Hello,

I've been using a M4-P for about a month now. I love the camera and the lenses. I'm still getting used to metering and guesstimating exposure using a small hand-held Gossen Pilot II. I'm finding that I'm getting much more accurate exposures using incident rather than reflective readings. I primarily shoot b&w. A question to those of you used to working with a non-metered Leica--how did (do) you meter with these cameras? What has been your experience in using reflective vs. incident metering? Do you have a preferred meter which seems well matched to your Leica and shooting style? Have any of you gone "meterless", and trained your eye to be your light meter?

As an aside, I'm quite comfortable using a spot meter for reflective readings with my view and medium format cameras. I really don't want to carry a bulky spot meter around while using my delightfully small Leica. :-)

Regards,

Sven

-- Sven S. (ssampson@inreach.com), December 19, 2001

Answers

The MR-4 meter is great. For B&W and negative color, just use the data sheet which comes with the film. It takes about a month of intensive shooting, and you won't even need a meter any more.

-- Wilhelm (bmitch@home.com), December 19, 2001.

Sven:

I don't think that it much matters what you use as long as you are familiar with it. Experience with the system you are using is much more important than the system that you are using.

For b & w, I use a spot meter with my M3. I have been using a spot meter for many years and I know what the results will be. I now have a 508 and it works well. It is different from my departed Pentax but the principle is the same.

For color film, I often use incident metering. I have an ol' L-398, which is really a studio meter. I have used it for a long time and I know its potential errors. For quick shooting, the M6 is better.

I know that people with a lot of experience and practice can learn to judge exposure. That isn't me. I am a control freak. I need a meter.

Once again, if you know your meter, it doesn't make much difference what it is.

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), December 19, 2001.

Sven, I was metering with hand-held meters long before I owned a camera with a built-in meter! I started with reflected light meters (Weston Master, GE, then back to a Weston Master; then on to the Leica-Meter MR). Later I added the Incident reading technique. I find the incident method fine as long as I can be sure that the light falling on the meter has the same intensity and direction as that falling on the subject. The reflected light method is fine as long as the subject isn't backlighted. If it is, and I want the right exposure on the frontally lit surface, I need an incident reading.

My most trusted handheld meters for incident light are my Spectra, or my Minolta digital Autometer. For reflected light, it's the Autometer with reflected light viewer (7 degree angle). For a compact meter, I'm learning to trust my new Gossen Luna-Pro Digital F.

But those are merely the ones I've become comfortable with. From your post, I'm not convinced you really need an equipment change. You may just need to make small adjustments to metering technique after each roll, until you're happy with the exposures. Then again, I'm not too familiar with the Pilot II. I wonder if its angle of acceptance is too wide, for someone accustomed to a spot meter; and that could be what's throwing your reflected readings off. You know, you could get a Leica-meter or one of the other small meters that fits in the hotshoe, having a small angle of acceptance (say 27 degrees, like the 90mm lens) and then use the 90mm finder frame to aim it for a selected area reading.

Well, that's the best I can do. Hope it helps.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), December 19, 2001.

I normally use 2 reflected light meters: a refurbished Leica-Meter MR & a modern Cosina Voigtlander VC. Both of these meters have fairly narrow reading angles (approx. same as a 90mm lens), so I try to keep the 18% gray rule in mind & aim @ an area in a scene that I want to be 18% gray. I like the fact that the MR holds readings & is easier to use while looking through the viewfinder, but it's bigger & not as accurate as the VC in low-light situations. The VC is smaller, more precise, & easier to use from waist-level. Both meters match my M2 & M3 aesthetically.

-- Chris Chen (furcafe@cris.com), December 19, 2001.

If you're having success with incident readings, my only suggestion would be to look at a small incident meter with better low-light capabilities than the Gossen. I use a Sekonic 318B and like its sensitivity and quick response, but there are others available.

-- Joe Brugger (jbrugger@pcez.com), December 19, 2001.

Canon A-1, Sekonic incident ligth meter, MR-4īs my latest and most sophisticated is a Minolta IV (I bougth it to use for flash studio ligthing).

When first have a SLR (Ricoh KR5)I used itīs manual meter and lear how to do it; then got a canon A-1, and set it in program mode and forgot about it; then my first leica came and began to use a sekonic for incident ligth readings; I used to play a lot with it, measuring diferent ligths and shadow areas and weather conditions, now I give my sekonic away and got a Minolta IV, but I hardly ever take it with me when Iīm doing B&W, just use my memory and I have learn to read ligth from interiors with artificial ligthing as well as available darkness; Iīm pretty acurate and from time to time I play against my IV, the problem is when dim and flat ligthing like deep shadows and high contrast, but for matter of material capabilities, if in a high contrast image you only need to rescue the high ligth areas it is no problem, but if you want both or blow the high ligths and save the shadows, you need to know your film pretty well, so the reason i only do tri-x; just got a M6 last week (my main cameras had been M3īs and M4Pīs); and Iīm having hard time using itīs meter, feel fine to set it as in my M3 and when rise point and shot be able to see those two arrows, but when i donīt I dude, I think Iīll remove the batīs some of this days.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), December 19, 2001.

I use a Sekonic 408 with my M3s, most of the time in incident mode. On a few occasions when I 've forgotten the meter or the battery ran low and I wasn't in the mood to get another one, I've successfully estimated exposures. Exposures are more consistent using the meter, but with negative film, I can get a pretty good exposure almost all the time using sunny 16 or familiarity with the conditions.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), December 19, 2001.

I have a slew of handheld meters, my favorite being the Sekonic L408 with its 5-degree spot, which I use 90% of the time with the Hasselblad for landscape photography. But most of those meters are almost as big as the Leica itself and juggling them both detracts from the convenience of a small 35mm camera. Evidently a lot of people are of like mind because Leica certainly went through a lot (Mr meters, M5 and CL) on the road to the M6. Of all, there are only 2 meters I endorse for the non-metered M's: the MR-4 and the Sekonic L208 Twin-Mate, because both can be used at eye-level making use of the 90mm framelines to aim the narrow-angle meter. What the MR-4 gains by being coupled to the shutter dial it gives up to the Sekonic in low-light sensitivity. BTW, you can purchase a shoe mount for the Gossen Pilot II, for about $6.00.

As to incident vs reflected, neither is more accurate if you know what the meter is reading, how the film reacts, and how to interpret the meter reading and base exposure on tonality, as opposed to simply following the meter blindly. Incident readings are also only good if you can stand in the same light as your subject, which is not always possible. It is always possible to take a reflected reading however.

I have owned one meter or another for most of my almost 35 years in photography, but there was a time at the beginning where my "meter" was the guide on the instruction sheet inside the film box (now they print it inside the box itself), basically the Sunny f/16 rule extrapolated for different light levels and direction. Even with slide film I rely on that many times when the scene lacks a middle tone of sufficient size to fill the meter circle. And I started out with a guess-focus medium-format camera (with precious little DOF), and I still find it satisfying to guess the focus and exposure and then check it against the rangefinder and meter. Most of the time I'm within about 1/2 stop and 6".

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), December 19, 2001.

For meterless exposure settings, here's a fun way to learn to place a value on ambient light. I call it the "countdown" method.

If we assume that light level increments are measured in "stops"(either f-stops or shutter-speed settings) the range of stops from "sunny-16", (i.e. fully lit subject in midday sun equals f/16 @ shutterspeed nearest 1/film-speed) to low-light indoor (just enough light to see good detail) is only about 10 stops. Although sunny-16 varies depending on film speed, the 10-stop range is constant. For example, an average overcast day is (more or less) always 4 stops more exposure than sunny-16.

I bought some inexpensive slide film and chose typical ambient light situations that cover the range of light during the day, such as sunrise/sunset; dawn/dusk; mid-morning/afternoon; dark , average or bright overcast; dark, average or bright indoor. In each situation I would bracket 10 shots, from sunny-16 to +10 stops. When I got the slides back, I marked each slide from each set with a number from 1- 10. For me, 10 was sunny-16 and 1 was overexposed 10. I put these in sleeves and studied them until I was able to determine which slides best represented each of my 10 values. Obviously, everyone will have their own opinion of the proper exposure for each situation.

I wrote up a chart of what ambient light situations worked for each number, since there is alot of overlap. One of the variables is whether your subject is well-lit, in shade or on deep shadow. Now, when I evaluate a subject, such as a street-scene on an overcast day, first I "count down" 4 stops from s-16, then determine if I feel like I need to over- or underexpose for the subject. Then I balance f/stop and shutter-speed to achieve desired depth of field and I'm ready to shoot.

All right, it sounds like underwater chess with floating chess pieces, but it doesn't take that long to get the hang of it. One advantage to all this is that when you see a photo in a magazine that lists the film-speed, shutter-speed and aperture, you can count-down to determine the approximate light level in that photo.

Even though I still use hand-held and TTL meters, this game has taught me more about evaluating light than any book. Besides, it's a great excuse for running a bunch of film through your camera. Good luck.

-- Pat Dunsworth (pdunsworth@aryarch.com), December 20, 2001.

Sven:

I use M4-P/2 bodies, too. I use a Sekonic L-318b meter. It is the size of a pack of cards, fits in any pocket I've ever tried without bulging, is roughly the weight of a 35 f/2 pre-ASPH lens, and has interchangeable heads for incident, or 40-degree reflected, or (with somewhat more bulk) 5-degree near-spot metering. The reflected-light head reads an area equivalent to the full frame of a 50mm lens, or the M6 meter using a 24/28.

Just to test - I'm sitting here typing right now with it in my pants pocket and can barely tell it's there. In my shirt pocket it is a lee- tle heavy, but still disappears with a quarter-inch to spare. Definitely just vanishes into a sport-coat or windbreaker pocket.

Incident readings, as you appear to know, are usually more consistent because they aren't affected by light or dark areas in the subject. The only time they fall down is if you are in different light than your subject and can't reasonably get to similar light for a reading - or when the light source is a part of the picture (sunsets, e.g.).

I also use the "Sunny f/16" rule a lot for unmetered shots - but find that I have use a 1-stop lower ISO for those estimates than I do with the meter. I.E. "Sunny f/11" works better for me on average. 8^)

I personally have never seen the benefit of buying a compact Leica RF and then making it the size of an SLR by sticking a meter on top. I reserve the accessory shoe for other things (21 finder, flash) as needed.

I don't use spot metering for 35mm - it just doesn't fit my pace/style/ subject matter. I appreciate what it does for larger formats, but that's "reflective" photography with a whole different meaning.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), December 20, 2001.

Oh... and to follow up on what Jay said - I do keep around a Fujichrome 400 film box panel for the list of "available light" subjects' exposures ("fireworks", "lighted buildings at night", etc.) for when I can't get access to a good meter reading. I extrapolate for slower films.

...and BRACKET slides when in doubt!

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), December 20, 2001.

I use my M4-P with a shoe-mount Voigtlander VC Meter. It's more convenient than a handheld meter and gives accurate exposure readings as long as you are aware of situations when a reflective meter is likely to be fooled.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), December 20, 2001.

Many thanks to all for sharing your thoughts. I think Bob had it right in his comment about the angle of acceptance being much wider than I am comfortable with using for reflective reading (~55 degrees). I think I would be a bit more comfortable with a meter that can take reflective readings at somewhere between 15 and 30 degrees. I do own a LunaPro, which I really like, but it is too large to carry around with my M4-P (for my tastes). The VC meter might be a good compromise.

Finally, I agree with the general commentary... shoot lots of film, look at your results and adjust as necessary.

Happy holidays!

Sven

-- Sven S. (ssampson@inreach.com), December 20, 2001.

Look at this website:

http://www.pinkheadedbug.com/techniques/exposure.html

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), December 27, 2001.

Boy, you guys are all masochists. The best solution is an MR-4 meter which fits in the hot shoe, couples to the shutter speed dial, and provides very reliable and reproducible readings. You can use the 90mm frame as a very good approximation to what is being metered. Just change the shutter speed, and the meter needle will indicate the proper f-stop for any indicated shutter speed.

Why anyone would want a non-coupled meter that doesn't lock its reading and works at waist level (the VC neter)is something I can't figure out, but apparently the VC is popular among posters on this website. I think the VC is very expensive, considering the little it does.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), December 28, 2001.