I am new to goats, just got two of them about 6 weeks ago. I got them from different farms, so they were strangers to each other. I've been reading posts and enjoying the wealth of information here. It's time for me to post my first question. I have an Alpine doe that is milking, and a little Saanen yearling (18 mo?)that is pregnant. The Alpine is much bigger and bossier. She has started getting mean to the Saanen. She butts her a lot and chases her around, and sometimes won't let her in the shed, even when it's raining. I feel bad for the little pregnant Saanen. I don't have another shed, or other shelter for her. When I first got them they fought for a few days, then there seemed to be peace. Now the Alpine is getting mean. Could it be she is upset that the Saanen is pregnant?

I put them both in the shed and lock it at night, as we have some preditors in the area and I want to keep them both safe. Thank you for any advice you will offer. Bobbi

-- Bobbi (da_bee_lady@hotmail.com), December 24, 2001

Answers

Response to mean doe

Hi Bobbie! Welcome to goats! Bernice will kill me but this is exactly why we had no Alpines, only crosses at the farm when we sold milk. They are mean. Without your protection this Alpine could very eaisly keep the Saanen out in the cold, keep her from never eating enough hay to keep warm or grain to grow. My girl friend and her son who used to raise and show Alpines, had a doe they had to keep locked away from everybody when everyone was bred, because she hit a yearling so hard, she aborted. I am not a fan of tethering but perhaps you could devide your small shed in half, at least until after the saanen kids. It is normal for new pen mates to fight, we even see them fighting after body shaving, like they can't figure who each other is with their hair gone. But on going bullying has to be stopped, before someone gets injured, or starves. You will also have to be very careful that the Alpine either doesnt try to steal the saanens kids from her, or tries to hurt them. I had an Alpine doe for several months, she won everywhere she went, as a yearling I was shaving her for the Livestock show, which she won, when she turned around and bit me. Made me bleed, I sold her at the next show. Good luck with this doe. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 24, 2001.

Response to mean doe

Naw..... ain't gonna kill ya Vicki, cause its the Truth!

Bobbi, I raise alpines, have a herd of 43 now, and 2 Toggs. the Toggs were raised with the Alpines so they act like them. Now my girls are so sweet, loving, gentle, etc., but just turn your back for one second and Wham, they ahve butted someone! We now have them seperated into smaller groups because of their attitudes and pregnancies.

Not all Alpines are nasty or mean, but compared to the temperments in other breeds they seem to have an attitude. You have to own an alpine I guess to understand this maybe.

To illustrate how mean mine can be. I just bought 14 new Alpines and brought back a really sweet Nubian/Lamancha mix for our dairy. Well....... let me say this, Thanks to the does we had to drive straight through 22 hrs to get back because every time we stopped they fought, we didn't dare sleep over for fear of what might happen. So as long as we were on the road all was fine. But anyways they beat up the poor munchie doe when I got home, she climbed on top of the wood pile to escape them and she was surrounded by 14 of the meanest Alpines in the breed I ended up selling her to a dear friend here who also has a dairy.

As for advice, unless you are into some good "Goatie behavior modification" I would keep them seperate.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), December 24, 2001.

Response to mean doe

Vicki!!! My Alpines aren't mean (as a rule)! One of the meanest does I have ever worked with was a horned Saanen, that was so mean to my yearling Alpine, that I finally started tethering the Alpine outside of the pen.

My experience with Alpines has been that they are really intelligent, though I do have a dumb-bell or two. The smart ones are the most dominant, if they have the size and strength to go along with it. I had one Alpine doe that was very aggressive and mean, she had been abused by little boys. I loved her, she was always good for me, but I finally got rid of her, she was just too mean to the lesser does and unpredictable around strangers. I have a couple does right now that are moderately dominant and bossy ( the queen is gentle and doesn't abuse her authority), usually it has to do with not enough feeder space.

Other than that, my Alpines are sweethearts! Even the bucks are gentle as can be, and every one of the goats can be trusted around children.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 24, 2001.

Response to mean doe

Thank you for the help here. The Alpine I have is two years old, and is a sweet goat. My children can walk her on a lead, and she never butts me or my human kids. She is only mean to the Saanen.

Neither goat has horns. I'm not worried she'll starve, as she has her feed while I feed the Alpine on the milk stand. The Alpine is a good milker, she stands nicely for me, though I had not milked a goat in over ten years, and even then it was only twice so I was no expert. She was pretty patient while I got the hang of it. I keep her on the milk stand while the Saanen eats, and then give her time to munch some hay too before I let the Alpine down. She is getting larger and larger, so I think she's eating okay.

I do wonder though, how do I tell if it's regular fighting, or if it's serious? They are both in the shed now, it's misty and foggy out and they are doing okay right now. It seems just now and then, the Alpine gets an attitude in a major way, and butts hard.

With only these two goats, it seems kind of silly to have two sheds, they would be cold and lonely. Any thoughts on how to divide the 8x8 shed so they can share warmth and not fight? Thank you again everyone. ps Sorry for the double post, I messed up. It said I couldn't post it because there was one there already with that name, so I renamed it. Did't realise it was already there. Not sure how that happened. Oops.

-- Bobbi (the_bee_lady@hotmail.com), December 24, 2001.

Response to mean doe

It sounds like they'll get over it. How are you feeding the hay, is it in a feeder? You could put a sheet of plywood down the center of the shed for a partition. The fastest way to unite them would be to bring in a new goat.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 24, 2001.

Response to mean doe

Bobbi...They're not "mean", it's mostly a survival thing with Alpines! I've had alpine/nubian and alpine/saanen and they WILL work it out. But you just have to make sure that there is enough room for everyone for everything!! I've found alpines to be just as affectionate as other breeds. Good luck!

-- Marcia (HrMr@webtv.net), December 24, 2001.

I absolutly didn't mean that they aren't loving to people, they are wonderful does, and can be trusted around kids, just not the one I had :) But they are aggressive to each other and other breeds. 6 weeks is plenty of time for them to have figured out their places, if the Alpine is still fighting with the subserviant Saanen you have to do something. She is not going to fight her then snuggle with her to keep warm! A 4 x 8 area to lay in alone, deeply bedded, is much better than the cold outside, especially when she kids unexpectedly. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 25, 2001.

Thank you again. I will try to divide the shed, so she'll be warmer. Perhaps some boards like a fence all the way up, so the air can circulate. With both does in the shed, it's pretty warm in there even on the coldest nights. I have the Saanen out on a tether outside the pen now, and she's happy browsing the little shrubby trees. She does fine on a tether, she must have been on one before. The Alpine can not tolerate it at all. She jumps and tugs and I worry she'll hurt herself. She is in the fence and mad as a hornet that the Saanen is out and she isn't. She's running in circles and prancing like I've never seen her do. I figure it's good excercise for her!

-- Bobbi (the_bee_lady@hotmail.com), December 25, 2001.

Just wanted to add a conclusion to my situation. I divided the shed, and they seem to be getting along better. Two water pails and two hay feeders seem to be the solution just now. The Alpine I have comes from a line that was bred for the ability to milk through two years without being bred again, and so far she's doing very well. Perhaps this accounts for her attitude, she's not pregnant in this season. Also I wanted to let everyone know I only tether them when I am home and watching them out the window. I wouldn't leave them unattended on a tether, though I know some do. I have been taking them for walks since we don't have a snow cover and I have a nice meadow they like to munch in. Thanks for all the advice, I enjoy this board.

-- Bobbi (the_bee_lady@hotmail.com), January 02, 2002.

Figured they'd "work" it out sooner or later, Bobbi. Some alpines take a little longer than others :-)!! One of my older milkers (who has recently passed on) would go three years between breedings and would still produce a quart or so. I have two of her daughters and I'm sure hoping that one of them will carry on that long lactation trait! Have fun.

-- Marcia (HrMr@webtv.net), January 02, 2002.