Hi, I am in a quandry and I would appreciate your input. I have used a few different leica models over the past years. I now have a chrome M4 and am considering selling it and replacing it with an M6. The reason is to have the meter. I currently use an MR4, generally off the camera, or a Gossen Luna Pro. I am using the leica more and my SLR system less. I mainly use b&w film. Maybe it's a carry over from the autofocusing built in meter of the slr that makes me feel the built in meter of the M6 will be more convenient. I know it's somewhat a matter of personal preference, but any feedback you may have would be appreciated. I would also be interested in any information on what a fair price for an M4 in good condition moght be. TIA. Rob Steinberg

-- Robert Steinberg (rstein@erols.com), December 14, 2001

Answers

Yes, Robert, you should sell your M4. Sell it now. Sell it to me. My check for $400 is in the mail as we speak. Seriously, buddy, they don't make M4s anymore, you know. IMHO, the M4 gives a shooter the best of both worlds: the old Leica craftsmanship, but with modern loading and rewind. Sure, the bulit- in meter of an M6 is a nice convenience, and if you were buying your first Leica it would be an excellent choice. But since you already have an M4... I would keep the M4 and enjoy it, even with a hand- held meter.

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

The latest LHSA "Viewfinder" magazine devotes a key article to the M4. Evidentally you're not a member...perhaps should be...but, borrow a copy from a friend who is a member or e-mail me and I'll copy it for you. That might disabuse any notions about disposing of your M4. Nonetheless, an M6 might make a nice companion to your M4. Both have valuable merits

-- George L. Doolittle (geodoolitt@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

Don't sell your M4 man! Buy the M6 and use it for a while and the M4 as a backup...I guarantee if you sell it you will regret it later. While I use my M6 way more than my M3...when I want to feel the real Leica quality and an uncluttered viewfinder I'm always glad to have the older one!

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 14, 2001.

I was recently in the same position that you are in. I had an M-4 on lay-away and I was paying it off month by month. Then I discovered that I could get an M-6 for the same price. I realized that the M-4 was more valuable as a collectors item than as a "user". As much as I respect the importance of the M-4 as an item of value and a very functional camera,the prospect of buying a similar- but newer- camera with not just a meter, but bright-line finders for 28-135 lenses, was too much to resist. I went for the M-6. I think that the best advise, however, is from the previous respondants who suggest that you keep the M-4 and get the M-6 anyway. Boy, It's a good thing that we're not too obsessive about Leicas, eh? Good Luck, Pat

-- Pat Dunsworth (pdunsworth@aryarch.com), December 15, 2001.

I use both the M4 and the M6. While the M6 meter is often convenient, it also gets in the way - distracting lights. It's a relief to go back to the simple finder of the M4 and work with just an incident meter. Typically I use the M4 with b&w film, where critical metering is not usually necessary. I use the M6 with slide film, where careful metering is more important due to the film's less-forgiving latitude.

Of course I could just remove the batteries from the M6. But 1) there's a difference in feel, 2) as long as I use 2 different types of film I might as well stick with the 2 cameras, and 3) I have the M4 as a backup, too. I enjoy the M4 despite the M6 meter, and I would not get rid of the M4 if I were in your shoes.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), December 15, 2001.

Robert,

You write that you have used (owned?) a few leica models over the years, which may indicate that you have not experienced the same regret about parting with a Leica, like many contributers in this forum has.
If this is correct, I think you should go ahead and sell your M4 and buy a M6 if you miss a build in meter. It may be nice if you can afford owning both, but I personally don't like to have rarely used equipment lying around if someone can make good use of it.

I may add that I am a M4 user myself, and that I switched from Nikon less than half a year ago. I expected that a lightmeter would be a nessesary companinon at all times, but as it turns out, I am pretty good at evaluating light without it, and since I use a very forgiving chromogenic B&W film, I don't even bring a meter anymore.

Re. price: eBay is the best place to check the going rate if you are located in the US.

-- Niels H. S. Nielsen (nhsn@ruc.dk), December 15, 2001.

I used to have an M4-P but I can't say I noticed any different feel from my M6. Was the M4-P less well built than the M4?

The M6 with the meter is extremely convenient and I have noticed that my low light and contre jour negs are much better than when I used a hand held meter. I only use B&W chromogenic.

-- Tony Brookes (gdz00@lineone.net), December 15, 2001.

I must agree with the majority, to sell the M4 in favour of the M6 would be a big mistake. What SLR do you use? - there's a big difference in ease of use with a high tech auto do everything for you metering system and the manual only set it yourself M6 meter. Having tried an M6 I much prefer using a seperate manual incidence meter in combination with my M4P. The M6 just cannot compare to the M4 and its ilk, if you have a good one enjoy the superior quality and hold onto it!

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 15, 2001.

do not sell your M4! having a built-in meter won't provide a big convenience as you might think! i have an M6 and i'm seriously considering an incident meter purchase because i find it more practical in most situations...

-- Dexter Legaspi (dalegaspi@hotmail.com), December 15, 2001.

According to Don Goldberg (DAG), the M5 was the beginning of quality reduction on Leica M's. The M4-P is closer to the M6 in quality than the M4 (which is the last of the cost-no-object M's).

-- Bud (budcook@attglobal.net), December 15, 2001.

"Was the M4-P less well built than the M4?" Yes, I think so. My understanding is that the M4-P was an economy version which dropped the self timer, engraved top plate, and went to plastic "vulcanite." The brass gears of the M4 were changed to steel, and the feel of the winder lost some of it's silkiness. Overall, the M4 has more a handcrafted machine-as-art aspect; the M4-P a mass produced object with the same utility, but less aura. As a result, there is now a collectors' premium associated with the pricing of the M4. Before they were stolen years ago, I had a pair of M4s. I'm now quite happy with an M4-P and an M6 "classic." Consider the Voigtlander meters, which are now about $150.

-- Phil Stiles (Stiles@metrocast.net), December 15, 2001.

The M4 has more internal adjustments than M4-2 and later bodies. An M6 whose parts were carefully checked for tolerances will be just as tightly spec'd as an M4 that has been tuned-up by a trained techician. If the M6 assembler wasn't paying attention, or your M4 gets CLA'd by a less competent technician, then either will be sub- par. With lots of vibration the M4 is more likely to go out of adjustment than an M6. The M4's brass gears feel smoother but the M6 can accept the modern winder. You could have the M6 framelines added to the M4, so it really does come down to the meter.

I still have my M4 from 1970, it's had a CLA not too long ago and a rubber M6 eyepiece. I'll never sell it. But I use my M6's mostly, and if I had only one body it'd be the M6. Robert, if you don't have to sell the M4 to get the M6, don't.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), December 15, 2001.

Definitely hang on to the M4. I use M6's, but I know that I lose a lot of crucial pictures just because I don't have an engraved top- plate. And the built-in meter - I just can't concentrate on the picture with those leds flashing on and off. I've gone to just leaving the batteries out and using a handheld meter. There's no doubt I'd take better pictures if my film advance was silkier as well. All said and done, the M6 is a compromised piece of modern junk with a plastic film counter and a whole bunch of other "improvements" which just get in the way of the pure vision of the Leica photographer. I envy you your camera.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 15, 2001.

I decided a few years back I was going to upgrade to an M6 from my M3 because of the lack of a built in meter. I made the mistake of not handeling an M6 in person, and just figured it would be "just like my M3 but with a meter and a bit less viewfinder mag". I was not as taken with the M6 as many users at this site are. it didn't feel as well made as my M3, the shutter release was not a s smooth or quiet, the winding had a loose, plasticy feel compared to M3, the doubling up of frame lines was distracting to me, and the finder flared badly in back lit situations. I also didn't find the newer loading system to be any great improvement. Note: If I hadn't been shooting with the M3, I likely would not have been so critical of the M6-and I also have a really good sample of the M3. The clincher was when I when out and shot together comparing the M6 and M3 with clipon meter, I got exactly the same meter reading in nearly every scene I metered. Keep the M4!

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), December 15, 2001.

If you find that a meter in the camera would suit your needs better than a separate meter, go for the M6. They're both just cameras, not objets'd'art or any of that nonsense. Obsessing over build quality is fine if you're a collector, but if you're shooting it doesn't make a damn bit of difference ... Both are extremely well made, well built cameras.

M4s are pulling a good price right now, a few completed Ebay auctions seem to average out between $1000 and $1200 for them.

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), December 15, 2001.

Rob, LOL

:-D

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), December 15, 2001.

I think Rob that the engraved top plates act as a diffuser compared to the glaringly plain top plate of the M6. I find that after a judicious application of 120 grit sandpaper, the negs from the M6 are just as good as those from my M2. :-)

Seriously though, if you are interested in photography, get the body that does what you want it to do. I have a M2 with a MR-4 meter and a M6TTL. Regardless of the above litanies of woe regarding the M6, it is my first choice to actually photograph with.

When I am using both bodies, I just meter with the M6 and trandfer the readings to the M2. I think that people tend to meter too much. Take a light and shadow reading and forget about the meter until the light changes. It is nice to have negs with consistent densities.

The M6 (and M4-2 and up) cameras require several hundreds of rolls and a good CLA to fully bed in. Then the steel wind gears mesh well and feel nice and smooth. They also seem to have been rather light on the lubricant and a good (wet) CLA quietens things down a fair bit.

I do not find the rangefinder flaring to be a problem in actual shooting. There are two kinds of rangefinder flare. The first is when light from the side causes the rangefinder patch or whole finder image to flare out. ALL my M cameras can have this happen. The second is when your eye is not correctly centered in the finder and the rangefinder patch flares out. Only my M6 has this problem but it is easily corrected by centering your eye. again. Again in actual shooting I do not find it to be a problem.

I also do not find the multiple finder frames or metering diodes to be a problem when actually concentrating on the subject. I find I just see the subject, background and the frame I want. I have never had any problems.

So, if you are a collector or closet camera fondler, get whatever it is that gets you off. If you are a shooter get whatever is comfortable for you. Different people like different things, one camera is not better than another. Perhaps just better suited to a particular person...

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), December 15, 2001.

Why not try this. Take your M-4 with your favorit lens 10 crisp $100 bills to your local Leica dealer. Place every thing on the counter. Put your lens on the new M-6 focus trip the shutter advance the film feel the weight the balance be sure to look very carefully at the top plate.Also pay close attention to quality and workmanship. Now repeat the above items on your M-4. Repeat the above exersize several times. Then think about what you are about to give up and how much you are going to pay for a TTL light meter. Now take your M-4 and your money and go home. Buy some film take some pics and be happy you own one of the finest cameras ever built and they are not going to build any more like it.

-- Al Henry (J Henry@provide.net), December 15, 2001.

Sell your SLR´s, and get the M6, and live life up!

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), December 15, 2001.

I want to thank everyone for their comments. I think I have to agree with the majority that I would really be best served by shooting pictures instead of obsessing over the equipment. Down the road I will probably look to purchase a nice user M6 and try them both out. I do use my equipment, just not as much lately. Maybe I will shift my emphasis from my SLR gear and get rid of most of that gear, just keep one body and a couple of lenses to compliment the leica, and have two leica bodies. Again thanks to everyone for there comments. Now I'm going to go out and take some pictures.

-- Rob Steinberg (rstein@erols.com), December 15, 2001.

As many of the above answers indicate, the choice is between camera- as-object and camera-as-tool. The M4 is probably built a bit better than the M6 and definitely does have a slightly better feel. However, I find any 35mm camera w/o a built-in meter stifling to the spontaneous nature of 35mm shooting. At one time or another I've owned every M from M2 to M6 and I find the meter to be a highly welcome addition. I now own an R8 and the extra automation is an asset to my 35mm photography.

Of course, there are many people who feel very differently about this. And if their methods work for them, great. For me, however, the ability to put the camera to my eye in "A" mode, focus and shoot, without having to so much as turn a shutter speed wheel, then shoot again without even having to wind, is very liberating. The R8 allows me the precise amount of interaction with the camera that feels comfortable--no more, no less.

-- Peter Hughes (ravenart@pacbell.net), December 15, 2001.

My recommendation is NEVER to sell any of your Leica equipment - lenses, bodies, anything; you will kick yourself later. My biggest regret, photographically speaking, is selling photo gear. FWIW

-- David (pagedt@chartertn.net), December 15, 2001.

More than one person on this forum, me included, has come to the conclusion that any monetary benefit of selling off one piece of gear to acquire another is a short lived benefit. I have sold three M3s, a M4 and a M2R... I made a good profit and was happy for the short term.

Years later, I am still plugging away with Leica gear, M6s bought new, but I always miss those classic cameras that are long gone. The money received in their sale means nothing today, but they are still gone forever. I even miss my "inferior" older lenses which were sold to buy newer glass. Looking at old photos made with the sold-off optics reminds me that I can't replicate that "look" with the new gear. Today I have a personal policy...Never sell any Leica gear!

Get the money for the M6 by making some sacrifice in other areas of your life. In five years, you'll be shooting with the M6, and happily enjoying the M4 for the classic that it is.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), December 15, 2001.

You know, I hear all this "missing that camera" "regretted selling it" stuff. I've bought and sold hundreds of cameras over the past 32 years. Some were pretty nice, some were dogs. Funny thing is that there are hundreds of them out there if you want one again.

I guess I'm just not sentimental about the tools at all. I like them but they hold no weight for me.

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), December 15, 2001.

To Peter: I find that just the opposite is true, at least for me. I find the on-board meter with LEDs in the viewfinder distracting. I shoot more spontaneously with an old, scratched up M2. I even use an accessory finder sometimes with a 35mm lens. Nice, bright and totally unobstructed. Of course, I'm speaking of B&W street stuff. I will say that with the M6 when I look at the proof sheet practically all exposures are dead on the money. I find that shooting "spontaneously", so to speak, with the M2 I will lose shots now and then because of a bad exposure. But the feel of the M2 is so nice and the shutter button is so soft and quiet I love using it. I think sometimes people oversimplify this Leica as object versus Leica as tool thing. The small percentage of photographers who truly think of their cameras only in utilitarian terms are not, in my opinion, the type to particiapate in a forum such as this. There is a certain elitist thing about using a Leica, no doubt about it. But I truly enjoy using them M6s and M2s alike. Now if I could only learn the super secret Leica owners' handshake...

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), December 15, 2001.

Two random thoughts:

1. It is better to be biased against selling a good, functional, piece of Leica equipment.

2. If you buy an M6, buy a new one as this will help Leica GmbH's bottom line and keep things going for all of us other Leica lovers.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), December 15, 2001.

John, I'll try the sandpaper trick.

Actually I often think the chrome M4 is the coolest Leica of the lot. Beautiful styling, somewhere between the '50s and the '90s. I'd love to have one just for black and white. But in the end the M6 is more practical, IMO.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 17, 2001.

Robert,

The M6 is a fine camera, but they add a hell of a lot of money for a light meter!!! If you know how to use an incident meter, KEEP the M4!! It's precision machinery and the added frame lines of the M6 IMO are not worth the switch (do you REALLY need 75mm frame lines?).

The M4 will serve you well for years to come!

-- Toddd Phillips (toddvphillips@webtv.net), December 17, 2001.

While I understand the sentiment associated with the M4, I have to say I'm solidly on the other side of the fence on this issue. I've had two M4's and an M3 in my life. I now own nothing but M6's.

I've never regretted selling the older bodies. The M6's are just more functional due to the meter. I finally sold my last M4 when I finally got fed up with too many missed exposures. Inlike others who dislike the meter LEDs, I find them an invaluable reminder to think about exposure. If you're using an M4 and you're concentrating on your subject, and the light changes a stop or so, it's an easy thing to miss. I have a lot less of the light-table blues with the M6.

As soft and buttery and smooth as they feel, I would never go back to an M4. The only attraction they hold for me is nostalgia, and I'd rather have better exposures instead.

-- Paul Chefurka (paul@chefurka.com), December 18, 2001.