental, and I agree. But what is the effect? What's the message?

Even if it is not painful or scarring, it's still a violent reaction, one that represents the threat of pain and humiliation. Otherwise, why would it be any different than any other non-punishing physical contact? Why would a child react differently to a "pat" on the butt rather than a high five, for example? The difference is the perceived intent and what that action represents.

I'm sorry, but it is still parenting through fear and threat. If that works for you, then you should do that. In my own parenting, I have to look for a different way.

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001

Very well articulated.

I don't remember being spanked, but I know that it happened, maybe once.

The hardest thing for me was over the summer I was a nanny for my twin 4.5 year old cousins, and I ended up following the example set by my aunt and uncle as far as discipline, which is to say that there wasn't much set up. Not the most fun thing ever, to be sure, although I did do fun stuff like the ever-popular bribe (if you x, you can watch this movie with me later, but if not, I'm going to watch it by myself).

*sigh* I'm (hopefully) years and years away from having my own children, so I won't be, y'know, making these decisions for myself for a while. But I do realize it's not easy, and I respect all of y'all who are parents. Really.

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001

Well I don't have any kids, and I haven't had any contact with any kids since I was a kid (I'm 22 now). So I'm probably not an expert. But I still think spanking is harmless. I've heard people claim that spanking a child will cause that child to be emotionally scarred for the rest of his life, and I find that really hard to believe.

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001

Spank a child, and what are you teaching her? That violence works. That physical power determines who is right, and who is wrong in a conflict. that when you don't know what else to do, you can hit someone. That the only control a parent has over them is based on physical pain. Nice lessons.

Discipline should be a positive action that teaches a child not to misbehave, instead of punishing the child's misbehavior. Spanking is often reactionary, and good parenting isn't about reacting to a child's behaviour.

I am very anti-spanking...I am sure I will find other ways to completely screw up as a parent without smacking them.

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001

My dad used to threaten to spank us with his belt, but I don't think he ever did. I know he never spanked me- he used to pull me out of bed, though, and take me downstairs and spank the sofa while I pretended to cry, to scare the daylights out of my younger sisters who would then stop misbehaving and go to sleep right quick. And my dad would make me chocolate milk. It seemed pretty fair to me.

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001

Why is it so hard to believe? The basic lesson is that if you (small person) do not do what I (big person) want you to do, then you will be hurt. It's not a lesson of right and wrong, but of power. How can that NOT be scarring?

I know the argument. "I was spanked and I turned out okay." That's swell, but I'm unconvinced. In any case, I'll elect to give my kid a slightly smaller load to bear in life by avoiding the "might is right" lesson. I'm sure I'll give her plenty of therapy fodder as it is.

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001

I'm firmly in the anti-spanking camp. First of all, I can't imagine doing it no matter how frustrated I was. I think it just humiliates kids. I also think it's a fine line between sadism and sexuality and, for some parents, that line has a tendency to blur.

I worked as an instructional aide in emotionally disturbed for awhile (teacher minus certification) while I was in college. The one thing that seems to connect most of them is physical violence in the home. They act it out on each other. In school. Anywhere.

I think there are other ways of disciplining children...ways that don't hurt. My father spanked me once. I don't remember what I was doing, but I remember being very scared. To this day, he's never admitted to my mom that he did it. If you're so ashamed you can't tell your spouse, then obviously there's something wrong with the behavior.

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2001

I think I got slapped on the hand, once, as a kid -- for coloring on the walls with crayons when I'd specifically been told not to color on the walls with crayons -- but I was never spanked.

The Smoker is pro-spanking, for what it's worth. I haven't really given a huge amount of thought to the issue; the couple times we've talked about it, I've said something like, "Well, YOU get to be the one to lay a hand on their adorable little behinds, because no way in hell am I doing it." Of course, he's got this theory that if the kid hasn't learned right from wrong by age 2, he or she never will.

Eventually? I don't think we'll end up spanking the kids. Spanking would belong in . . . a different context.

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

By age two? My kid turns two in a few weeks, and she hasn't learned not to stick food in her nose.

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

Wait, you're not supposed to stick food in your nose?

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

Yeah 2 seems young. Is that part of the whole personality-cemented-in-stone by 3 thing?

I was lucky enough to escape my childhood without a trip to the ER to retract something from my nose or ear. My neighbor put a bead in her ear (like earrings!) and once she told me about the giant claw the doctor used to get it out and small, fleeting desire I had to stick anything anywhere passed. (Shut up, you.)

Hi. I'm off-topic.

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

But spanking isn't violence, and it's not physical abuse, the effect is entirely mental. The child is afraid of spanking because it's embarassing, or because the child doesn't want mom/dad to be upset. The child isn't afraid of spanking because it hurts. (If you're hitting the child hard enough for it to hurt, then it's more than just spanking, it's physical abuse). But I totally agree that it's much more effective to reward good behavior instead of punish bad behavior.

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

I guess the real distinction is between humiliating and non- humiliating forms of punishment. For example, if a kid wet his pants, and as punishment you made him go ahead with the stain on his pants all day, that's not physically abusive, but I still wouldn't do it to a kid.

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

But isn't punishment, by its very nature, humiliating?

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

How is spanking not violent? How does it not at the very least represent violent behavior? The whole "mental" argument doesn't make sense to me. Of course it's "mental". Any effective form of violent behavior modification involves fear, involves mental processes and conditioning. You yourself use the word "afraid".

And I'm not sure that I agree that all punishment is humiliating. Punishment doesn't have to embarrass. It is as much about removing freedoms and options in order to effect change in behavior. "If you do this, then you won't be allowed to do that." Choices are made, and consequences follow. That's the lesson, I think, not "If you do this, I'll hit you and embarrass you and show you how much more powerful I am than you."

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

I've refrained from entering into this discussion, because other people were speaking perfectly well for me. But here we go anyway.

I was spanked as a child, and I can count the number of times on three fingers. I can't remember the circumstances, and I don't feel emotionally scarred because of it, but I know that those times haunt my parents. Spanking is probably the one thing that they really wish they had never done. Rob is right--spanking is a manifestation of the parent losing control. My parents regret it. As for me? I don't have kids and I don't pass judgment on parents who have resorted to spanking. But, I, personally, would feel badly about ever striking my child. I don't want to live with regret like that for the rest of my life. No sir.

And, smerch, I'm having a hard time understanding how spanking is NOT violent. What's the difference between a spank and a slap across the face? Nothing. Certainly you'd say a slap is violent, right? And furthermore, about it not hurting? What kind of spanking are you talking about? A pat on the ass? I've never seen a kid be spanked with a gentle touch. I don't know how it COULDN'T hurt.

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

I guess when I was thinking of all punishment being humiliating I was taking it a step further in my mind. When you're punished it's an acknowledgement of your wrongdoing. When your wrongdoing or misbehavior is broadcast, as it would have to be for you to be punished (even if it is just to your parent, but more likely it's also to your sibling, friend or classmate), it's humiliating. (Or at least it always is/was for me.)

Does that make sense?

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

Well... I too was spanked as a child and I turned out okay... I suppose. But I would have to say I remember nothing about the instances that elicited the spankings and my only memory is of my father hitting me in an out of control anger... not a good thing. As a parent of two small children, I can tell you that it is my intention never to spank my children. So I can say I probably will end up spanking them an appropriate ammount. My oldest is 4 1/2 and the only time I can recall spanking her was an incident when she ran into the parking lot of a busy restaurant. She was in immediate danger and somehow I felt a spanking was the only way I could communicate to her to NEVER do that again. (She never has by the way) As far as punishment, I think each child and each instance is individual. Time out worked for a while with my oldest, but repeating a simple repeatable list of rules over and over and applying them to certain situations has worked by far the best. "What are the rules?" "No kicking no pushing!" and just orally repeating that dialogue was pretty effective. For other kids, I hear taking away a toy or a TV program works. Sure, I am philisophically opposed to spanking. But if I were placed in the same situation with that parking lot again, I think I would do it again. It is the same thing as slapping a child's hand who is going for a stove burner or a drawer full of knives. They are putting themselves in direct danger where physical pain would have been a result of their behavior.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001

oooh... spanking? I'm totally into it.

Oh, wait...

Are we talking about something else?

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001

Pineapple Girl, I call Lin Chao and she say maybe we need create special forum for you kinkiness. Maybe because you no keep innocent forums rated G. Hmm? :)

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

I'm with PG, though. Seriously. Say you have spanking in a bedroom- only context -- then you're going to turn around and use that as a disciplinary measure for your kid? Nuh-uh.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

Ohhhhh, Ali! I know you di-int! Sisterfriend, you are wrong for whipping out the Lin Chao on me.

And kinkiness??? Nuh-uhhh. Not me, no way, no how. I am saving myself for marriage, yall.

Seriously, I was just trying to bring a little light into the thread, so there was no "Good Parent Vs. Bad Parent" Raw-Is-War!-style smackdown.

 

oh, and because I promised - 5:38 am, 01 Dec 13.

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001

All four of us were spanked as kids...and not one of us believes in spanking our own kids. All I remember was the terror of seeing my parents when they lost control and I knew they were going to hurt me.

No, they weren't "abusive" in the traditional sense..we had no lasting physical harm, and they were loving at all other times. But we all carry burdens of anger and shame connected with those episodes. Whatever lesson we were being taught was always overwhelmed by our own fear and rage. That's what spanking does.

And yes, we all "turned out fine"; except of course that we don't like to talk about certain times when our dad would hit us, and we push those memories out of our minds because they're too painful. We have all managed to find other ways to teach our children without using hitting, and they've turned out as good or better than

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001

[o/t] Hi emjaybee! [/o/t]

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001

Pineapple Girl, I call Lin Chao and she say maybe we need create special forum for you kinkiness. Maybe because you no keep innocent forums rated G. Hmm? :)

Must clean monitor now.

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001