i like the thought of the M2-R. M3 build quality but with a rapid load system. the m4 is nice, but i dont like the addition of the 135 with the 35 - messy. the plastic levers don't appeal that much. any pros/cons of the M2-R from users/ex-users would be greatly appreciated! TIA,

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), December 29, 2001

Answers

Sounds good to me, Sparkie. I use an M2 (not M2R). I've been very pleased with it for 40 years. I think the addition of rapid loading makes the M2 just that much more desirable. BUT: Hove International Price Guide shows that the M2R has a rarity of 6, and goes for around $2500. The M4 in chrome cuts all that in half: rarity 3, price $1250. Are you sure you don't like the 135mm frame lines? For a $1250 difference, a fellow could really get to love them!

Besides . . . the 135 Tele-Elmar is a great lens, and great bargain . . .

Regards,

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), December 29, 2001.

I have the pre-courser to the M2R... the US Army designated M2s, (after the Army canceled the contract, Leica designated the camera M2 R and offered them for sale to the general public).

This Camera is the only older camera that I retained after going to the M6... I like it better than my M3s because of my affinity for the 35mm lens as well as the rapid loading, and even sold my M4, preferring the "feel" of the M2.

One thing that I don't hear much about on this forum is that the M2 camera (as well as late M3s) has depth of field cutouts on the rangefinder patch. This is a pair of cutouts on the top and bottom of the patch that allows you to see if the depth of field will cover the out of exact focus area for both f/5.6 and f/16 for a 50mm lens. I have found that if I use the 35mm lens, I can use these cutouts for f/4.0 and f/11 with good results.

Other than the rapid loading, this is basically an M2, so if you like that camera, you will like this version. The biggest deterrent is the rarity and of course the price (being driven by the rarity). I got mine purely by luck when I called Tamarkin many years ago for the price on an M2 and the person I dealt with said, "you'll love this..." I didn't even know about the variations (M2s and M2R), but I wanted the best M2 they had, and I got this one.

If you can find one, go for it.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), December 29, 2001.

When I owned 2 M2's I had the Leitz Quick-Load kits in both of them and they worked as well if not better than the OEM mechanism in the M4 and M6. The kit is composed of a replacement spool with a spring- loaded leader-keeper in it, and a plastic thingy that clamps over the nipple on the baseplate and serves the same function as the plastic wheel on the later bodies. I've seen them in the $75-150 range. Also, the M2 can be converted to the M4 loading, which requires a technician, some parts including a new baseplate. Even that might be less expensive than buying a collectors' item like an M2R.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), December 29, 2001.

Sparkie, The M2R is a very appealing model. I have two. It combines the M2 build and view finder with the ease of loading of the M4. The drawback is that a the Tom Abrahamsson rapid winder will not work on it. (Nor will the Leicavit MP.) Although the M2 viewfinder is my favorite--it is uncluttered, I am now using mostly M6's because of the built-in meter. The M6J viewfinder is the least cluttered of the M6 VF's; it is similar to the M4 VF with .85 magnification; that is the one I prefer.

-- Henry Chu (heninden@yahoo.com), December 29, 2001.

Sparkie

I think of the M2-R as more of a collector than user camera. It is certainly the best variety of the M2, a "deluxe" M2 with the self- timer as well as the M4 rapid loading system. Interestingly, the M2- R uses the same baseplate as the M4, so the auf-zu and arrow engraving around the baseplate latch are not there. All of the M2-R cameras have serial numbers after official end of the M2, which overlap with those of the M4: 1249xxx and 1250xxx. There were about 2,000 of these cameras made (not including M2 cameras with the M4 loading system that were not engraved with the R suffix and usually had SNs of 116xxxx).

The downsides of the M2-R: 1) as noted above, very expensive (you are competing with collectors), 2) it lacks the canted rewind lever of the M4, that makes rewinding the film much easier, and 3) it is over 30 years old and will most likely require a CLA to bring it up to specs.

Interestingly, these M2-R cameras were usually (or often) supplied with a very late version of the 50/2.0 DR Summicron, that like the camera itself, had SNs dating to 1969 (eg., 235xxxx), higher than the nominal ending of the DR range. If you can get a camera with the originally supplied 50/2.0 DR lens of that vintage, it is a real find! Good luck.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), December 29, 2001.

Thanks everyone for all your responses.

Bob: Yes, I AM having second thoughts about it because of the double-whammy price tag. I could get alot of Leica gear with that extra dough. Like more nice earlier version lenses..

Al: You have the Leica M2 KS15-4 U.S. Military version? Lucky. Lucky. Lucky! I spent almost 4 hours poring over Leica books at a bookstore doing research. Has yours got the bluish-grey metal finish?, As they also made them in chrome. Regardless; these are very rare. I think they only made a few of these with the KS15 engraving. They are therefore very expensive. I think I saw one advertised with late 50DR and system leather case for between $US8,000-10,000 ! It would be very difficult for me to justify it, as I'm not a colletor. I would use the darn thing! But, hey, it's only money. And I could spend it on worse things..Yes, the depth of field cut-outs is a very interesting feature. I'll have to see it for myself. Can be very handy I presume, meaning you wouldn't have to look at the lens barrel to see the dof etchings..

Jay: Good suggestion re: Quick load kit. But I havent come across one yet..Also is there a big difference between this and the M4 loading system?

Henry: Yeh, in total agreement. Simple is best, as they say. And so should be the viewfinder :-)

Eliot: Yes, the price would warrant it as a collectors item destined for the lock and key. But I would buy it to use it without hesitation!

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), January 02, 2002.

Sparkie,

I am not sure about the designated model you are talking about, but my camera is one of the 1966 M2s that the US Army contracted to Leica to build with the rapid load. These were contracted as M2S, but were not marked in any way on the body. The serial number range is as Eliot said in his response above, is 116XXXX. At the time when the army canceled the contract, Leica offered the remaining cameras as M2R, marked the top plate as such, and offered them to the public from 1969-1970. So the M2S is basically the M2R before there was such a thing. The base plate is not like the other M2 / M3 series in that you don't get the German directions, "Auf / Zu", and there is a different drawing on the bottom of the camera interior to correspond to the new loading, just like the ones on the M4-M6 series. In all other regards, it is an M2, cosmetically and mechanically. As I said in my first post, I didn't even know about this camera until I called Tamarkin and the salesman checked his supply of M2 cameras and saw this model. Even he was surprised it was there.

I did pay a bit more than the price for a standard M2, but nothing in the range you mentioned for the HS15-4... I am not a collector either, I just wanted an M2 so I could use a 35mm lens. 8-10 thousand dollars... I'd just buy a couple M6s and some new glass.

Good luck in your search, but don't obsess. Like Jay says, you can just get your standard M2 converted.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), January 02, 2002.

The prices some have mentioned here are way too high. An M2-R with 50/2.0 DR of the same vintage in nice cosmetic and working condition (E+ or better) would probably be worth about $ 3500-4000 or so. An M2 "S" (KS15-4) with the combi case having the miliary contract numbers etc. is probably worth about $ 2000-2500 (not more).

Occasionally, I have seen more complete KS15-4 sets, including M2 camera, combi case with KS15-4 and contract numbers, 50/2.0 DR + eyes, 35/2.0 first version (8-element) lens, early 135/2.8 RF lens, and warranty certificate made out to US Air Force with correct SNs of camera plus three lenses. The complete set may be worth $ 6000 or so, but this amount is far too high for just camera and case. These complete sets with the originally supplied lenses are very rare. These cameras and lenses tend to be found heavily used.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), January 03, 2002.