Hi, I am not sure but I think I got a good deal on a Leica M6 TTL 0.85 Dragon/2000 New Only 500 cameras made $3595 from Sam Shoshan. Does anyone have any info on the going price of this camera? Any info would be much appreciated. Best regards, John

-- John Abela (jamriman@yahoo.com), January 05, 2002

Answers

Basically this is an .85 version of the Black Paint Millenium. (I spell it with one "n").

I've seen them go for around $3200.00 in Hong Kong sites.

The thing is, are you going to shoot with it, or collect it, or what?

If you are going to use it, be aware that the rewind knob is the old style knob. Takes a while to get there.

If you are going to collect it, be aware that the Millenium seems to be more sought after than the Dragon, even though they made more of them...

A lot of folks don't like the dragon on the back. And, of course, if the serial number is "evil", the Asian collectors won't touch it...

Confused? :^)

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.con), January 05, 2002.

'if the serial number is "evil", the Asian collectors won't touch it...' as in 4, 44, 4444, 44444,...a string of 4s.

I agree with Steve; the Millenniun (I spell it with two 'n's) is the more collectable even though Leica made more of them;the Millenniun is a 'true' Leica since the idea originated in Leica and not at its distributor's. Or so my mischievous mind leads me to think.

-- Erik X (xx@xx.com), January 06, 2002.

Millenium is once a thousand year occurance

Dragon is once a twelve year occurance

However, not all dragon coincides with millenium

Dragon AND millenium is only once in three thousand year occurance

Dragon/2000 is the only Dragon millenium since Christ.

There will not be any Dragon/3000, Dragon/4000

The next dragon AND millenium will be Dragon/5000

Dragon/2000 is much much rarer than any Millenium.

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 06, 2002.

At year 2000, "Millenium" memorablias were hot items. However by now many millenium goods are being cleared out at deep discount.

Last weekend, Holt Renfrew in Toronto clear out many such millenium items. I picked up a Holt Renfrew 2000 silver plated box, originally sold at $45, for only $5.

Who cares about millenium. It has no particular personal meaning.

One the other hand, Dragon is personal. Every twelth Chinese is a dragon. Within a decade or two, when China's GDP matches that of USA, the demand for luxury good will increase, and those 500 Dragon/2000 Leicas will fetch far high price than millenium edition

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 06, 2002.

There is a facination with numbers in orient. Number 4 is bad, because it sounds like 'death'.

The worst number is 14, it sounds like "sat say"-- "Sure Death"

I am no kidding, real estate agents in Toronto know how hard to get orientals to buy property with number 4, 14, 44, 444 in 14th avenue...

On the otherhand, number 8 is consider very desirable, it is suppose to bring great fortune, 88 is even better. A few years ago the number "8" automobile license plate was auctioned off in Hong Kong at astromical price.

R8 is good, connocts "A wealthy fella"

A 28/f2.8 lens is very good, 2828 sounds like "e fa e fa" and has a connoctation of "get rich fast "

M8 is not good, its sounds like "umm fa" in Cantonese, "Never get rich"

:)

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 06, 2002.

Martin, really, thanks for one of the most amusing posts since I joined this forum! fascinating stuff.

My daughter was born on the 8th of August at 8 in the morning weighing 8 pounds 8 ounces. Auspicious or what?

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 06, 2002.

Sam Shoshan's prices are generally pretty competitive. Though some items are a wee overpriced. I've bought things from him in the past and they've all been good deals. I wouldn't worry about having gotten a bad deal from him and just enjoy your camera.

-- Richard V. Le (rvle@yahoo.com), January 06, 2002.

Hello, Thank you all for such interesting, stimulating info! All the best for the New Year! John

-- John Abela (jamriman@yahoo.com), January 06, 2002.

Martin- A most interesting post! An excellent insight into oriental thinking on numbers. I have been in may high-rise buildings, mostly in Chicago. You'd be surprised how many of these do not have a 13th floor! As you look at the floor buttons, they go-- ...9-10-11-12-14, etc... People do not want to live on the 13th floor. These same people worry about Friday the 13th on the calendar! (Of course, these buildings are not inhabited primarily by orientals, in Chicago, USA) It is also a good estimate on the future appreciation of Leica equipment.

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), January 06, 2002.

Boy, I can't wait for the commemorative Leica M7 2008-Year of the Rat, Leica M7-2 2018-Year of the Dog, and Leica M7-P 2028-Year of the Monkey. 2038 and beyond? I'll probably in Leica heaven (hopefully) by then!

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), January 06, 2002.

John,

The price you paid was the original lauch price for the Dragon a year ago. Since then the price has come down a little because this camera did not sell as well as expected. Leica launched too many limited models for any to be of investment value, except for the Millenium since it was the first black paint. The Dragon is a nice little camera. Use it and enjoy!

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), January 06, 2002.

Just a bit OT, I'm not trying to raise a stink or start moralizing. Nor I'm an trying to be PC. But the term "orientals" is a bit outdated and a lot of Asians, including myself, don't like it or it's implications. Just for you information...

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), January 07, 2002.

...forgot to add, the word "Asians" is more generally accepted. Again, don't want to seem like I'm lecturing. "Orientals" popped up a couple of times on this thread and I had to wince. Though on a lighter note, my Puerto Rican super likes calling me "chinito" (little chinaman). Of course, I'm neither Chinese, nor little, but no matter...

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), January 07, 2002.

Year of the Rooster M6 $6900

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 07, 2002.

There was a gold plated Leica M6 Gold Dragon special edition, with Summicron 50/2 (1995), only 300 specially made to order by Schmidt Scientific of Kuala Lumpur for Chinese Leicaphiles

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 07, 2002.

"Oriental" usually refers to China and Japan, Korea, where Kanji character are used. Orient is only a subset of broader "Asia"

Oriental Art, Oriental Philosophy are quite common usage.

http://www.dianegenreorientalart.com/

Southern Asia has quite different culture

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 07, 2002.

Chinese Horoscope include 12 animals.

Canada Post is in this Chinese Horoscope business in a big way

Began with 1997, Canada Post has since issued Year of the Ox, Year of the Tiger, Rabbit, Dragon, and Snake stamps, first day covers and giant posters. Some of the earlier horoscope stamps and posters have already appreciated in price substantially.

The Royal Canadian Mint is also in Chinese Horoscope business in a big way. They also issued Horoscope Gold coins, silver coins, selling like hot cakes.

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 07, 2002.

Martin, your points are well taken. My comments come from my experiences living in Chicago/NYC where there is definitely a wide mixtures of people from all over asia. Outside of Oriental studies and the like in academic situations, I find that most asians don't like the term "oriental."

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), January 07, 2002.

Hi

This type of post is the precise reason I avoided Leicas for years when they perfectly fitted the bill of providing small, light rugged high quality cameras.

The first time I went in to a Leica store - the guy asked me if I wanted a "user" camera to which I replied - what other reason would i buy a camera.

It transpires that in Leica speak - "user" means one that is totally trashed; the other type being "collector" as in stupid jewellry edition that never leave the box.

I wish Leica would take the picture taking market a bit more seriously and dump all these ridiculous collectors. It might even expand their user base a bit more.

Tapas

-- Tapas Maiti (tapasmaiti@aol.com), January 07, 2002.

But Leica makes a lot of money from these limited editions. I think Leica in these few years has done a lot for the "user" market such as bringing out new products and lowering prices. A new M6 is about $700 cheaper now then it was four years ago. At the same time Leica manages to preserving that brand image of exclusivity and mystique which these limited editions. So let the collectors cover the margins while the users get better deals.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), January 07, 2002.

Actually I don't think that the Leica M series is that overpriced (the R is another story) if you compare it with other top of the line pro cameras - The Canon Eos 1v with 35mm 1.4 isn't exactly cheap either.

When I was trying to purchase a new 35 F2 ASPH - I was told that it was in short supply because Leica was concentrating its manufacturing on its "Black Paint" special edition - apparently popular with collectors because the finish wears off quickly; I suppose they can pretend that the camera is a "user" version without having to do something as prosaic as taking pictures. Needless to say I wasn't prepared to pay extra for the privelege.

I repeat - the Leica M6 is a unique a exceptional photographic too; maybe rangefinders would be deservedly more popular (note the benefit of Voigtlander and Konica entering the arean) if it was marketed as such.

Tapas

-- Tapas Maiti (tapasmaiti@aol.com), January 08, 2002.

US Post Office is going to issue Chiese Year of the Horse stamp at Feb 11, 2002 for the coming Chinese New Year,Feb 12, 2002

This new stamp has Chinese character " Âí Äê"( Year of the Horse) and "Happy New Year" in English

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), January 12, 2002.