i was just wondering, how resistant to the elements is the M6 and the current crop of lenses?

this came up today when i wanted to photgraph something...and it was raining lightly...

i suppose it's not as resistant as the F5 or 1v but i'd like to know the experience of the owners...

thanks!

-- Dexter Legaspi (dalegaspi@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001

Answers

Actually, the M6 would be a lot more resistant than the F5 or EOS 1v because the Leica has fewer electronic parts. So basically you needn't worry about shooting your M6 in the rain :)

alfie

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

Another piece of bad advice from the Forum know-it-all.

-- Williumn (bmitch@home.com), December 14, 2001.

That is not bad advice, that's truth. Unless you're a collector, the Leica M6 is durable in light rain. I wouldn't be sticking it in heavy rain without drying it off because of the potential for rusting but light rain is fine. My friend Angel Serraty shoots in any weather, rain or sun or cloudy. So that's the way it works.

Enjoy shooting your Leica M6 :)

Alfie

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

Yes, I too wish Alfie would put a sock in it once in a while, or thinks a little before he writes. The M6 will be OK in light rain, but only in moderation. Certainly in heavy rain you must be much more careful. They are not waterproof, but will put up with some moisture on the outside. Use common sense. I suspect that the F5/EOS is better in the rain actually.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

Alfie, excuse me. But you don't own an M6 do you? Why don't you let people who actually own and use an M6 actually comment about it firsthand, instead of passing hearsay and disinformation. Jeez. This is ridiculous. Do you feel it's necessary to chime in about everything?

Dexter, I've used my M6 in rain plenty of times. I've never had a problem with the meter or shutter not working. I keep it covered as much as possible (say, under a jacket) when not shooting and when I get to a dry place, I wipe it down. The M seems pretty good at keeping water out of the insides. The big problem is keeping water drops off the front lens element so that you can take a clear photo (a hood helps substantially). Though I've never used it in torrential downpours (obviously that would be a different scenario). Also when I've been shooting on the water (like on a ferry or boat), I also make sure I use a UV filter so that salt spray won't get on the lens element.

I find that people are too ginger with their M6 and it can take a lot more abuse than you think.

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

Gotta agree with most here - Alfie should actually make himself more informed about things before he spouts off! Though I would not hesitate to take my Leicas out in a light shower, the EOS 1, and the F5 are two of the best sealed cameras ever made. Both of these cameras (though I think the F5 has a slight advantage) are double sealed on any shafts that lead throught the camera body. Please Alfie, you said previously you don't need a camera/photography course---YOU DO!!!

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

Sorry - just gotta say this - 'enthusiasm is no excuse for ignorance'.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

Bob:

'enthusiasm is no excuse for ignorance'.

Me thinks that you has that back-assward. It should read that "ignorance is no excuse for enthusiasm". ;o)))

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

Dexter, They're pretty resistant to light rain (I live in Oregon ) But, Zip-Lock bags are good insurance and easy to carry.

-- George L. Doolittle (geodoolitt@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

Never had a problem with any M in snow or rain or temperature....just try to keep them as dry as possible but a little water or snow aint going to hurt em.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 14, 2001.

Is a car an element? Because, let me tell you, a M6 cannot survive getting run over by one of those.

As for F5 vs M6. Alfie does have a point that there are less electrical parts in an M camera. But there are other little things that won't like water. Such as springs, cloth shutters, film, and so on. Take you nikonos out in a real downpour.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), December 14, 2001.

Speaking of the M's through the M6 classic (I've not had the top plate off a TTL)the top plate laps the body casting and fits quite snugly, and all the knobs are held down with fine-pitch threaded rings and nuts; however there is no gasketing that I recall on the shutter release shaft, nor where the rewind crank enters the body, nor beneath the hot shoe. Same for the battery compartment: tight threading but no gaskets. In a persistent rain it would seem possible that some water could gain entry to at least the rangefinder area, and then seep down farther including into the meter circuitry. Yes the F5 is electronic, no it isn't waterproof, but it has been sealed with specific gasketing, against moisture and dust/grit (which by the way is a lot more destructive in the long haul). I have shot even not-so-well-sealed electronic cameras (like the R's) in the rain, but carried under my coat or wrapped in a plastic bag or shower cap until the moment of shooting and then quickly replaced. For sustained shooting in heavy rain, I've got a Canon underwater P&S. Shooting through a downpour, Leica glass has less of a noticeable edge! Another good choice is a Nikonos--get them while you can, they've been discontinued.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

Dexter

i have on many occasions used my M4-P (essentially the same as an M6 but no inboard meter) in light rain and snow. I never had any problems. Once I saw moisture inside the viewfinder and I let it dry out, no problems.

It is possible for the factory or an expert repairman to better seal an M camera against moisture and dust. Leica did this for the KE-7A (military version of a black Canadian M4) and some of their military IIIcK cameras during WWII.

This is not routinely done, although in my experience, the Leica M cameras are all well sealed and resistant to dust, sand, light rain, heat, and cold. There are a number of photographers who prefer the Leica M to electronic autofocus models in extreme cold (Arctic) type weather, the desert, and the rain forest. I am not aware of any direct comparisons with the Nikon F5 or Eos-1V, but I would bet the Leica M is superior to most every electronic camera model undre these conditions.

No doubt, others will point out the fallacy of my statements.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), December 14, 2001.

I have seen a Leica repair guy take the top off of an M6 and there actually aren't too many gaps for moisture to get through, unlike modern SLR's with all those buttons and switches that has to be insulated. What worries me are the lenses though.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), December 14, 2001.

Weather resistance has nothing to do with the amount of electronics in a camera. It has to deal with how well sealed the camera is.

On the other hand, I've gotten most of my cameras fairly wet. The only one I really worry about is the wooden pinhole camera, which has no electronics, in fact no mechanically moved parts, because the wood probably will warp. My Mamiya 7, filled with electronics, has gotten very wet with no ill effects. Maybe that's luck, I don't know. I did permanently lose flash sync in an old manual rangefinder that got too wet, and I had a flash unit die after it got wet.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), December 14, 2001.

Um, wait a minute guys. Read what's been posted. I'm not siding with anyone, but if you read what Alfie wrote, then read what folks posted AFTER what he wrote, said he was full of it, then made the very same statements that he did. See anything wrong with this picture?

Here's what happened:

Dexter: Shoot M6 in rain?
Alfie: Yep, sure can.
Others: Alfie is so totally wrong. He needs a class. Oh, by the way, yep, you can shoot your M6 in the rain.

OK. I'm done complaining now. I'm going home to smell my Christmas tree, have a glass of fine red wine, a slice of Brie, and forget about programming and computers for a weekend.

Oh, to answer the question, yep, I've very often shot my M bodies in light rain and snow. I've also dropped my M6 into a snowbank with no ill effects. I've even taken my M bodies out in extreme (Alaskan) cold weather, did photography, and brought them back in to let all kinds of moister condense onto the camera. No ill effects. I just plain DON'T WORRY ANY MORE about my M cameras. :-)

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), December 14, 2001.

Alfie, Alfie, Alfie, Alfie... Just when things were starting to go well for you, you go and put your foot right in it! When are you going to learn? Try just sitting back, relaxing and listening (watching) before you jump in with an answer! ...Reminds of the one about the young bull and the old bull looking over the herd of fresh heffers...

Nikon actually specs for H2O resistance in its higher-end pro-line bodies, and lists the information in the respective technical publications as so many ml/hr. The professional level Nikons, ie; F3, F4 and F5 were all *very* well sealed against moisture. I've had my F4 and my F5 subjected to a lot of water (my F5 routinely gets douched when in the ski boat, and my F4 was out in many a storm photographing wildlife...) and I *never* had an ioata of a problem. Also, while I've never seen a similar spec for their lenses, I've never had any problems with them in the same environments -- manual or AF versions.

OTOH, as pointed out by previous posts, the Leica M is not specifically sealed against moisture. And low-tolerance joints tend to suck up liquids via the physics of capillary action... But the M is also all mechanical as pointed out earlier, so it will likely withstand similar conditions. The difference being that a little water won't hurt the M long-term if you let it dry out afterwards; while the newer high-end Nikons (and I assume Canons) won't let it in in the first place.

Cheers,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 14, 2001.

Tony:

Try a martini!

;-) Cheers,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), December 14, 2001.

Tina Manley dropped her M6 and lens into the Amazon. Fortunately a quick boat man hooked it by the strap before it disappeared forever. When the got to land she rinsed well with freah water and opened everything up to dry. She used the camera and lens for the rest of the trip with no problems. Upon her return home, she sent the body in for a CLA but the lens is still in service.

I photograph in the rain frequently and take no special precautions. Everything works just fine.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), December 14, 2001.

thanks, guys. now i feel more confident with the M6 being resistant to rain, etc...

in case you're wondering, i DID use the camera although it was raining lightly...i was just worried, i guess...after all, i just paid 3 big ones on this camera!

later, guys.

-- Dexter Legaspi (dalegaspi@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

Hi, Tony:

Polite intervention, as always. And wise, too . . .

Enjoy !!

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), December 14, 2001.

........of course, you could use a weatherproof PnS like the Stylus Epic. I find that a raindrop or two really enhances the bokeh of that f/2.8 all-glass lens.

John

-- John myers (mymacv@aol.com), December 15, 2001.

Sorry, who's Tina Manley?

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 15, 2001.

Link: Tina Manley

-- Niels H. S. Nielsen (nhsn@ruc.dk), December 15, 2001.

In my experience, light rain won't affect your camera, but a downpour almost certainly will, especially if you can't dry it out thoroughly immediately afterwards. I have had sticky shutter releases on both my M6's which I suspect is due to extensive use in the monsoon. However, just dropping a couple of drops of sewing machine oil down the centre of the shutter release thread and well and working the release up and down for a few minutes seems to have cured the problem, although it's probably not something a purist would do.

I have considered getting a nikonos for such conditions, but the idea of going to estimated focusing is not very appealing. I'm not good at that sort of thing, although I'm sure I'd learn eventually.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 15, 2001.

I got sloshed by a fountain shooting with an M4-P this summer (think small fire hose) Enough to get fog in the viewfinder. Wiped it off, took it home, put it in a very low oven (100 degrees or so) for 2 hours to dry it out - it's worked fine ever since with no further service.

Alfie is right AND wrong - the Ms are NOT more water resistant than a sealed F5 or EOS 1. But the AF cameras are well-sealed for good reason - if moisture ever DID get inside them they'd be toast. While if moisture gets inside an M, you just dry it out. 8^) So it is FUNCTIONALLY more resistant to damage if not PHYSICALLY more resistant to water molecules.

An M6TTL is probably more vulnerable than an M6 'classic' is probably more vulnerable than an unmetered body. It's the electronics that really hate water.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), December 15, 2001.

I don't mind taking my M2 or M6 out in light drizzle for a bit. I just give it a careful wipedown with cloth & Q-tips once back inside.

John Collier's post about Tina Manley's dunked M4 has a bearing on what I was going to say. I worry about the effect of moisture on lenses. We are advised, as I understand it, to keep our lenses in dry places, to avoid fungus. I'm glad Tina's lens survived so well, but might not moisture from repeated exposure accumulate to produce fungus and fog? Ever notice condensation inside your watch crystal after it's been in a humid place? I could see droplets getting in around, say, the aperture-control ring, and fogging the interior, or worse. I don't think I've had this problem, I just wonder about it.

Any Comments?

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), December 15, 2001.

I try to avoid making comments here that are personal in nature, as it tends to spoil the forum in my opinion. My experience is that when confronted harshly, people get defensive and seldom respond in a way that benefits anyone anyway. I do think anyone who post answers here has a duty to try and stick with what they know from their personal experience-as we have an enormous pool to draw from here of people who have had "hands on" with just about anything Leica ever made. Don't forget, folks actually make decisions based on the info that's printed up here. It's fine to post referrals like "here is a source that deals exactly with what you're asking", but I am most interested in first hand knowledge if I have a particular question. I personally try to avoid jumping in on Leica R8, IIIC, or Leica darkroom equipment threads for this reason, as I have little or no experience with these items.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), December 15, 2001.

You might want to check out Michael Reichmann's web site "www.luminous-landscape.com". He has a great article on the Leica and he has a couple of anecdotes on how his Leica (M) stood up to a torrential downpour and, after drying out, kept functioning as if nothing had happened.

-- Phil Allsopp (pallsopp42@attbi.com), December 18, 2001.

Niels,

thank you very much indeed for the link to TINA MANLEY. Great photography, thanks again.

Best wishes

-- K. G. Wolf (k.g.wolf@web.de), December 19, 2001.