I need any and all info into starting a business. Are there web sites out there that will give you acess to govt sites as far as grants. How do you go about changing your property taxes as far as homestead exempt? I am almost hesitant to mention what it is because I am sure there will be neigh sayers out there but here goes. I have an oppertunity to by out a rabbitry, He has 36 does, 8 buck, all the cages and feeding equipment. He wants $1000.00 for it all. That is not including the young rabbits that are ready to go for meat. I have talked to a buyer in Ohio that is about 21/2 hours from me. They are paying .85 a lb up to 5 1/2 lbs or $4.65 a rabbit. If I could keep enough does to breed atleast 15 per week I think i could average 100 rabbits per week going for slaughter. I already have the barn and have looked into feed costs. Alraedy have all the hay[ have horses] My problem is I dont have a $1000.00. I could take it off my charge cards but??? Also the way the buyer works is they establish a quota for the summer months. So whatever you bring them in the winter from Jan thru April is what you can bring for May thru August. She said this keeps it fair to the legitimate business that are trying to do this year around. I do believe the system is fair but my original plan was to start with young stock and working my way up gradually. If I do that I wont have anything to ship till summer and I wont have my quota in. Please give advice.

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), December 12, 2001

Answers

Biggest Question, Why is he selling? Too old, too much to do? are the rabbits healthy? how many babies do his rabbits average per litter? lots of questions to ask! Are there any other Buyers in the area? I would not get into it unless there were at lease two outlets to sell to.

-- buffy (buffyannjones@hotmail.com), December 12, 2001.

He is an Amish man and also operates his own saw mill. He said that he just doesnt have the time. There are other outlets but not as close. We have a horse trailer so hauling would not be a problem. His animals appeared healthy. I just got off the phone for the ag. extension office but to qualify they want you to already have the experience in the same field. It is a catch 20-2. I do have business experience, but not in livestock.

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), December 12, 2001.

Tracy, it sounds like you are very interested in trying this rabbit adventure. I would advise you to proceed with caution. I have raised rabbits before in the past and I am currently raising them now. At one time I had over 200 rabbits. 36 does and 8 bucks are a lot of rabbits, but if you are trying to go commerical you will need alot of rabbits. Here are some things I would advise.

1. Check to see what type of records the owner has kept on each rabbit. You should know the date of birth - sex - age - how many litters it has had - what the size of the litters were - how many survived to butcher size - what were there weight and age was when sold. Records are very important if you are raising rabbits for a business. Records will inform you which ones to cull and which to keep for breeding stock.

2. Are these rabbits full blood? What is there breed? If they are full blood do they come with papers? Do they have pedigrees? Are the ears marked? Good stock sells for much more then a butcher rabbit. Is the breed a meat rabbit? These are questions you should ask.

3. Are the cages all wire or do they have exposed wood? If they are wood you will have to repair or replace more often. What is the water system? Bottles or bowls? Alot of time can be spent on watering rabbits.

4. What type of feed is he now feeding? If you plan to change be sure to change over slowly. What to you plan to do with the droppings? This could be another source of income or great for your garden - but with that many rabbits you will have a lot of droppings.

5. What about nest boxes? Is he useing wood or metal? Some have boxes built into the cages. Metal one dont get chewed on but seem to remain colder.

6. Read, read, read. The best book I have found is put out by the American Rabbit Breeders Association. It is "Offical Guidebook to Raising Better Rabbits and Cavies" The web site is www.arba.net You may consider becoming a member. The book is not for sale but is free with membership. The book covers small scale to large breeders.

7. Another place to contact people is the "rabbitweb.net" People there will be willing to give you help and answer questions.

A simple rule of thumb - don't count your chicks before they hatch. The same is true of rabbits - don't count your bunnies before they are born. Most people think that rabbits will breed and produce like crazy. This is not always the case. Proceed with caution.

I don't believe I have ever made money on rabbits - however I have enjoyed it.

-- Tom S. (trdsshepard@yahoo.com), December 12, 2001.

They are all New Zealands. He does have breeding records, not all that good though. He has kept track of the litters but doesnt have all their ages. From my experience with Amish, they are not very good at record keeping. All the cages are wire, 5 hole system. He has metal feeders[cost around $5.00 new] and water bottles. He has both wooden and metal nest boxes. The cages are all in pretty decent shape and he redid the floors in all of them. I have water in my barn so eventually I could set up an automatic watering system. I realize this is not a get rich quick idea, I am prepared to do the work. I was laid off from my job and am not willing to ever work as hard as I did to benifit someone else. I will work extremely hard but for myself. P.S. I would rather be cleaning the barn then my house[LOL]

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), December 12, 2001.

Tracy,

Here are a few web sites you might like to have a look at, before you get too far. The first is a yahoo discussion site just for meat rabbit people. Funny, but they were just tackling this same type of question. The second site is a wonderful person who really knows her stuff, espically about doing it commercially.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Meatrabbits/ http://www.3-cities.com/~fuzyfarm/

T.

-- TonyG (t@home.com), December 12, 2001.

Dear Ms Murfette (darling Tracy, whatever), the only meaningful advice I can give is to not feel pressured into making a decision. There's few magic solutions, and more likely whatever is right will still be right in three months time, and still involve a lot of work. The "magic solution" is more likely to be the "right answer" after three month's study and eight month's waiting. If you can spend the three months (or is it 11 weeks now?) studying and flipping burgers, you're a lot more likely to make the right decision than to do it while feeling under pressure. Please don't "do something" just because you feel pressured by events.

The rabbits may be right, and you may have got lucky in the timing - I don't know. However, I'd really hate for you to do the wrong thing just because you thought you needed to hurry.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), December 12, 2001.

Don, what gave you the impression that I am "rushing into things?" I will lose $1000.00 before I go flip burgers. If you read my post down aways I got layed off because my scum bag boss made a move on me and I turned him down. He proceeded in letting me work my ass off for 2 more weeks getting everyone trained, setting up all his suppliers, etc before he told me he had to eliminate my position becuase he couldnt afford me. I have been doing my research on this and believe I can make it work. My original plan was to start small and proceed from there. But if you read what I stated above, is the processing plant establishes a quota and if I am not able to market now, come summer I wont be able to do squat. I have 6 months of unemployment coming and am utilizing everything I can. I have signed up for a business course through them that I will be able to get my tax ID # and other assistance.I dont believe that you come into an oppertunity like this always and 6 months from now I might not have the option of buying an entire business. Sometimes you might just have to take the leap of faith. Tracy

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), December 12, 2001.

Tracy, I didn't say "rushing into things" - you did. And if you check yout previous thread, you'll see I was supportive of you - not the opposite, as you seem to assume. I still left open the possibility that this may be the right answer for you.

As for me, I'd much rather spend three months flipping burgers (and getting just enough to pay the rent) than sitting around, trying to find work, and going into debt (not that trying to find work is bad, but going into debt is a less preferable option). Three months of burger-flipping buys you three months of looking for an alternative.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), December 12, 2001.

Why don't you be prepared to do both? I don't know how you can get the necessary money, but I have seen succesful businesses get developed out here AFTER the owners got off of a full time job. With 36 does, you should be able to take care of them AND work full time, if you don't mind the extra hours. Once the does are in production, and you have money coming in, aquire or keep back some young does, and time your resignation to when the stock will need extra care. Also, with a barn you might see if you cannot board an extra horse or two. Take care of the boarder when you take care of your own horse for an extra 15 minutes a day in labor.

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), December 12, 2001.

Go down to the Rabbits category towards the bottom of the page. Some info there. When someone mentioned something similar, several people suggested becoming a local rabbit broker also. From what I have seen, you won't do much better than break even on rabbits if you use predominately commercial feeds. If you have to deliver, you said the buyer was 2 1/2 hours a way, so say that's 125 miles. If your vehicle gets 12 1/2 mpg pulling a trailer, that's ten gallon every trip, plus wear and tear on the equipment.

There may be local markets for composted rabbit manure and older does and spent bucks.

Selling to a single buyer is dicey. If they fold, what do you do with all of the production until someone else can be lined up?

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 12, 2001.

Tracy, are these rabbits delivered live or dressed, who is going to do that work?

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), December 12, 2001.

The rabbits will be delivered live. As far as the other poster, the purpose of doing this is so I dont have to work for someone else. Don, didnt mean to come across so defensively. I would like to establish a few different avenues so my eggs arent in all 1 basket so to speak. I am also looking into soap making. My DH also does woodworking and might be able to market his crafts also. I have never cared that much about money. If we are able to pay the bills and put ffod on the table that is fine. Alot of self sufficiency is about how to eliminate costs which I have been trying to do. Simple things like making our own laundry detergent, growing our own food, etc, etc. I am going to try this. What I need is business Info. What can be used as tax write offs, etc.

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), December 12, 2001.

Tracy, Good luck with your venture. How many cages are in this price that you are offered? 36 does 8 bucks ( a little buck heavy). The "market" that you are being offered is it a firm, steady market. I ask because this summer I lost 2 of my market outlets and had fryers out my ears! I butchered 60 and gave the last 15 away to someone to butcher for their use just to quit buying so much feed! I would want to know the ages of the does and their mothering abilities. The doe that has 8 and raises them is worth more then the doe that has 12 and looses half of them. I would personally start with less animals and see if this is a viable venture for you. Many people stay in the rabbit business about 18 months 6 months getting started, 6 months raising them, and 6 months getting out! I have 50 -60 adult animals at any time and raise them for food and show. I have sold my fryers commercially. I do still sell to various people but they buy live, and butcher themselves. At this time it is more hobby then business, but if they pay for the feed bill I am happy! If I can answer other questions please let me know. Denise

-- Denise K. (Rabbitmom2@webbworks.com), December 12, 2001.

Tracy, I think most of us are saying to proceed with caution. I am not sure you can make alot of money or any money from rabbits. The operation would have to be handled very carefully and would have to be very efficant.

Rabbit feed would be your major cost. Are you planning to just feed them hay? I am not sure that is the best course of action. I could see giving them hay as a suppliment. I feed mine pellets and also feed oats. They need a balanced diet just like other animals to keep them healthy.

Rabbit manure can be sold. I have heard of one person who made enought money off the manure to pay for his feed cost. This to me sounds almost to good to be true. For myself I would rather use the manure on my own land to build up the soil. I believe that the cost of the feed is worth the fertilizer I get. Rabbit manure is one of the few manures you can put right into the garden. (It will not burn the plants.)

If you are looking at cost factors this deal sounds like a good one. I don't know what prices are where you are but breeding does and bucks here sell for $25 - $35 each. That is for full blood with papers.

Cages are not that cheep either. I use stacking with trays and they run around $60 or more a hole new. (That is a compartment.) If you consider the amount of years they will be used that is not a bad price. If you are getting enough holes for that many rabbits, again that is a bargin. Also consider you will need to keep future breeding stock and they take up room. Litters will also take up space.

Over-all I would say - If these are good cages with good rabbits this is a bargin.

But continue to consider-

What type of breeding program are you considering? A litter every three months - or one every other month? Have you considered how this will affect the health of the does?

Have you thought about how or who is going to deal with the culling. No matter how healthy the rabbits are you will get some sick ones. Non-producing and old rabbits with have to be dealt with also. Who will take care of these?

Diseases can also run through an entire herd. I have found that most farm vets are not into rabbit care. Much of the care for rabbits we do ourselves. If you are like the rest of us - you will lose rabbits because it is too cold. You will lose rabbits because they get to hot and will turn sterile (that will only be till it cools off again). I have seen wry neck (cull), ear mites, cannabalism, fur block, sore hocks, and snuffles - and these are in a herd that is somewhat healthy. Just as people get sick - so do rabbits.

The best teacher I have found is experience. And only comes from jumping in - but before I jump in I want to know how deep the water is.

-- Tom S. (trdsshepard@yahoo.com), December 12, 2001.

I was hoping to be able to breed enough does, aprox 15 per week to average 100 per week being marketable[in 12 weeks] So if I kept 45 does and 5 buck and established a breeding plan as to breeding 15 per week then that should work. As far as feed goes that is the tricky part. I spoke with the guy from my feed store and asked him quite a few questions. I want to have my own feed mixed per ton that I would be able to utilize for all my animals and buy in baulk. I believe we have came up with a suitable mix that will sustain the horses, cow, turkeys, chickens and hopefully the rabbits. Now I am also aware that this feed will have to be switched very slowly as not to cause digestive upset. This is a 16% protein mixture and cost will run me $9.50 per 100lbs. I can also supplement with calf manna if need be. The cages are aprox probably 60 holes altogether plus many larger gcages for holding pens. He has everything to go with them feeders, waters, nesting boxes, etc. So $1000.00 would be a good deal?? Mitch I received your email but couldnt open it, said it had a virus.Thanks for all the info

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), December 12, 2001.

Tracy , I to have been looking into it .I can get papered rabbits for 20.00 { New Zealands}I got 24 cages feeders and nesting boxes for free.I am still looking for the steady market ! Good luck and keep us posted.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), December 12, 2001.

Work up a business plan and then evaluate it as a potential investor, cause that is what you are. Call your local Small Business Development Office and get info on the free classes re: taxes, licenses, etc. in your state. Call the local SCORE office and get free advice there re: your specific situation. Take your time.

-- Anne (Healthytouch101@wildmail.com), December 12, 2001.

Tracy

Where are you located? If it's not against your beliefs, you may want to check out hospitals and universities as a scondary outlet for your rabbits. We raised rabbits for labs for years. Lots of work, but my folks raised a family on it. The meat market is a little tougher.....around here anyway. If your buyers go through a dry spell, a backup market may be a good idea. Even a local grocery that you deliver dressed rabbits to as a backup. As kids, we used to be able to slaughter and dress a rabbit in under three minutes. You get to keep that middleman markup.... Good luck in your new venture. Sue

-- Sue (sulandherb@aol.com), December 12, 2001.

I would advise, after personal experiences as a rabbit raiser who has a "herd" of between 35 and 80 rabbits at any given time (breeders not young uns), to START OFF SLOW! Rabbits need to be learned before you can expect them to do good. You need at least 2 years, to my mind, experience working with rabbits before you will ever learn enogh to actually make any money. Instead of dropping 1000 bucks you dont have, this is what I recommend. Buy two does and 1 buck. I would recommend the following breeds: New Zealand, Satin, Flemish Giant, Floridian (I have litte to no info on that breed, though). It is imperative that the rabbit grow quickly and produce healthy litters every time. I have also had excellent meat results from a triple cross- A New Zealand, a Flemish Giant, and a French Angora... if fur will not be used. If you have a market for pelt, go with the Satin as they have (by far) the best pelt. Buy the absolute BEST stock you can buy- but just because it sells high dont mean it a good buy- I have picked up unwanted and free rabbits that have finished Best of Breed (I show rabbits also). I have also bought rabbits that were 30+ dollars each that turned out to be JUNK. Get caging as you need it. Make it yourself!!! Contact the ARBA for breeder info in your area- you can get good stock this way. I could possibly put you on to a good beginner set of rabbits, depending on what breed you want. Hay? Yes, you can feed rabbits hay and get by. But, will they be as productive as pellet fed rabbits? I doubt it. You can do alot to save money on feeds, though, and I do feed (every other day) hay. But lactating mothers and pregnant does require more (and better) feeds. Look at it this way- you can spend 1000 dollars up front and wind up with poor results for various reasons- and I am speaking from experience- i had an awful time for the first year or so- couldnt sex the rabbits, litters would die left and right, caging was inadequet, etc. Or you could spend 50 to 100 dollars on a set (3) rabbits and caging and have excellent results PLUS be able to breed up your own breeding stock and get the pick of the litter for free. If you need advice, dont be a stranger. My # here is (252) 4622 2369.

-- Kevin in NC (Vantravlrs@aol.com), December 13, 2001.

If there is a real buyer within driving distance, I would jump at the chance. 1000 is not that much, even on a credit card, that's only about 20 dollars a month. Surly you can make much more than that. The key to the whole thing is having a buyer. I've read and read on the net, and the buyer is the most important thing. I would ask too if maybe you have to feed real rabbit pellets, might be something in the contract, to keep all the meat tasting the same.

Here in KY, those full grown New Zealands are worth at least 15 a piece, maybe 20, not even registered. And cages are high, even at the flea market. I sell all of our baby rabbits for 5 apiece, and never have enough for everyone, and mine are large breed mixed.

I would go for it. Anything real that would give you the chance to work on the farm and make money is worth it. I would love it if Steve could stay home with me and not go to work every day. Rabbit manure is soooo much easier to work with than cow pies, rabbits are clean, cute and easy to care for. And baby bunnies are the best, even if they do have to leave in a bit. I wish we had a buyer down here, and something like that came along for us. Go for it!

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 13, 2001.

Remember that your costs will always be AT LEAST 10% higher than you think thay will be, and one of my business teachers said that many good business people figure on 25% higher costs than estimated. There will ALWAYS be the unexpected. I am also trying to be self employed: good luck to you!

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), December 13, 2001.

Tracy, there's a lot of good advice posted here. I vote for going with it. You don't want to sit around years from now wondering if it would have worked. Life's too short! All of us have tried various animals with various degrees of success. You'll never know until you try it yourself. It's not like you will be stuck with rabbits for the rest of your life if it doesn't work out. Good Luck!

-- cowgirlone (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), December 13, 2001.