First post seems to have problems ... here it is again

Well, after the big debate on Ghouls & ghosts in a previous post, and after the recent 1 million+ input on the clone daimakai (finished with only 1 life and massive repetition of last level), I think it is time to vote

I've tried to gather all proposals (tell me if I forgot one) : (a) keep scoring at it is (b) score + 1000000x(nb lifes left if game finished) (c) score + 1000000x(nb lifes left if game finished except life earned in a pot) (d) score + 1000000x(8-nb deaths if game finished) (e) big bonus 1000000 for those who do not die at the end of finishing, and a lesser bonus 7500000/500000/250000 (for those who lose 1/2/3 lives during the game but still finish)

-- phil (plamat@club-internet.fr), December 15, 2001

Answers

And my vote goes to B (the easier for confirmers : only have to watch end of inp ; and I think a finished game with 4 or 5 lives remaining will be unbeatable with repetition of last level)

-- phil (plamat@club-internet.fr)), December 15, 2001.

Phil, thanks for taking the matter up once again! I'm sorry that no one seems to realize how important this issue is as well as its relevance for all those games that do not have a life-bonus at the end... This would entail a thorough revision of the scoring systems of loads and loads of games, so this is perhaps the reason why this issue has been passed over in silence by those in charge... On Mark Longridge's page I once read something like "videogames are finally an exact science"... I think that too many games are currently as far from being an "exact science" as you can get...

Back to your proposals now: I still think the 2 rules I put forward in that past message are the best solution, BUT for the time being I also vote for (b), as it's better than nothing and we might refine it in the future if problems should arise.

...BUT PLEASE, PEOPLE, DO VOTE!!!!

Michele

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), December 15, 2001.

Seems fair, i vote for (b).

-- Blost (blost@mail.com), December 17, 2001.

Phil, unfortunately your proposal (which I overhastily accepted) is no longer viable because we forgot a crucial fact: the life-display at the bottom of the screen only shows up to 4 lives and therefore if you only watch the end of the inp file you cannot know how many lives player actually has at the end...

Let's take an actual case for the sake of clarity, i.e. my 276,900 inp. At the end, the on-screen display shows 4 lives beside the one I actually used. From my score you see that I MIGHT have a maximum of 8 lives left (the 3 initial ones plus those won at 30k, 60k, 130k, 200k, 270k), but since the display only shows 4 lives and since you don't know if and how many times I died (because you haven't seen the whole inp), you cannot draw definite conclusions: I MIGHT have died one, two or even three times (or never, as is the case) and you couldn't tell...

The upshot is that the inp file MUST be seen from the beginning through to the end, so that you know exactly how many times (if any) player has died. At this point, you may as well take notice of the score player has made by the (first!) end of 5th level of round 2, so that you can subtract the points undeservedly earned in the possible repetition(s) of the level.

Michele

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), December 17, 2001.

(B)!!!!!

-- INNUENDO (cihadade@bol.com.br), December 17, 2001.

I vote b

-- Lagavulin (darre@noos.fr), December 17, 2001.

"[...] and I think a finished game with 4 or 5 lives remaining will be unbeatable with repetition of last level"

The point you're missing is that repetition of last level can give player a very high number of remaining lives: check my new Daimakaimura upload, where actual score is 2,224,700 and remaining lives are 30. According to your rule b, my score should be 32,224,700... D'ya think anybody will ever beat that?

Michele

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), December 20, 2001.

I think all of the choices/proposals have a "repeating last level" problem. Maybe just DQ a recording if it repeats the last level? the last level never gets harder so why should stamina playing a monotonous sequence deserve more points? and if you fu** up not getting the magic weapon and armour which seem to appear a hell of a lot of times, then it's your fault for not getting it the second time around, so start the recording over again to maximize the points in earlier levels.

-- Chad (churritz@crash.cts.com), December 20, 2001.

I'd say the scoring system should just be the score at the end of the FIRST time through the final level, plus 1M * number of lives remaining at that point.

-- dissolute city (mdenham@coinet.com), December 21, 2001.

Hell ... Michele, your input prooves us we all were wrong voting B ; in fact I'm afraid scores based on remaining lifes is no long a good choice

So I think we must reopen the debate and revote ; I had this new idea : (f) score + 1000000x(8-nb deaths if game finished), and A REPETITION OF LAST LEVEL WILL BE COUNTED AS 1 DEATH

What do you think ?

-- phil (plamat@club-internet.fr), December 21, 2001.

Well, I’m still convinced the rules I proposed in that past thread ("GhnGh: who's the best?")) offer the most satisfactory solution... WITH THE PROVISO THAT inp files are watched from the beginning through to the end (no panic: we are not talking about endless marathon games, as the rules below make them quite pointless). If the latter condition is acceptable (note that I just don’t know how confirmers do their job, i.e. if they are accustomed to watch the whole inp or just its final part), read further and tell me what you think...

I formulate the special rules as follows:

Rule 1. Player is awarded a 1 million point bonus for each remaining life at the end of the game. The bonus life occasionally found in a pot (the little knight icon) does not count.

Rule 2. Points collected in the iteration of 5th level of round 2 do not count and must be subtracted from player’s final score (no panic: this operation is absolutely straightforward, see below). Possible bonus lives resulting from these points do not count for the 1 million bonus.

Confirmers need not watch an inp file more than once (as someone said): ALL they have to do is take notice of how many times player dies and how many points player has at the end of 5th level of round 2. If then player manages to finish the game (no matters after how many iterations of 5th level), 10k points (= Lucifer) will be added. Also, confirmers need not check whether or not player has collected the ‘pot life’ because the 1 million bonus is directly calculated from score: bonus lives are in fact won at 30k, 60k, 130k, 200k, 270k, 340k (ecc.). Let’s assume a player finished the game with score 215k and died 5 times, then he will have 2 spare lives at the end (7 – 5) and his definitive score will therefore be 2,215,000 (note that the maximum amount of spare lives at the end of the game is 8: if you never die you can get more than 270k but no more than 340k. Actually no more than 300k).

Let’s now examine a few actual cases, starting from Olympiad winner François Daniel’s game. His actual score is 339,900 pts. After defeating for the first time 5th level boss in round 2 he had 296,100 pts and since he eventually managed to finish the game we must add 10k, which gives 306,100 pts. He died 8 times and since he originally earned 339,900 pts he must have won 5 bonus lives (he missed the 6th for just 100 pts) which added to the 3 initial lives give a total of 8 lives. Then, 8 minus 8 equals 0, meaning that he will be awarded no million bonus: his definitive score is 306,100 pts. This seeming contradiction (he did have one life at the end) is explained by the fact that he must have collected the ‘pot life’ (note that I can’t recall if he really did, but I know for sure he did).

Blost’s score, 250,900 pts, is more straightforward: he died twice and did not iterate 5th level of round 2. From his score I infer that he must have collected 7 lives (including the 3 initial ones). Then, 7 minus 2 equals 5. His definitive score will be 5,250,900.

My own (currently deleted) score, 276,900 pts: I did not die nor iterate 5th level of round 2. I had 8 spare lives at the end of the game. My definitive score will be 8,276,900.

Michele

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), December 21, 2001.

Hi all

It seems i'm here just in time :-)

I think if we use a bonus points for life, we must apply the death (minus points)rule. If we count the repetition of last stage, we must apply the bonus points for life rule. If we don't count the repetition of last stage, we don't count any new rules.

The only thing we don't like is the endless repetition, not the fact we died more or less time than another player.

I said DQ scores for repetition of the last stage (or not count the points for the repetitions), thats all. If not, we must apply any other rule for all games without bonus for extra lives.

Also, I think its denaturing scoring system to add (or remove) points for Extra lives or deaths.

Finally, why we don't use this rule : 1 life and only one by credit without repetition of the last stage. Or only the 3 starting lifes ?

François

-- Francois Daniel (francois-daniel@libertysurf.fr), December 27, 2001.

Hi François,

Your post calls for a few remarks:

"The only thing we don't like is the endless repetition, not the fact we died more or less time than another player."

MKL: The repetiton (even just one!) is no doubt a major problem. But so is the fact that player dies more or less times because worse player gets more points as a result of his own mistakes. Of course, the latter problem is inherent not just to Ghouls but to any other game that does not have a life-bonus at the end. Therefore, the rules we are discussing here should be applied to all those games that have the same problem as Ghouls (I think they're an awful lot).

"I said DQ scores for repetition of the last stage (or not count the points for the repetitions), thats all."

MKL: OK, but the other problem I just pointed out would remain...

"If not, we must apply any other rule for all games without bonus for extra lives."

MKL: exactly.

"Also, I think its denaturing scoring system to add (or remove) points for Extra lives or deaths."

MKL: The truth is that the games without life-bonus are not suitable for hi-score purposes. To make them suitable we have to make ad hoc rules.

"Finally, why we don't use this rule : 1 life and only one by credit without repetition of the last stage. Or only the 3 starting lifes ?"

MKL: This would not do, as very few people can finish the game on one life (or three for that matter)... it would become an elitist game and most players would be discouraged from playing it.

A real alternative is this: points from repetition are not counted and only actual points count, without any sort of bonus. In order to get maximum points best players will have to die on purpose in some strategic areas. It goes without saying that best players will finish the game on their *last* life, because they will have wasted all the other ones to get more points. This strategy does require skill, that's why this proposal should be taken into account. Of course, this holds for all other games without a life-bonus at the end... The game-finished-with-one-life attitude has no longer reason to exist for such games. Sadly...

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), December 28, 2001.

I don't understand these arbitrary arthimetics. Why not just have it 5 lives only? Score is the score at the 5th death, same as Q*bert or Joust. Eventually the player is going to make a mistake. The reason the game is de-generating into a marathon is because of the endless extra lives. Remove this and you remove the problem.

My 2 cents.

-- Mark Longridge (zero1@look.ca), December 28, 2001.

If I understand correctly, your proposal is that player starts with 5 lives at his disposal and only uses those but is allowed to repeat last level of round 2. You say that this would prevent from having overlong games because player would eventually lose the 5 lives.

If you watch the inp I recently uploaded (romset ghoulsj) you'll find out that I've lost my first life at 500k and eventually scored 2,224,700 points with only 6 lives lost... For your information, the inp lasts around 8 hours...

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), December 28, 2001.

Hello

>A real alternative is this: points from repetition are not counted and only actual points count, without any sort of bonus.

I agreed

>In order to get maximum points best players will have to die on purpose in some strategic areas. It goes without saying that best players will finish the game on their *last* life, because they will have wasted all the other ones to get more points. This strategy does require skill, that's why this proposal should be taken into account.

I think the same. Leeching is a matter of skill. For Rygar, only the bests players can lose all lives safe one on stage 17 and finish the 10 stages who follow. For Ghouls, I don't really think we can get many lives with standard leeching. So, we must have only the best strategy.

>Of course, this holds for all other games without a life-bonus at the end...

As for Rygar :-)

>The game-finished-with-one-life attitude has no longer reason to exist for such games. Sadly...

Yes its sad :-( Because of that, in our french scoring News Group 'news://news.zoo-logique.org/jeuxvideo.records', we use the rule I'd apply in the Olympiads : ranking are made by stage reach then by score. So, only players who finished a game are in the 1st place.

So, now, what we made for Ghouls ?

François

-- Francois Daniel (francois-daniel@libertysurf.fr), December 30, 2001.

Just one rule: points from voluntary or involuntary repetition of 5th level of round 2 are not counted.

(Predictably, highest scores will be around 450k)

Michele

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), January 02, 2002.

Yes, I think its the better thing to made. How we proceed to make the changes.

François

-- FD (francois-daniel@libertysurf.fr), January 03, 2002.

A Vote, winning vote, and then a retallying of the new scores of the recordings sent to an editor would impliment the scheme. There are more questions to be answered, what qualifies "involentary" repetition? What if you're on the first repeat but seem to miss the special weapon/armour, how will the confirmer know to count that repetition or not, there's a lot of grey area in determining if someone intentionally missed the special stuff in order to get one more repetition. Or does involentary repetition mean you only count one cycle, but if they do repeat which of the repetitioned cycles do you count, the first, second, last, lowest, highest, etc...?

-- Chad (churritz@crash.cts.com), January 04, 2002.

What I meant is that the points collected in the repetition should not be counted, no matter if the repetition itself is voluntary or not. This means that the score counter should be stopped when player first gets the key of 5th level of round 2. If he manages to finish the game (no matter after how many repetitions), then 10k points (= Lucifer) are added.

A confirmer just has to take notice of the score at the end of 5th level of round 2 and see if the game has been finished.

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), January 04, 2002.

I agreed with Michele.

François

-- FD (francois-daniel@libertysurf.fr), January 06, 2002.

good deal. only two repetitions allowed. and i guess if you fail to have the weapon you don't get the lucifer bonus, and your score stops, sounds reasonable.

-- Chad (churritz@crash.cts.com), January 06, 2002.

Good! Let's make it operative, then.

-- MKL (m_nassivera@yahoo.it), January 07, 2002.