I'm feeling like quite a Scrooge, but I need to unload this, so I'm unloading on you kind folks. I've spent several days these past 2 weeks working in a local toys-for-kids program. The local folks buy new toys or clothes to donate, or donate money (with which new toys are purchased)for Christmas presents for needy children in our area. Each family that applies must fill out an application stating why they are in need and what the kids want. So far, this all sounds great to all of you I'm sure and you're thinking I'm a good person for volunteering to help and what's the problem any way?

Well, I don't think I agree with this whole thing. The kids get 20-30 gifts each. Now some are small, granted, but I would NEVER give my kids that much stuff....heck, where would they put it?! Don't get me wrong, I love my kids and they do get Christmas gifts, but not by the dozens. Christmas is a religious holiday that celibrates the birth of Christ and the spirit of giving. So I feel very strongly that this program over-does it dramatically and detrimentally.

My other beef is that the screening isn't very good. I know some of the families that are receiving presents and they aren't any better or worse off than we are. One of my daughter's best friends is in the program and she already has so much stuff they have to store excess in the shed out back...that's just the kids' toys!

What are we teaching these kids? That Christmas is a time of excess and commercialization. What kind of a position are we putting the parents in? If they are actually in a position of financial need, they will have a very difficult time getting out of this program because they will have to have a lot of spare cash to be able to get as much on their own as this program buys for their kids now.

I have been in a position of severe financial need before and I have accepted a Christmas gift from a toys-for-kids program, but it was one gift, not twenty. I made the rest of the gifts for my family that year, starting many months before the big day. I am not in that position now, but I still make many of the gifts that I give my family. I know that not everyone is creative or craft-wise, but most people have some talents that can be put forward as gifts. Am I being a Scrooge about this? What parameters would you put on a Christmas-for-kids program if you were designing one. I'm not signing my name or giving a proper e-mail address because this community strongly supports our Christmas-for-kids program and I'd probably be drummed out of town if they knew I was complaining about it!

-- I'd best not tell you my name (fakeaddress@scrooge.com), December 21, 2001

Answers

You are not alone in your concern. We have tried giving through public programs and being actively involved. We got some nasty surprises too. It sounds like the one in your town really goes overboard. We have always had a pretty low Christmas budget, even in years when it wasn't necessary. More than a few gifts per child is just plain nuts. Public programs shouldn't contribute to the making of overconsumers.

-- Dianne Wood (woodgoat@pacifier.com), December 21, 2001.

My mum (over here in the uk) still has the marbles that came in her U.S. Red Cross parcel during the second world war! They came with a cardboard game that involved dressing a cut-out doll in different clothes. These are how times have changed! Our local newspaper runs a gifts-for-the-needy scheme every Christmas, but it's not just for kids and teenagers, but for the elderly, homeless, single mums on income support etc. This way the volume of presents received is diversified. They are distributed via local charities, who make sure the most needy receive them 'cause they are already in contact with them. Hope this helps!

-- Katherine Dakin (katherinedakin@aol.com), December 21, 2001.

I wholeheartedly AGREE. We looked at the angel tree in our local Wal- Mart. The kids were asking for such things as bikes, stereos, and Nintendo GAMES (which tells me they already have the Nintendo). I'm sorry but I can't afford these things for my own children much less for someone that I don't even know. I think if they were asking strangers for gifts they would at least ask for something simple and not so costly. If they are really that bad off financially they should appreciate anything that is given to them. My concern is that these people in this program are in more programs where they get even more stuff. You have the angel trees, the Marines Toys For Tots, local churches, and several others. And I have been told that there is nothing to keep people from signing up for every program available. The sad thing is a hand full of people get way too much but there are still others that fall thru the cracks and get nothing. These are the ones working to provide for themselves so they aren't on ANY welfare program. Which means their name isn't in the system. So... don't think you are the only one that feels this way there are many more that are getting frustrated with the system.

-- Lou Ann in KY (homes_cool@msn.com), December 21, 2001.

That's as bad as the chain that gives $100 to needy kids for a shopping spree at their store for school when the $100 could go twice as far at Goodwill (which I think overprices by a lot) or 3-5 times as much at other thrift stores.

I think the best present for people in need is a concerted effort to break the cycle, not one day of excess.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 21, 2001.

Scrooge, :-)

I was at an auction the other day at our local fairgrounds. It was also the day that folks came to pick up toys for their kids through a program like the one you described. I was appalled at the well dressed folks who showed up, in cars much nicer than mine, to pick up literally yard sized trash bags full of new toys for their kids. I was all lined up in a warehouse there, and it looked like a toys R us outlet. I'm sure many of these people were just 'working the system' to keep from having to spend money on Christmas presents.

Now, that said, what is Christmas really about? Giving. The people who gave those gifts were the people who received the real blessing. Whether or not the gifts were distributed fairly, the givers get the benefit either way. Many of those who gave may have been much worse off financially than those who received the presents. I'd say they were more blessed this Christmas, however.

I'm reminded of the story about the family who, upon hearing their pastor ask everyone to raise money to help a "poor family" in the church, scrimped and saved twenty dollars to contribute, only to find the proceeds of the offering delivered to their door once the offering was collected. They had contributed more than anyone else.

The same goes for the victims of the September 11th attack. However they end up dividing up the relief money, folks will probably argue until the cows come home about how unfairly it was done. The point that they are missing is that the GIVING of the relief funds has done vastly more to heal our land than the DISTRIBUTING of them will ever do. When we are able to see things from outside of ourselves, even for a minute, we get a glimpse of how God sees things, don't you think?

Food for thought...

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), December 21, 2001.

I don't think you're being a scrooge. Your concerns are very valid. Most of those type programs have alot of waste. They'd do more good to just give out a few gifts to each child and then put the rest of their effort and money into helping children all year round.

It sucks but yeah there's alot of greedy people signed up in those kind of programs who really don't need it. It's that way for almost all charity and government programs. I can easily visualize your daughters friend. In my experiences I've seen more people taking advantage of those things than people who truly needed them. Some people make a career out of signing up for as much charity and govt programs as they can, so they have more time to sit on their ass and watch tv. They don't even think twice about it. They could care less that there might be someone with more need that'll go without because of people like your daughters friend. I have no problem telling people like her what I think of them. Truly needy people don't sit on their fat ass all day yakking on the phone and watching tv talk shows.

There's also alot of truly needy people who have too much pride to consider those programs and they're mostly ignored. If you know of anyone like that, drop off a bag of groceries or a few gifts on their porch, they'll use it and your effort won't be gone to waste. I think it's better to avoid getting involved in those charity organizations and just go direct to the need.

Most homeless shelters are worthy and the people with kids living in them are generally truly in need of help and thankful for it.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 21, 2001.

Chuck said; "I'm reminded of the story about the family who, upon hearing their pastor ask everyone to raise money to help a "poor family" in the church, scrimped and saved twenty dollars to contribute, only to find the proceeds of the offering delivered to their door once the offering was collected. They had contributed more than anyone else."

Chuck, that's a great story. Thanks for sharing it.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), December 21, 2001.

I think that story is in the archives, but I can't find it. It was titled somthing like, " rich for a day". A great story. Anyone know where it is? I'd like to read it again. Thanks, L.A.

-- L.A. (lromsa@acres.com), December 21, 2001.

For several years now, I have volunteered with the salvation army during the holidays. Usually bell ringing, or packing food boxes, and delivering. Only this year, I adopted a young girl and her baby, and helped with passing out the toy boxes to families. I was appalled to find out that we had to screen families, because there were lots of families that were scamming the system! They had signed up at all of the agencies, red cross, etc.; and were picking up tons of gifts and food. There were families that had signed in that they had 6 kids in their household, but there were only 2! Makes my heart heavy. In His Grace, Sissy

-- Sissy Sylvester-Barth (iblong2Him@ilovejesus.net), December 21, 2001.

Last year we did the Secret Santa thing, where the local post office sets out the letters to Santa they had received and you could go through and read them, and pick a family in need. Yes, there were *plenty* of requests for high-dollar items like Gameboys, Nintendos, expensive athletic stuff, etc. I ignored those and selected the letters from single moms who were asking for clothes for their children, books, and modest things, and who ended their letters with "anything you can give". One of our choices was a single mom with 2 very young kids who was on the Welfare to Work program and was at least working.

-- gita (gita@directcon.net), December 21, 2001.

I'm just going to ditto everything that Chuck said! Thanks for writing it all out for me, Chuck! ;-)

-- Joy F {Southern Wisconsin} (CatFlunky@excite.com), December 21, 2001.

My dh worked for a church for quite a few years, about 1/2 the time doing the "front door ministry". A few really needy people, but lots of scams. My favorite was the man who came asking for money for school supplies. A bunch had just been donated so dh showed him & said take what you need. The man said no, what I really need is money for fresh fruit for the kids. No problem, said dh, we've got oranges, apples, grapefruit. No, said the man, I really need money for the bus. Sure, said dh, I'll give you a pass. At this the man got very angry and yelled, "You guys NEVER help me!" and stomped out of the office.

-- Bonnie (stichart@plix.com), December 21, 2001.

It's not just Christmas time--it's year round! Several years ago when my son swam US Swimming, our team offered a 'scholarship' type program for kids who wanted to swim but just didn't have the funds. I was on the board that decided--We had parents (of a young girl who had been swimming with us) apply said they just couldn't pay the dues and the travel fees. Because the young lady was a joy/ a leader type for the younger kids it was voted to put her on the scholarship program! WELL, two years later the team & parents were invite to a 'gathering' at their house. The house was 7500sq. ft. 6 bedroom/ 8 bath house! The mother exclaimed " the cabinets were made for us in Ohio and were didn't have to pay but $30,000 for them!"It had every bell and whistle you could ask for! And in the garage was a Jag! I was fit to be tied..... The coach took away her scholarship the next day! The board was madder than He--.

It happens everyday to all of us.

-- Debbie T in N.C. (rdtyner@mindspring.com), December 21, 2001.

The church I work for operates a food pantry, a social outreach ministry and also gives holiday food baskets for Thanksgiving and Christmas along with having a gift-giving tree. Because of all the scams and scoundrels we have had to go to a screening system where they have to fill out a application with address and such and then someone checks it out. We had one couple that was caught who were going to 5 different churches,the Salvation Army and a soup kitchen while their kids took dance lessons and skiing lessons and they themselves had jobs and were breeding Miniature Schnauzers on the side. Its just to bad that them type of people have to ruin what is meant to be a generous giving opportunity for people who have abundance and are willing to share with others.

-- TomK(mich) (tjk@cac.net), December 21, 2001.

My husband and I used to pick one family in our community and buy Christmas for them. We would buy a couple of gifts and shoes for each child and a box of groceries, including a ham or turkey. We also included and easy to read Bible. We hand picked our families each year because we wanted to find people that needed help, yet weren't out trying to pull a scam or were to proud to ask for help. We usually checked at the school to get an idea of a couple of families (the teachers know which parents seem to be helping with the children's homework, who shows up for conferences, if there has been a sudden change at home ect....) We would leave everything on the doorstop and leave or if my husband was dressed as Santa, then he would deliver them in person. We never let anyone know who we were or who it was from. Once we had 5 children of our own, it got too expensive to continue. Now my husband dresses up like Santa Claus and we hand out donated gifts to the children at our woman's shelter. As our children find our about Santa, they become elves and start going to help. This year we will have two elves going. They get as much out of it as we do. The children at the shelter do seem to get a lot, but we were told that they can only stay at the shelter a certain time and that the kids may never see another Christmas like this, so they tend to go overboard. I don't know if I agree or not, but I'm not there to judge, just to make sure Santa has a ride home lol. It really makes you realize what you have. The ones scamming, will get theres in the long run. I hope each of you have a safe and happy holiday!!! Lisa B.

-- Lisa B. (j5diecast@aol.com), December 21, 2001.

This very subject has been weighing on my mind. I have a friend that is getting a divorce. She has an eleven year old daughter. Her daughter ask for a bike and vcr. A couple of relatives volenteered to gets these gifts, her dad and both sides of the family will be buying gifts for this child and her mother went to TWO organizations to get on their gift lists. They've had a hard year but what does this teach this child about living within your means. I have just been sickened by this whole scenario as I have seen it being played out for the past month.

-- sherry (chickadee259@yahoo.com), December 21, 2001.

Here is my theory on "giving to the poor" - I give as much as I can, when and where I can, either in time or in money. I let my giving be determined by my personal beliefs and my pocketbook. I let what I give, go to whoever asks for it. My conscience is clear, I have followed by religious beliefs - the receiver of my gifts must deal with their own conscience! When approached for "money for a cup of coffee or food" in our downtown area - I finally took to carrying some of those cheese/peanut butter crackers in my backpack and handing those over - these are always elderly "gentlemen" who have a reputation for buying cheap booze and laying in alleys! I try to help them also, but in the form of a simple snack! They always smile and say thank you! Basically, I try to just be thankful I have not been in the position of having to be so humble (or greedy) to have to ask for help! Happy Holidays Ya'All!

-- Daisy (shaferd@msn.com), December 21, 2001.

My husband is a very enthusiastic teacher who likes to arrange lots of activities for the children in his class, but his latest invitation for a Roman Soldier to come and speak to them was obviously too much for some parents. They started to complain about the £2 per child charge (there was funding for parents who couldn't afford it) on top of all the other activities he had arranged that year. But the people who were complaining were the ones in the huge houses who got a BMW for their birthday. One family with however many children, a low income and a council estate house, duly stumped up the cash without complaining, or applying for the funding. Some statistics have been released over here that show those less well off contribute roughly double (proportion of their income) to the rich. It's an odd world.

-- Kath (katherinedakin@aol.com), December 22, 2001.

Sounds to me that alot of the blame lies at the doors of the charities themselves. Who was the brilliant person in your program who decided each child was going to get that much? Did they justify it to you?

We are besieged on all sides to give, give, give, and then what happens? Look at the American Red Cross WTC debacle. They still have $680 MILLION dollars to hand out to the victims of 9/11, and it can ONLY be used for those people. That will be, of course, additional to anything the government gives them . . . At last count, that was less than 4000 people killed, btw, so there's another $170,000 those families will get. The world has taken charity and gone nuts.

My favorite charity is my local NPR station. Helps me and educates the whole community.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), December 22, 2001.

Gt...We have both a Goodwill and Salvation Army thrift store close by (15 miles). I personally think Salvation Army has a larger variety of both new and used clothes at better prices. Also, they have furniture, toys, books, housewares, etc...

-- Cheri Asprion (t.asprion@worldnet.att.net), December 22, 2001.

If everyone invited a neighbor or two over for Christmas food and festivities, we could all share a little or a lot. The recipients could be needy or not. The givers could be wealthy or not. The fellowship part of it extends beyond the giving/getting stuff, perhaps. Of course, that would mean inviting types of folks that one normally might not consider...that big slob with all the broken cars in the yard; the gay couple who swish around all over the place; the unwed mom with all the millions of dirty-faced kids; the old smelly widower; the woman who thinks she knows it all; the family with the brats that tease animals....etc.

Eeeewww.. Why mess up our nice clean Holiday with such a disgusting idea...better to just give money to some charity and let them deal with it. If we don't like how they do it, we can always complain...

;-)

In this season, which (among other things) highlights the birth of Jesus, it might be interesting to think about how he might post back to this forum on this topic!

....but hey, the rest of us are just human. Stuff gripes me, too; especially when I'm feeling short-changed or stressed. (I'm a Scrooge sometimes, too! Hate it when I get that way, though!)

Blessings and sharing to all of you. There's enough to go around.

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), December 22, 2001.

Sheepish--Loved your post, it's something to think about--an act of real charity. Peace and blessings.

-- vicki in NW OH (thga76@aol.com), December 22, 2001.

Every year I take 2 candy canes from the bank. I take one for a boy age and one for a girl. The idea is to buy them a gift and return the gifts to the bank to be picked up by a charity. I have always felt good about doing this until this year.

This year the canycane had what gift to get written on it. I was appalled when I went to the toy store to get the gift written on each of the candycanes I bought. Each gift was $40.00 I thought about it for awhile and then decided to get something else (something I could afford) I spent $10.00 on each toy.

What really upset me was that one of the toys was for aa three month old girl and one was for a four year old boy. That tells me that a greedy parent decided how much I should spend on the gifts. I will never pick one of those candycanes from the bank again.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), December 23, 2001.

I do not think gifts should have strings attached. Expectations or stipulations attached to gift-giving are simply disguised methods of control of the giftee, not gifts given truly from the heart. The Universe will take care of sorting out who is 'deserving', and the timing will always be perfect.

Peace and a Merry Christmas to all my Christian friends!!

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), December 23, 2001.

But gift giving shouldn't be about "if you don't get me what's on my list you're a mean person", either. Bridal registries and baby registries are all about the "I wants", which is sad. And a nice gift doesn't have to cost a lot of money.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 23, 2001.

GT, I think I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't feel that you are referring here to the gift giver, but the gift receiver. What someone does with my gift is up to them to choose, or I have not given it freely.

And my understanding of bridal and baby shower registries is that they were actually designed to avoid lots of duplications in gifts, so they really can be very much about needs, rather than wants, not that I have anything against young folks who have lotsa wants.

Blessings,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), December 23, 2001.

Earthmama,

I do get the gist of what you are saying as well. Although I disagree with you about the registries--I think they were designed more as a marketing ploy, to handle the (what is really tacky to me) scads of people invited to these things (when in both cases it should be close friends and family only, not anyone with whom you have a nodding aquaintance). Also, you can tell a lot about someone's values by the things they put on a registry list (just my experience).

I guess what I was trying to say in my above post is that you can have a Merry Celebration both in giving an inexpensive gift and in appreciating the fact that someone thought enough of you to give you something, even if it is not on your wish list. Some of the charities have gone 'way overboard in telling you what they will and will not accept, which kind of takes some of the fun out of choosing a gift.

I happened to be changing channels sometime back (years ago) and caught an Oprah show where some "expert" was saying that it was okay for children to express displeasure over a gift received, instead of emphasizing the fact that someone was nice enough to give you something. I was always taught that you smile and say thank you and that was that.

Happy celebrations to you, Earthmama

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 23, 2001.

I stopped contributing to Toys for Tots several years ago-I had been spending about what I spent on my own kids, but suddenly there was a "guideline"-this was back in 1994-that the toy should cost a minimum of $20. I had been very proud of buying a $10 doll on special for $3.99 and some of her $10 outfits on special for $3.99 and contributing them taped together-My own children at that time weren't getting but 5 gifts and probably non of them got a $20 gift. Since then I found out also that you have to apply by mid November to recieve anything and I found some social service agencies don't turn in their leftover toys, one in particular told me they Threw them out because they couldn't be resold. I am contributing some money to a co worker who is helping one of her countrymen this Xmas.

-- Mitzi Giles (Egiles2@prodigy.net), December 23, 2001.