Well, today we were surprised to find our youngest doe (born March 31st of this year) had given birth to a doe herself. I had noticed her milk bag getting more full and she was putting on a little weight, but I thought she was just growing up and gaining winter weight. Boy, was I surprised to find out she was pregnant.

Our small herd of 8 brush goats all run together, so pregnancy can happen whenever they wish. Unfortunately. At this time, we're not set up to seperate the bucks out.

Anyway, our little Angel's Babe (the doe born today) has a problem, I'm afraid. Her mother is very young and very small, but not her child. Angel's Babe was about 1/3 the size of her mother, but with very short front legs and extremely long back legs. She eats well (mother has rejected her and I'm bottle feeding), but she can't seem to walk very well. She looks like a jack rabbit really. I can't get to the vets until Tuesday at the earliest, but I'm afraid he will want to put her to sleep.

Does this sound like she is just very young and will grow out of her clumsiness with her back legs or is it something worse? I'm afraid to hear your answers.

Oh, the mom is part Nubian and who knows what the other part is. She is very tiny, a little larger than a pigmy, but not much more. I milked her for the first time tonight and it was sooooo odd. Kinda like milking a toy. Large bag, with small teats. Only got out about one cup of colostrum. She didn't seem affected by the birth in the least and she cooperated nicely with the milking.

I'm not sure who Angel's Babe's father was. Could have been one of 4 bucks, 3 all of which were born this past spring.

We're sooooo new at this part and really need to hear your advise. Thanks.

Iris and hubby

-- Iris (WatchingWideEyed@peaceful.com), December 09, 2001

Answers

If you can't separate out the buck goats, than you should seriously think about getting rid of them.Or at the very least get them CASTRATED. A haphazard breeding program such as this from unknown backgrounds can result in birth deformities as the goats are probably very closely related and adult goats never fully growing to their potential. In any case, a doe (or ewe, I'm a sheep person,) should be at least a year old and 100 pounds before breeding. I am amazed that the doe survived this breeding, but as you will see, she will never grow a lot bigger as her formative and growing years were stunted. Please scroll down to the archives, click on goats, and read as much as you can on the many informational posts on goats and breeding. We are fortunate to have on this forum many experts on goats.I hope I don't sound too harsh, but I've had a lot of experience with sheep, 23 years, and have accidently had some births from ewe lambs such as your doeling, and the results were DISASTROUS. Dead mothers, prolapsed uterus's and dead lambs. A very sad and painful lesson. I too thought they were too young too breed, and I'm sorry to say I learned otherwise.At least your doe survived. Good luck .

-- Kate henderson (kate@sheepyvalley.com), December 09, 2001.

I would assume it's a sort of deformity she has. Why are you keeping 4 bucks with your does?? If you can't seperate them, get rid of them & just rent or borrow a buck at breeding time. You will end up with a lot of problems if they are inbreeding at such young ages. This doe was born in March?? That means she was barely over 3 months old when bred. Way too young. A rule of thumb is 1-1 1/2 years old when first bred or 80 lbs. I held off breeding quite a few until they were 2 just because they weren't very big. If you are going to keep all of them together, get the males castrated soon! You are lucky you didn't lose both of them. Please have something done soon or you will end up with a lot of problems, dead goats, or vet bills.

-- Wendy (weiskids@yahoo.com), December 09, 2001.

This may be attributed to a selinium deficiency during her pregnancy, its quite common to see leg problems in kids in areas where there are selinium deficiencies. Try giving the kid 1/4 CC of MU-SE or BO-SE. I am not sure about the BO-SE shot as our vet only carriers Mu-SE, but I know Vicki would know. Also give her some immuno supplement such as ID-1, Immuno-G or Goat Stress to help with the colestrum amount since your doe doesn't have full milk yet. Give some Goat Aid Drench or if you don't have that then warm molasses water will work to provide energy to both mom and the kid.

I don't think the leg problems will improve, it sounds like a genetic problem, but try the selinium anyways as it may help. Good luck.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), December 09, 2001.

Thanks to all for your help. I'm afraid the little one will not make it through the week. She's eating, but that's about it. Not walking much at all. So, I think a visit to the vets for the dreaded results will have to be. This breaks my heart. I've not gotten rid of any of my goats, male or female, because I grow sooooo attached to them instantly. These goats are just for brush control, so I figured we didn't need to get rid of the males. But, it looks like I was wrong.

We do have one Alpine doe, who is very old, that will stay until her natural death. She did deliver two of the bucks this past spring, but I don't think she should have anymore either. She is starting to have trouble with one back knee. And even chewing. She's the one I started with and am most attached to. I will probably fix something for her seperately or with a buck I intend to make a wether, so he may go to the vet with me this week too. He's very good tempered, but just toooo small for breeding or anything. He was also rejected by his mother.

Come to think of it, the females that started all this were two of the does I rescued from a man who wanted a lawnmower. He keeped them in his front yard and fed them dog food. He decided to get rid of them when they wouldn't eat his grass. Such a sad situation. He had actually traded them with a man who owed him money. Now I'm wondering if I wouldn't just be better off selling all that line and renting a brushhog. I had wanted to do this at the end of next summer anyway and get things ready for fullblood Alpine stock. But, I guess it will be sooner. But, I will keep my older Alpine doe and the wether. I just can't part with them.

It's hard sometimes to love animals. I simply can't stand for them to hurt in any way.

Thanks again for the advise and information.

Iris

-- Iris (WatchingWideEyed@peaceful.com), December 09, 2001.

I know it sounds harsh but you need to think of it another way. You, by castrating or selling the bucks, are saving the does. The does can't have babies when they are so young. Accidents happen, yes. But you will be doing them a favor by separating them by whatever means necessary. There are far too many animals to save. I, unfortunately, found that out. Keep the best animals, sell the rest. You won't have room for the better stock if you don't. Sorry for your difficult decision. Good Luck

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), December 09, 2001.

You might find that banding the little bucks is not that difficult, if you have a helper. None of ours have had any ill from it, other than a little soreness the first day. If you band them by the time they are a month old, you shouldn't have this problem, and then you can decide at your leisure which you want to keep and which sell.

Sorry about the little doe.

-- mary (mlg@aol.com), December 09, 2001.

we always sold our buck kids not only to regulate breeding but because the darn things smell so much! Whenever we'd borrow a buck(nubians) for breeding it'd take weeks for that smell to leave the barn ; )

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 09, 2001.

8 goats, 4 of which could be this little goats father? Castration or bar-b-que are the only advice you are getting from me, I feel very sorry for the 4 does! Yes they "all run together, so pregnancy can happen whenever they wish" sounds like an ideal life, but only for the bucks who choose to breed the does whenever they want! This doe who just had her kids will more than likely be rebred in January and this doeling in March. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 09, 2001.

Iris, where are you located?

-- Lisa (lambrose@summitpolymers.com), December 10, 2001.

It seems everyone has made this question an issue of how many bucks there are. I agree totally with them--all you possibly need is one and kept seperate from the others. I have been in your position of no way to confine them--it can be discouraging when you are outside with a 8 month old, -20 below in a barn, helping deliver a kid. Please seperate, or sell--use the money to buy more does if that is the issue. ANYWAYS--I once had a kid that was born short legged and weak. We strung him up in a sling (looked like a hammock) only the cloth area went under his belly area. I used old towels and had to change continually--wetting purposes. BUT he did come out of it in I think it was aroung 2-3 weeks.

-- (stephanie.wilkerson@experian.com), December 11, 2001.

Iris, do you still have the kid? How is it doing now? I have had kids born with legs that seemed to bend the wrong direction, that had way to much give and were very wobbly. They set up and get stronger in time, it can take several days. Sometimes they walk on their knuckles, and the back legs are just not very coordinated, they swing all over the place while the kid thries to stand and walk. I'm not sure if it's a selenium deficiency or what, but they do improve with time. It seems to hit the kids that have been compromised or crowded, triplets or kids from yearlings, for example.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 11, 2001.

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff going on. Little Angel's Babe is doing much, much better. The vet said she should be given a week to see if she gets any stronger and that's what I'm doing. She's really working hard at walking now. I have a new puppy, who thinks Babe is her sister. It's really cute to see them snoozing together. Babe chases the pup around, very wobbly, but running. I just can't believe how much better she is now. No matter what, if she pulls out of this, she will be kept as a pet. No breeding. And, folks, I'm going to get rid of my bucks. Any takers? Well, all but the one. He's going to be fixed and keep company with Babe. At this point, I'm going to start selling off my brush goats and start looking around for some nice Alpine does. In the spring, of course. But, I honestly think I'm at the point of preferring to pay for A.I. than keeping bucks at all. I feel soooo stupid here. I guess I was a bit idealistic. The Sunnybrook Farm syndrome. lol Well, chores are calling my name, so see ya round. Thanks again.

Iris from Oklahoma

-- Iris (WatchingWideEyed@peaceful.com), December 11, 2001.

Glad to hear the little one is getting better. I bet the puppy and her are quite a pair! Its so hard when you first begin in farming, especially raising a animal that you are new too. I wish you well in selling those bucks, if you have a market for Holiday meat goats you might want to check it out becuase now would be the best time to sell.

FYI, I raise Alpines and live in AR. I may have some available in the spring. There is also another person who has a dairy here in AR, Vicki posted her sales post that mentions she sells her bucks, registered for 100.00 each and does were reasonable as well. Good luck!

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), December 12, 2001.

Hello Iris,

The standard age/weight at first breeding is 7 mos./70 lbs. With good nutrition your little momma should grow to her full adult size.Dairy goats can have final growth spurts as four year olds. I am curious as to why you don't upgrade your grades instead of starting from scratch, some of my favorite and most correct does are from grade stock.Good luck, and best wishes to your Angel Babe.

-- Kacy (kcjp@earthlink.net), February 12, 2002.