It seems like the "Tony R: Please help" thread has really shown some people for what they are. Instead of posting his thoughts for all to see to anyone who might dare disagree with him Bob Todrick chose to send me a personal email as below:

"Hey you self-righteous jerk - EAT S**T"

Well Bob, now we know how you actually think and how much your opinion should be valued. It seems all the fears expressed in the above thread regarding the removal of Alfie were not unfounded.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 19, 2001

Answers

I think all the fears expressed in the above thread regarding the removal of Alfie were absolutely not unfounded. Interesting to see that Tony actually just did delete that last story about the luminous socket and cat stuff. Tony is of course the moderator but the fairest of them all.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), December 19, 2001.

This is beginning to make the adolescents I taught for 30 years seem sophisticated by comparison. Have we begun to self-destruct?

-- John Myers (mymacv@aol.com), December 19, 2001.

I say that you two should meet at the tennis courts behind the school at 3:00pm. Then we'll see who's the toughest Leicaphile.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), December 19, 2001.

I would like to thank Tony for a wonderful job in a difficult situation. He tries to be fair and open but realizes that enough is enough in some instances. I in the beginnig I was a supporter of Alfie because I believe forums should be open to anyone with an approproate(sp) interest but in the end he just didn't get it. We were patient with him and offered him usefull advise but obviously there is something (a lot) wrong with him. Tony thanks again for doing a wonderful job keeping a great forum on course.

-- Gerry Widen (gwiden@alliancepartners.org), December 19, 2001.

Just can't help saying two things here (again, don't know if I should start off with "sorry" or not). (a) Although I (myself) somehow like Bob -- always got along good with him, anyhow -- I guess that personal mail he sent you isn't all that nice. (b) This is the perverse part: but maybe Bob's mail to you was originally created by Alfie's whole existence here.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), December 19, 2001.

No doubt this thread will be deleted but hopefully some will at least acknoledge like Michael that Bob's conduct is shameful. Unfoutunatly, I am beginning to have my doubts...

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 19, 2001.

Giles, yes, I did say that Bob's mail to you wasn't all that nice, but I wouldn't say that his conduct is all that shameful. I'm only afraid that his conduct is ummm... like he felt you pissed him off, so he decided to piss you off. This type of conduct is already ten thousand years old. But I would rather stick to Leica here.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), December 19, 2001.

Giles, it says something about you too. If you disagree with Bob's email to you, write him back and tell him so. Posting your complaint on the web isn't going to make you a better man than him.

-- Fred Sun (redsky3@yahoo.com), December 19, 2001.

Tony...scissors, please!

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), December 19, 2001.

The internet and forums are a relatively new way of communication. In the past we dealt with each on a local basis and if there were disagreements they were handled differently, face to face. People earned their reputations over time (good or bad)and they stayed with them. Today the internet and it's forums are open to anyone with their two cents to offer. These communities are constantly changing with new people coming some older participants leaving. I've seem forums where long time contributing members left for a spell and when they came back six months later half the community didn't know who they were. It takes a little getting used to. Sometimes because we are at a distance from each other it is easy to type a reaction to someone and press "submit" having second thoughts a moment later. That is why sometimes good members like Bob and Giles should be forgiven just as easily, especially when someone like Alfie comes into our little haven which is important to us and shakes it up.

-- Gerry Widen (gwiden@alliancepartners.org), December 19, 2001.

Fred, you have a fair point, however in this situation I felt posting this response was legitimate.

I would rather all discussion was limited to the open forum we have here, presumably Bob would not have posted the abusive response to me for all to see?

By the way, I have received an email from Alfie, here are some excerpts:

"...I admit not being the most mature photographer and was trying to learn in my sincerity to become a better Leica photographer. I admit being full of faults such as being headstrong and sometimes foolish and stubborn but that's part of my tenacity. After all, for me learning Leica photography is a challenge in itself...I appreciate your support during these tough times and hardships and enjoyed your kind and well-thought comments. All the same, I also feel that I need to spend more time on my photoessay...I hope that LUSENET will improve in the future and perhaps in many months I may rejoin the group when the childishness subsides. Thanks for being a good example to me and best of luck.

sincerely and Leicafully, Alfie (Albert)"

Is this the last word from Alfie? Who knows, he was at least honest, upfront and polite.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), December 19, 2001.

OK, have we had enough catharsis now?

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), December 19, 2001.

There hasn't been any catharsis here...just a polarisation of opinions. Not good.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), December 19, 2001.

I woke up in a sociology lecture once and heard the lecturer remark that under stress social groups tend to define themselves more by what they are not than by what they are. In other words, groups tighten ranks by exclusion. This is accomplished by individuals assigning increasing significance to smaller and smaller perceived differences between them.

When the “M” and “R” camps square off then we’ll know the end is near.

-- Jeff Stuart (jstuart1@tampabay.rr.com), December 19, 2001.

I think Bob was fair in that he sent you a personal email. Probably he felt that the matter was between you and him and was his attention in the first place of not involving others in this forum on his personal disagreement with you. Since you have brought the matter to the forum, I feel that you have in a way blow the issue out of its proportion. Whether it was OK for him to send you the nasty email is a topic for another day. Let's go and shoot some pictures.

-- WONG kh (DOSI@maxis.net.my), December 19, 2001.

Will they become like ourselves in time . . .?

I hope not . . .!

Wholehearted best wishes.

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), December 19, 2001.

Hey, anybody got any new pictures?

Or is it just more of this arguing about who is who?

Where's Tony when we need him?

Caution, Copyright 2001 Jeff Spirer

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), December 19, 2001.